New Amplifier; Upgrade from Caspian M2

[SteveR750]

Given I have extended the shortlist beyond the MF 6 amps, I thought it would be easier to start a new thread, if for no other reason it's easier to search for if anyone else is in the same position.

To set the scene, I have been using my system of Laptop, Dacmagic plus, Caspian M2 and D18s for a couple of years without even thinking too much about changing it, apart from an ongoing ebay "search" for the chord Qute DAC, which I considered to be the only worthile next step up from the DM+

That's been fine until I moved house in December with my partner and her family; whereas previously I had my own place, there are now anything between 3 and 6 of us in the house depnding on which of our respective offspring are home at any one time. This has resulted in my using headphones again, and recently bought some DT880s and a Musical Fideility M1 HPA headphone amp, which is esentially a low power class A amp. Right from the go, the little (huge?) HPA has been deeply impressive, although the headphone amp on the DM+ isn't world beating, it's not too shabby either. I'm well aware of the beguiling tones of Class A, as I've a collection of guitars and amps replete with EL84s and 12AX7s that are switchable A and A/B modes; but never listened to an audio class A amp. It got me thinking again about the MF 6i, and the even more brutish M6 500i; but the gentle persuasive tenacity of a terrier with a bone Cno and some other forum members have convinced me there are perhaps better alternatives at the same price point.

Room is large, 25ft x 15ft, into an extended open arch loung of half as long again. I listen to a mix of music, a little classical and opera, a bit of folk, a lot of rock, blues and Pop. I use spotify a lot as a background "radio".

the good points about my system are it's big sound, it's dynamic and exciting. I like to hear how hard a drum is hit, try Dire Straits "where do you think you're going" at the end of the track, or Joan Armatrading, Me Myself I - that tom toms in that are extremely dynamic. I think a drum kit is particularly difficult for a system to rnder lifelike, simply because there is so much energy to convey, a real drum kit is bloody loud when you really hit it hard, yet can be very soft when played gently. If a system can get a drum kit sounding right, then the dynamic content is going to fine for me. The M2 is especially good at these dynamic transients, it might have a lot less power on paper than the K2, but is hits a lot harder and faster, the downside though is it can get a bit overexcited. At high levels its starts to get a little aggressive, a bit shouty; and this is where that Class A warmth might just be what is needed.

Here is the shortlist I've drawn up, mostly based upon what's around used. I'm not going to buy a brand new box, as I don't have the time or inclination to search out demos of exotic equipment, as it means driving long distances / taking full days out etc; so buy used, if I don't like it, sell it on.

Electrocompaniet ECI-5 (I've read it's a bit polite, so already I'm not convinced I'd like this)

Electro EC4.7 with AW 2 x 120M or the AW250R. See above?

Pathos Logos - read some reviews that match well to proAc, but valves? Not a fan in audio equipment, it's bad enough replacing guitar amp valves.

Plinius Hiato, looks like a massive fist in a velvet glove, this could the very interesting.

Luxman L-550AX bit of a dark horse this, I've seen it pop up in several threads, but 20W is not going to be enough, is it Cno?

AMS35i - I've been convinced this is probably at the top of my list. Big powerful dynamic sound, massive control and yet fluidly musical. On paper it sounds (reads) perfect, shame it's only 35W but I'll accept form others' experience that it's enough.

M6i

M6500i

Given the choice of both at roughly the same price I;d opt for the 500i, knowing that if I upgraded the speakers to something more difficult, there is power in hand to cope.

I also hankered after the big ATC amps, a freind had one driving some B&W speakers. the latter were not impressive, being somewhat veiled, but it was an extremely tight and well controlled sound.

 

[drummerman]

I once heard a Plinius combination with some large Monitor Audio Golds at Movement Audio, my local dealer and it sounded awesome during the brief and very loud listen (I commented on here about it at the time). No idea how it would be to live with and at lower volumes but you could feel it.

