Ortofon m2 black sibilance cartridge or stylus? or something else

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DougK1

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Hi Doug im thinking you might be onto something was sort of thinking something like it my self Metal does sometimes have to much going on in it I find its best with nice punchy bass and a nice clear sound. Ive always used elliptical stylus on my Decks I had a Project 1 before this it was a great Deck I ran that for 15 years with no issues and im pretty sure ive got loads of albums that are not very well recorded.
Maybe elliptical might be the way to go🤞 They're much cheaper than the exotic profiles so could be worth a stab.
 

DougK1

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Ha yes so was leaning towards the VM95ML ? or would you think id have better results with say the 95E and try elliptical again?
Results will be very much in the ear of the beholder :) You could always opt for the ML and if it doesn't cut it try a 95E stylus. I'm hoping the cart bodies are common so a simple stylus swap. Other members with more experience of AT will be able to confirm. I moved to Nagaoka some years ago so my experience of current AT models is lacking.
 
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My2Cents

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950 hours is about 1 LP per day over 4.5 years (possibly a tad more)?
Perhaps the new amp. highlighted the sibilance/stylus wear issue.
Stylus life can vary depending on many factors and many so called 'experts' conservatively recommend 1,000 hours.
Sadly, if the stylus is worn and, if what you are hearing is the result of this wear, you can be sure that your LP's will have suffered damage too

People who are playing old record collections (that were perhaps played on not so great equipment back in the day) may actually be doing damage to their expensive new stylus right off the bat... even if they thoroughly clean the records before spinning them on their new high end decks.

Vinyl is great, but it's a bit like owning a vintage car, constant maintenance (which doesn't come for free).
This is one of the things the hi-fi magazines don't really stress about the cost of using vinyl as a source. Vinyl needs to be cleaned regularly along with the stylus and the tt 'set up' checked periodically. It's a labor of love, but that seems to be part of the appeal for some.
 
I really do appreciate all the help thanks ;-) ive also estimated the hours on the stylus and it comes in at around 950 hours
Well, that’s around the 1,000 hours that often quoted, but the different manufacturers and different stylus profiles seem to claim different outcomes.

You mentioned cleaning the records. What do you clean the stylus with? Maybe ask a dealer to check it if they have a suitable microscope. Ideally, you need one who will let you try a Black and Bronze in your cartridge, but I appreciate that’s easier said than done. In the 1970/80s that was more common, as I did that regularly in my Saturday-only job

Are you happy with the best sounding records in your collection? If so, maybe you’re simply more aware they aren’t all equally great.
 

daytona600

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950hours stylus will be shot IF
records perfectly clean with a record cleaning machine
correct tracking / azimuth / bias / zenith
Shibata stylus 600hours lifespan
Dirty records , incorrect set up will be much lower 50% or lower

Like tyre lifespan 600hours can still be used , but cornering , braking will be comprised , then when bald you end up in a hedge , hospital or pushing up daisies

Spherical 150hrs
Elliptical 250hrs
Hyperellliptical 400hrs
Shibata 600hrs
Microridge 800hrs
FG80/100 Line contact 1000hours
 
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speedthing

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950 hours is about 1 LP per day over 4.5 years (possibly a tad more)?
Perhaps the new amp. highlighted the sibilance/stylus wear issue.
Stylus life can vary depending on many factors and many so called 'experts' conservatively recommend 1,000 hours.
Sadly, if the stylus is worn and, if what you are hearing is the result of this wear, you can be sure that your LP's will have suffered damage too

People who are playing old record collections (that were perhaps played on not so great equipment back in the day) may actually be doing damage to their expensive new stylus right off the bat... even if they thoroughly clean the records before spinning them on their new high end decks.

Vinyl is great, but it's a bit like owning a vintage car, constant maintenance (which doesn't come for free).
This is one of the things the hi-fi magazines don't really stress about the cost of using vinyl as a source. Vinyl needs to be cleaned regularly along with the stylus and the tt 'set up' checked periodically. It's a labor of love, but that seems to be part of the appeal for some.
Yes I totally agree with pretty much all of that the worn records damaging the stylus was a thing id not thought of so that stylus is well over due for a change I will change out the cartridge as well.
 

My2Cents

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If I was into vinyl I would definitely invest in one of these:
Amazon currently has them for $399, not a bad deal when you consider what all the other gear costs!
How many folks actually use such a device?
 
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speedthing

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Well, that’s around the 1,000 hours that often quoted, but the different manufacturers and different stylus profiles seem to claim different outcomes.

You mentioned cleaning the records. What do you clean the stylus with? Maybe ask a dealer to check it if they have a suitable microscope. Ideally, you need one who will let you try a Black and Bronze in your cartridge, but I appreciate that’s easier said than done. In the 1970/80s that was more common, as I did that regularly in my Saturday-only job

Are you happy with the best sounding records in your collection? If so, maybe you’re simply more aware they aren’t all equally great.
Right I just have a stylus cleaning brush nothing else I do check the stylus quite regular as best I can. I have looked at a lot of reviews of the other Ortofon cartridges the direct replacement for the Black is the Bronze. I came across a very in depth review on the Bronze cartridge the reviewer said that it was very good for most music but it was not very happy with dance music and trash metal I don't do dance but I do collect thrash. Quite a few people have said that they found that the Black picked up a lot of noise and the Red can be a bit funny to track and could in some cases be sibilant from the start so im thinking that maybe Ortofons are not right for the noisy racket I listen to. On my best sounding records I will have to go and do a bit more testing ive only tested one at the mo YES's 90125 I also have this on CD it sounds spot on it is as good as the CD virtually the same EQ which is pretty good for an LP its clear and punchy.
 