Whenever I heard a Musical Fidelity System I have always found them to sound boring (to me). Very hifi, no emotion that is apart from one of their half sized component systems, the model which I can't remember. That I found to be animated. - I remember there was a small, tiny, entry level NAD system with small (NAD) speakers next to a big bruiser system from MF and even the dealer agreed the NAD sounded nicer at low volume ... (which is what most folks probably listen at most of the time). Of course turn it up and it likely won't keep pace.

I also find Naim very good with anything to do with rythm, especially drums. They may only be rated low'ish wattage but seem to hit much harder. Vlad will no doubt mention high input sensitivity and resulting distortion ... Dunno but it shure sounds good and they usually have potent power supplies for the rated wattage so under-engineering is not an issue.

Similarely, Cyrus scores on the rythm and pace front. Their Lyric systems having been particularely praised by some and the higher powered one should drive most speakers.

I personally have never heard the big MF Class A amps so can't comment on that but I certainly wouldn't choose their other amplifiers for their pace or rythmic abilities.

 

[drummerman]

Yes, the Tucana looks solid.

Another potential issue is second hand value with MF. They usually heavily discount within a year of launch and I would guess it will have an impact on s/h prices. Good if you are buying s/h of course.

 

[SteveR750]

Thanks DM.

I'm no fan of Cyrus, been looked at the thick end of £8k before it started to work for me, plus I think it's ugly to look at if that has any ultimate bearing.

The more I read, the more I am interested in the SIA250. I suspect the MFs might be a touch too warm, and Electro too polite. The Class A amps just simply not loud enough, and I do like it loud at times, getting a drum kit to sound realistically as if there is one in the room isn't the usual listening levels, but for me that's half the point.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/nad-c390dd-or-musical-fidelity-m6i-or-atc-sia2-150-mk2

I should add the Leema Tucana into the mix too, but I can't find any good used examples at the moment.

 

[Esra]

Ever heard a modern class d or hybrid?Auralic Merak,NAD M22/M12,NAD M2,T+A Poweramp balanced,some newer AVM stuff,Peachtree grand x1 to name some.Give them a listen if you can.Maybe there is something within you are just looking for.

 

[Craig M.]

At high levels its starts to get a little aggressive, a bit shouty

Classic sign of running out of power imo, if you're happy to go 2nd hand and experiment why not look at some of the better active monitors and use your amps pre-outs to see what you think? Something like some Event Opals might be a bit of an eye opener and I'm certain you'll never run out of power with them.

 

[CnoEvil]

The more I read, the more I am interested in the SIA250. I suspect the MFs might be a touch too warm, and Electro too polite. The Class A amps just simply not loud enough, and I do like it loud at times, getting a drum kit to sound realistically as if there is one in the room isn't the usual listening levels, but for me that's half the point.

I think the SIA 250 is a good shout.

- Some of the MFs might be too warm

- IMO. Don't write off Electro as too polite, or Class A as not loud enough (Class A with Proac needs very serious consideration).

- Ayre may also be a brand that would work for you.

- There is also Croft, Luxman and Accuphase.

 

[iceman16]

How about a Devialet 120 or 200

 

[Electro]

The more I read, the more I am interested in the SIA250. I suspect the MFs might be a touch too warm, and Electro too polite. The Class A amps just simply not loud enough, and I do like it loud at times, getting a drum kit to sound realistically as if there is one in the room isn't the usual listening levels, but for me that's half the point.

I think the SIA 250 is a good shout.

- Some of the MFs might be too warm

- IMO. Don't write off Electro as too polite, or Class A as not loud enough (Class A with Proac needs very serious consideration).

- Ayre may also be a brand that would work for you.

- There is also Croft, Luxman and Accuphase.

I agree , Electro amps are sometimes described as being polite or smooth but it is not really the case , they get labelled this way because they sound so clean and lacking in distortion even at very high spl's , all that is missing from the sound is transient distortion that makes many other amps sound bright and forward , believe me when I say they will hit very very hard and drum strike transients are preserved almost perfectly because they simply will not clip or distort because of the massive amount of current and transient power available even into loads as low as 0.5 of an ohm .

If you look into the history of Electrocompaniet and the work of Matti Otala and Jan Lohstroh it should give you some insight into the design and why the amps really sound like nothing at all , just music *smile*

I would urge you to try one at home possibly from Audio Destination if you ask them nicely . *smile*

 

[Vladimir]

My choice would go for Electrocompaniet, Bryston, Krell, Parasound or just add two M2 power amps.

 

[SteveR750]

You cannot bridge the M2 power amp, it's a bi-amp option only, and am not interested.

I called MF and spoke to a chap called Dave, explained the M6i to M6si changes, effectively a completely new amp, and different sonically from the M6 500i, so tomorrow I shall be auditioning the 6si and the ATC SIA250 in Bath. Bit of a trek, but needs to be done. They also have an M2 and some D20s (I hope to hell I don't walk out with those too) so I'll have a good reference baseline.

I haven't discounted the Electro, I''ve researched a bit further so if i get the chance to audition I will. I have eliminated the Sugdens and AMS35i (sorry Cno! does my class A guitar amp allow me honorary membership?). The 6si has the M1 DAC onboard, so I can offset the DM+ and the Caspian against it.

 

[SteveR750]

The more I read, the more I am interested in the SIA250. I suspect the MFs might be a touch too warm, and Electro too polite. The Class A amps just simply not loud enough, and I do like it loud at times, getting a drum kit to sound realistically as if there is one in the room isn't the usual listening levels, but for me that's half the point.

I think the SIA 250 is a good shout.

- Some of the MFs might be too warm

- IMO. Don't write off Electro as too polite, or Class A as not loud enough (Class A with Proac needs very serious consideration).

- Ayre may also be a brand that would work for you.

- There is also Croft, Luxman and Accuphase.

I agree , Electro amps are sometimes described as being polite or smooth but it is not really the case , they get labelled this way because they sound so clean and lacking in distortion even at very high spl's , all that is missing from the sound is transient distortion that makes many other amps sound bright and forward , believe me when I say they will hit very very hard and drum strike transients are preserved almost perfectly because they simply will not clip or distort because of the massive amount of current and transient power available even into loads as low as 0.5 of an ohm .

If you look into the history of Electrocompaniet and the work of Matti Otala and Jan Lohstroh it should give you some insight into the design and why the amps really sound like nothing at all , just music *smile*

I would urge you to try one at home possibly from Audio Destination if you ask them nicely . *smile*

Is this the right Audio Destination?

 

[DocG]

How about a Devialet 120 or 200

I would second that suggestion, Steve. Especially since Devialet has a SAM-protocol for your D18s. SAM will turn your Proacs into a whole new pair of speakers, trust me! (Taking your loudspeakers to the dealer for a demo might be less obvious, but if a home demo is feasible: do it!).

 

[SteveR750]

How about a Devialet 120 or 200

I would second that suggestion, Steve. Especially since Devialet has a SAM-protocol for your D18s. SAM will turn your Proacs into a whole new pair of speakers, trust me! (Taking your loudspeakers to the dealer for a demo might be less obvious, but if a home demo is feasible: do it!).

That looks intriguing, does it work? How does it work?

I'm impressed; powerful enough, all the inputs you'd need, including wi fi, and a decent 192k USB DAC, I like the bridgeable capability of the 200. I think they have to go on the shortlist, especially if the SAM works. The speaker / room interaction is the elephant in the corner - it makes or breaks a system, and mine sounds completely different in my new house compared to the old. Completely different. I really should spend some time experimenting with the DSP built into J River, as that has a whole section for calibrating for room acoustics.