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speedthing

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If I was into vinyl I would definitely invest in one of these:
Amazon currently has them for $399, not a bad deal when you consider what all the other gear costs!
How many folks actually use such a device?
With the volume I buy vinyl at im very seriously thinking of investing in one im 720 records into a 1600 record list I must buy 3 to 4 records a week and the list gets longer every week so I may never get to the end of it.
 
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speedthing

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Thanks, Al, you’re quite right. I thought I’d reread it but obviously missed that. He did say he doesn’t ‘seem’ to, so maybe needs to specifically check on the same troublesome tracks?
The record that started this whole thing off was Led Zeppelin 2 I have a very first Japanese press of that album its quite well know for being a Robert Ludwig hot mix version which did give Atlantic a few problems and it had to be recut. Being a collector I do have a few other versions of that album I have a first UK press of it which ive checked and its a lot better less sibilance than the Jap issue I have a very late 70's reissue of it that has no problem at all. The other one so far is Metallica's master of puppets original UK press this has quite a bit of sibilance the CD of it which has a higher EQ is fine.
 
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Right I just have a stylus cleaning brush nothing else I do check the stylus quite regular as best I can. I have looked at a lot of reviews of the other Ortofon cartridges the direct replacement for the Black is the Bronze. I came across a very in depth review on the Bronze cartridge the reviewer said that it was very good for most music but it was not very happy with dance music and trash metal I don't do dance but a I do collect thrash. Quite a few people have said that they found that the Black picked up a lot of noise and the Red can be a bit funny to track and could in some cases be sibilant from the start so im thinking that maybe Ortofons are not right for the noisy racket I listen to. On my best sounding records I will have to go and do a bit more testing ive only tested one at the mo YES's 90215 I also have this on CD is sounds spot on it is as good as the CD virtually the same EQ which is pretty good for an LP its clear and punchy.
Personally, I’d use a drop of isopropyl alcohol on the brush if you’ve not done so before. Some cartridge manufacturers don’t recommend this because if you’re clumsy you might spray alcohol into the insides. It doesn’t dissolve the adhesive (securing the stylus to the shank) as I’ve been doing this for fifty years, but I’ve not owned an Ortofon for about 30!

Otherwise, get another Black stylus, or try a Bronze stylus, given the balance is similar to CD - as good a guide as any, in my book. Definitely you don’t need the whole cartridge unless you want to try something else. The AT95ml already mentioned will track your heavy metal, but won’t make it sound refined. I wouldn’t be able to judge on music like that, so will leave that to you!
 
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speedthing

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Morning guy's got up this morning and ive made a bit of a discovery err and feeling a bit stupid LOL
so got a magnifying glass and a torch to sort of have a look at the stylus. And turns out this cartridge its not
an 2M black looking at the 2M Black on line the stylus is very glossy black and on the side of the cartridge it has 2M written in gold. My cartridge has 2M written in white the stylus looks to be dull black till you shine a light on it directly but is actually opaque Grey so ive been on the Ortofon site and cant find this cartridge on there but i did find an 2M silver stylus. On the site it says its translucent in colour and interchangeable with the 2M blue and red it also says on the site that is an upgrade from the red so its in between the red and the blue.
 
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speedthing

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Yep sounds like you've definitely got a 2M Silver there. Logical Ortofon upgrade would be a 2M Blue stylus, failing that get an AT.
I note that on the Ortofon site its says that silver has a life of around a thousand hours if looked after so recon mine is defo toast i will have a look at the Blue but if im being honest im leaning toward the AT's
 
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DougK1

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I note that on the Ortofon site its says that silver has a life of around a thousand hours if looked a so recon mine is defo toast i will have a look at the Blue but if im being honest im leaning toward the AT's
AT do have a huge range of carts and interchangeable styli. Personally I've never found the 2M range to be particularly good trackers, they could only just about pass track 2 of the torture tracking test on the HFN test record. I had an AT440ML which could pass all 4 tracks, amazing cart, but was a little thin sounding, hence my change to Nagaoka.
 
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My2Cents

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It looks like Pro-Ject include the Sumiko Rainier on many of their £800 - £1,000 turntables. I doubt that they would include a cartridge that would make the deck sound poor.
They are only £160 so perhaps start there and make sure someone who knows what they are doing installs it and sets the arm up correctly.
When you purchased the deck new there was no guarantee that it was actually set up correctly either, I would have had a tech. check it over.
Test records are pointless and, in fact, some cartridge manufacturers recommend not using them as they can damage the stylus.
 
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DougK1

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When you purchased the deck new there was no guarantee that it was actually set up correctly either, I would have had a tech. check it over.
Test records are pointless and, in fact, some cartridge manufacturers recommend not using them as they can damage the stylus.
Strangely a lot of my enjoyment comes from mounting and dialling in a cartridge myself, it's been a learning curve but a very interesting skill to learn. Plus picked up some decent tools over the years to assist.
In the absence of a tried and tested foolproof method I've found test records to be an invaluable tool for setting correct bias/anti-skate.
 

speedthing

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It looks like Pro-Ject include the Sumiko Rainier on many of their £800 - £1,000 turntables. I doubt that they would include a cartridge that would make the deck sound poor.
Thanks for that tip I will have a look at those cartridges would you rate these above Ortofon cartridges?
 

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