 

[iceman16]

Steve..with that size of room, your D18s "may" be fall short of what you want to achieve regardless of amp and source. So don't dismiss that your speakers are holding back to your needs

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Steve

You should also consider and try Hegel's new H160 amp/DAC and also their H300 amp/DAC. The Hegel's will rein in and firm up the performance your speakers particularly with their tight fisted, punchy and powerful bass

H160 is just top VFM

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

I called MF and spoke to a chap called Dave, explained the M6i to M6si changes, effectively a completely new amp, and different sonically from the M6 500i, so tomorrow I shall be auditioning the 6si and the ATC SIA250 in Bath. Bit of a trek, but needs to be done. They also have an M2 and some D20s (I hope to hell I don't walk out with those too) so I'll have a good reference baseline.

I haven't discounted the Electro, I''ve researched a bit further so if i get the chance to audition I will. I have eliminated the Sugdens and AMS35i (sorry Cno! does my class A guitar amp allow me honorary membership?). The 6si has the M1 DAC onboard, so I can offset the DM+ and the Caspian against it.

Of course you can have honorary memberhip and I quite understand your thinking.

The new Si range are supposed to be a good step up but I haven't heard them....so I'm delighted that you are. It will be an interesting bake-off.

FWIW. I think the Devialet suggestion is a good one and should be high on your list.....again, I haven't heard it, but it's gaining quite a reputation from those who have heard a lot of different options.

Proac can sound glorious with the right amp but can tip into brittleness with the wrong one......if the shop in Bath has an Arcam A49, that is also worth a listen (being Class G, it has that Class A sound but with more power and less heat ssues).

What is class G? It's an operating mode that employs tiered devices in the output stage, operating at different voltage levels, and is thereby much more efficient, producing much less heat on typical dynamic program. This saves on heat generation, for a given power output capability, and thus gives the design engineer an extra heat budget that he can choose to spend in various other ways, for a given chassis package having a given heat dissipation capability.
How does this class G work, and why is it more efficient? In a conventional power amplifier, say the ubiquitous class AB type, there is only one voltage rails for the power output stage. This rails voltage represents the absolute maximum that the power amplifier can output (and, incidentally, some internal circuit losses reduce this a bit). The output devices in the power output stage act merely as gates or valves, letting out some portion of this rails voltage to your loudspeakers, this portion depending on the varying instantaneous signal level (which in turn depends on the varying program and of course on your volume control setting). So some portion of the rails voltage is let out by the output stage gate/valve to your loudspeakers - but what happens to the rest of the rails voltage that is not let out? Simply speaking, that remainder must be dissipated internally by the amplifier's output stage, dissipated as heat.
Now, with typical dynamic program (music, film soundtrack, etc.), the instantaneous program signal level is far below its maximum peak output for most of the time, and thus is also far below the power amplifier's maximum peak voltage output for most of the time. This means that, for the majority of the program's varying amplitudes, and for the majority of the time, only a tiny fraction of the rails voltage is let through the output stage gate to your loudspeakers, and the remaining large fraction of the high rails voltage causes pressure on the output stage gate, forcing this gate to expend energy (and dissipate the resulting heat) holding back the high voltage/pressure from these high voltage rails in this output stage.
To understand this better intuitively, consider as an analogy that exit tube at the base of Hoover dam, which can shoot a stream of water for hundreds of feet. Consider the gate valve that closes or opens this exit tube to varying degree. There's tremendous water pressure on this gate valve, precisely because the Hoover dam is so high, just like the rails voltage being high on a power output stage. Now imagine that you had to do the work of holding that gate valve partially open, to varying degrees, say by holding your 'very large' hand palm over part of the exit tube, thus holding back some portion of that tremendous water pressure.
If you held your large hand over most of that exit tube, letting out only a small stream of water (like letting out only a small signal to the loudspeaker), you'd still have to fight to hold back most of that tremendous pressure in the exit tube, coming from the high dam above (like the high voltage rails) - and fighting to hold back water against this pressure would be hard work, causing you to burn calories and sweat (to dissipate the excessive heat generated in your body by this hard work). Conversely, if you moved your hand palm off to the side, so as to let most of the water flow freely out of the exit tube (like letting a large signal out to your loudspeakers), you'd then scarcely feel any pressure on your palm at all, since all the pent up pressure from the dam above would be going into pushing huge amounts of water out the exit tube (driving your loudspeakers), and you'd scarcely have to do any work, so you wouldn't get hot nor have to break a sweat to dissipate heat.
This example is analogous to the typical power output stage operating with the typical single, high voltage rails. When the signal amplitude output to your loudspeakers is small, compared with the amplifier's maximum output amplitude capability, then the output stage gate valve has to do a lot of work, to 'hold back' that tremendous pressure/voltage from the single high voltage rails, to keep it from being output to your loudspeaker, and all this work generates heat that then must be dissipated. It probably seems counterintuitive to think that a power amplifier would have to work hard, in order to merely push out a small signal into your loudspeakers. But this dam analogy helps us to view the situation differently, as instead pertaining to holding back most of the high pressure/voltage from a high dam or a high rails voltage, and to the work that must be done, and consequent heat that is wastefully generated, even when only a small signal is output.
Everyone wants power amplifiers to have lots of rated power output capability (indeed, this numbers game is overvalued as a selling point). But, to get a higher maximum rated power output capability, one needs to raise the rails voltage, and that increases the pressure on the output stage gate valve by making the dam higher, which in turn makes the output stage work harder to hold back this higher voltage/pressure and keep it from getting out to your loudspeakers, and this harder work creates more wasteful heat to be dissipated, which then forces the chassis heat dissipation package to be made larger and thus more expensive.
In any given amplifier chassis package, there are limits on how much heat can be dissipated (long term), hence limits on how much heat can be generated by the circuit, therefore limits on how high a rails voltage can be allowed. When making an expensive monoblock power amplifier, the design engineer can always make the single channel chassis a little bigger and a little more expensive, in order to be able to raise the rails voltage and thus claim a higher spec for that vaunted maximum power output capability. But in a multichannel power amplifier, and certainly within the modest size constraints of a multichannel receiver, the chassis package's modest heat dissipation capability cannot be substantially increased, so there is a severe limit on the allowable maximum for rails voltage - at least with the conventional configuration, where the output stage works off a single high rails voltage.
Enter the class G output stage configuration. The basic concept of class G is quite simple. Class G simply has more than one voltage rail, and the plural rails are set at different voltages. The output stage uses only the lowest voltage rails when outputting small signals to your loudspeakers, and then changes to use higher voltage rails only when the instantaneous signal level rises enough to warrant this change. To return to our analogy, that's like having two dams as water sources. When you only need to output a small stream of water, you use a farmer's shallow pond with a small dam, so it's very little work for you to hold back and control the small water pressure (like small rails voltage) coming from a hole at this dam's bottom, and you don't work up much of a sweat doing this easy work (you don't generate a lot of heat that needs to be dissipated). Then, only once in a while, you need to output a big burst of water, but only for a brief time. So you quickly switch to using Hoover dam as your water source, and you can then output that large but brief peak burst of water.
Admittedly, during your use of Hoover dam, you are working very hard holding back and controlling the much higher pressure/voltage, so you are temporarily generating heat at a very high rate. But, and this is the crucial but, if the need for these large bursts only occurs a small fraction of overall time, and if each large burst is brief in duration, then your overall average work output over the moderate to long term will be low, and thus generation of heat that needs to be dissipated will be low. In point of fact, virtually all program we listen to, via audio power amplifiers, does have this blessed characteristic, of having an average level much lower than the peak level, and of having the peaks occur only occasionally, and of having peaks that are each brief in duration. Thus, on average, the work you do or a power output stage does, and the heat you or the power output stage generates and must dissipate, is not much more than it would be if you were using the small pond with the small dam all the time.
When the output stage outputs a signal whose level at that moment is low, then the output stage only has to act as a gate valve for the lowest voltage rails, so it only has to do the work of holding back this lower voltage/pressure, which is far easier work than having to hold back the high voltage/pressure from a high rails voltage, so far less heat is generated.
Again, this heat efficiency advantage for class G depends on the fact that virtually all the program we listen to does indeed have an output level that stays below the lower rails voltage most of the time, hence also has an average output level below this point, with only occasional peaks that are brief in duration (thus, any given single peak does not last long enough, and any series of peaks is not temporally dense enough, to severely impact the chassis' heat dissipation package, which functions over the long term)

Incidentally, class G can be made even more efficient, with even less heat generation, by simply making the voltage lower on the low voltage rails, i.e. a smaller fraction (say one fourth rather than half) of the voltage on the high voltage rails. This works so long as the lower rails voltage is above the average program level - which is easy to accomplish, since the average level of most program material is merely 1/10 the peak level or even less.
Thanks to class G's heat efficiency, the designer suddenly has a substantial heat budget surplus to play with (which was previously needed to support a given conventional class AB power amplifier having single rails voltage, but now with class G no longer needs to be accommodated as a constraint). The designer can make use of this gift, this new heat budget bonus, in many ways. He could make his product package smaller and less expensive. He could increase its rated maximum output power capability. He could accomplish some other sonically beneficial design moves. Or he could engineer a customized mixture or blend of these various benefits.

 

[iceman16]

Steve.. I thought you have just eliminated AMS 35i one of the best amp Ive ever heard. FYI..not Cno mentioned Ive demoed Plinius Hautonga and Hiato which are far more power but I settled down to the 35i (in my room)!

 

[SteveR750]

Ice, I realise that, but it needs to be one step at a time. At the moment, I'm of the opinion that the amp tonal balance is lost in the new room, the Acs are not overly bright - I've tried a NAD C390D and an A19 remember a couple of years ago, I'm afraid the latter was dull to my ears in every sense. The NAD was livelier, but lacked any sense of scale and rhythm, it was a tad boring to listen to. The M2 is exciting, juts a little too much at times.

The M6si is apparently a more forward lively presentation than the M6i. The 500i is also more laid back and smoother than the si (this was MF talking, not my words). From what I have read the 6si is a fuller sound than the IAS250 as well, so on paper the 6si is where I'd like to be - a warmer version of the M2 with a bit more wallop for those louder evenings, which to be fair are few and far between, and involve copious amount of red wine and Spotify.....

I really want to audition the Devialet. Where is David?! (I've sent a request thing through the Devialet website). Coventry next!

 

[Electro]

The more I read, the more I am interested in the SIA250. I suspect the MFs might be a touch too warm, and Electro too polite. The Class A amps just simply not loud enough, and I do like it loud at times, getting a drum kit to sound realistically as if there is one in the room isn't the usual listening levels, but for me that's half the point.

I think the SIA 250 is a good shout.

- Some of the MFs might be too warm

- IMO. Don't write off Electro as too polite, or Class A as not loud enough (Class A with Proac needs very serious consideration).

- Ayre may also be a brand that would work for you.

- There is also Croft, Luxman and Accuphase.

I agree , Electro amps are sometimes described as being polite or smooth but it is not really the case , they get labelled this way because they sound so clean and lacking in distortion even at very high spl's , all that is missing from the sound is transient distortion that makes many other amps sound bright and forward , believe me when I say they will hit very very hard and drum strike transients are preserved almost perfectly because they simply will not clip or distort because of the massive amount of current and transient power available even into loads as low as 0.5 of an ohm .

If you look into the history of Electrocompaniet and the work of Matti Otala and Jan Lohstroh it should give you some insight into the design and why the amps really sound like nothing at all , just music *smile*

I would urge you to try one at home possibly from Audio Destination if you ask them nicely . *smile*

Is this the right Audio Destination?

Yes that's the place .

I bought my amps from Audio Destination , it is a family business and I found Mike and Caroline very helpful indeed , I am sure with a quick phone call you could arrange something .

 

[iceman16]

Ice, I realise that, but it needs to be one step at a time. At the moment, I'm of the opinion that the amp tonal balance is lost in the new room, the Acs are not overly bright - I've tried a NAD C390D and an A19 remember a couple of years ago, I'm afraid the latter was dull to my ears in every sense. The NAD was livelier, but lacked any sense of scale and rhythm, it was a tad boring to listen to. The M2 is exciting, juts a little too much at times.

The M6si is apparently a more forward lively presentation than the M6i. The 500i is also more laid back and smoother than the si (this was MF talking, not my words). From what I have read the 6si is a fuller sound than the IAS250 as well, so on paper the 6si is where I'd like to be - a warmer version of the M2 with a bit more wallop for those louder evenings, which to be fair are few and far between, and involve copious amount of red wine and Spotify.....

I really want to audition the Devialet. Where is David?! (I've sent a request thing through the Devialet website). Coventry next!

Steve.. Im not speaking for Cno or whatever.."pure" class A is at it is. You want boom and base there are some, you want tizz, there's a lot.. the AMS does'nt do it neither. It's the "fluid" and soft with detail and punch that captures me!

 

[SteveR750]

I spoke with Mike this afternoon. His opinion was that I'd probably find the Electro too polite, apart from the 250R power amp he's got, but that's outside of my budget. He's not dealing with them much any more on the basis they have become more involved with multi media gear. Mike's suggestion was to take a look at some of the Moon amps. Can't recall which ones, although I made some notes. One to follow up later.

 

[drummerman]

Those Hegel's sure look interesting (not necesseraly nice though beauty is in they eye ... ) and I had a trawl through a few youtube vids. Impressive as far as it is possible to gauge anything by youtube.

They also review well.

 

[SteveR750]

Ice, I realise that, but it needs to be one step at a time. At the moment, I'm of the opinion that the amp tonal balance is lost in the new room, the Acs are not overly bright - I've tried a NAD C390D and an A19 remember a couple of years ago, I'm afraid the latter was dull to my ears in every sense. The NAD was livelier, but lacked any sense of scale and rhythm, it was a tad boring to listen to. The M2 is exciting, juts a little too much at times.

The M6si is apparently a more forward lively presentation than the M6i. The 500i is also more laid back and smoother than the si (this was MF talking, not my words). From what I have read the 6si is a fuller sound than the IAS250 as well, so on paper the 6si is where I'd like to be - a warmer version of the M2 with a bit more wallop for those louder evenings, which to be fair are few and far between, and involve copious amount of red wine and Spotify.....

I really want to audition the Devialet. Where is David?! (I've sent a request thing through the Devialet website). Coventry next!

Steve.. Im not speaking for Cno or whatever.."pure" class A is at it is. You want boom and base there are some, you want tizz, there's a lot.. the AMS does'nt do it neither. It's the "fluid" and soft with detail and punch that captures me!

Boom and Tizz. I've not heard any system yet that doesn't have an element of that which reminds you it's not the real thing live, but I understand what you are saying. The HPAP is after all a min pure class A amp, and I know how good that is. You cannot buy a new AMS35i, that much I have established today, so it's used only. The problem (for me) is that Class A with what I *think* is sufficient power is lots of £££. I can envisage spending up to around £3k on upgarding the amp, but then the DAC needs attention, and at the price, built in DACs are going to be a compromise (obviously if you're also designing and selling seprate boxes)

 

[CnoEvil]

I spoke with Mike this afternoon. His opinion was that I'd probably find the Electro too polite, apart from the 250R power amp he's got, but that's outside of my budget. He's not dealing with them much any more on the basis they have become more involved with multi media gear. Mike's suggestion was to take a look at some of the Moon amps. Can't recall which ones, although I made some notes. One to follow up later.

I had a Moon i7 on home dem (as well as a Coda CSi) for a long weekend. I personally found the Moon "shouty", which was very surprising, as everything I'd read said it was very refined.....maybe it was the match with my system. I thought the Coda was very nice, in a delicate and subtle sort of way. History relates which amp I thought was easily the best.