Musical fidelity M6i or Naim Nait xs to drive my B&W 683

[Roby]

Rob, it's good to get your update.

With regard to all this cabling lark, here is what I have found (sorry if I'm repeating myself).

- Never assume that it will make a difference....just try it and see on different components and see what happens.

- Using an expensive cable does not always justify its cost.

- The improvement you may get is situation and component dependent.

- Be careful that it is not a change in sound, rather than an improvement in sound.

- I found the 35i responded well to a good mains cables, so it will be worth comparing the Siltech and Shunyata on it.

- Sometimes the improvement is more apparent with the removal of the expensive cables

- It is possible to get an incremental improvement with a more cohesive sound when the cables are from the same company

- The best I/C should be on the Source

- Spend a lot of time finding the "sweetspot" of cost versus performance.....I think it will be worth seeing where the Clearer Audio M/Cs fit in, especially where components don't improve as you would expect with an expensive one.

- Be careful with conditioners / re-generators.....these should make quite a difference, but make sure that you like what they do. I found an Isol8 regenerator made the sound too clean and analytical. There is also the problem of the 35i drawing large amounts of current, which is often more than these devises can cope with (unless expensive and powerful).

- Do nothing until you get to hear Vertere.

I fully agree with your dealer when he says to take your time. The more you experiment, the clearer your path will become...you need to maximize the performance, by matching the right level of cabling to the right component in order not to waste money on an expensive cable to little effect.

I found the opposide of Alex, where I got more improvement from putting the more expensive cable on the power hungry stuff.....but my dealer does the opposite.

Tread carefully and post your findings

Cno

Thanks for your opinion on this like I said I'm really strugling on this one.....

So I didn't test the P/C on my phonostage but putting it on the AMS I head a oretty good result. My logic talls me this qhould be the case to as the AMS is the Item demanding the most power.

But this can be a totaly wrong assesment....anyway to be shure I will test the P/C on the phonostage tomorow.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks for your opinion on this like I said I'm really strugling on this one.....

So I didn't test the P/C on my phonostage but putting it on the AMS I head a oretty good result. My logic talls me this qhould be the case to as the AMS is the Item demanding the most power.

But this can be a totaly wrong assesment....anyway to be shure I will test the P/C on the phonostage tomorow.

The main thing is not to worry about it and let the puzzle slowly unravel.

Which cables has Alex left with you at the moment.?

You could note down your observations, and when Alex returns, see if he backs them up, without knowing what you think.

 

[Roby]

at this point I have the Kemp plus (witch is just under ther reference) connected to the ams witch was a pleasant surprise.

an the siltech 330i connected to the phonostage.

I just tried to connect the 220L an I think I have bas luck cuase one of the cables is not working again.....pfff put the
AH! DLS Direkt KB10
on again witch is pretty good but heard what the siltech could do in Alex's system (I mean first time I listened to his system he had the same problem as me an switching to Siltech almost made it desapear completjy....

so I'm wondering :?

But anyway I send a mail to Francis telling the cable is still faulty an that I would call him monday hopfoly he can give me something alse to play with ;-)

I think that I strugle with the cable choice also because it's new, I mean before buying the AMS I already had a pretty good set-up an demoed a lot of amps so I knew whet to expect an what I wanted same for my TT.

Cables I actualy have almost no expirience with an it new.

Does that make sence???

 

[Roby]

Hey Cno

In an other treat you said you actualy had bad result's with conditiners an that you prefer regenerators.

Can you give a example of the product's I might try?

 

[CnoEvil]

Hey Cno

In an other treat you said you actualy had bad result's with conditiners an that you prefer regenerators.

Can you give a example of the product's I might try?

There is a reasonable chance that you will not find the same as me. I didn't say it to put you off, rather to advise caution, as it's easy to get into your head that these things always make things better.

The best I have heard is this unassuming (but not cheap) box, which is a balanced mains transformer from Atlas (3 models) http://www.atlascables.com/ :http://www.atlascables.com/1.0-kva-balanced-transformer-line-conditioner.html

For conditioning, Isotek is one of the best: http://www.isoteksystems.com/cgi-bin/downloads.pl?com=getFile&id=20

As I said, the 35i draws so much current, it is probably best plugged directly into the wall with a decent M/C like the Shunyata (ideally on its own dedicated circuit).

I can't stress strongly enough that this really is a "Black Art" of trial and error, and the money you can haemorrhage has to be assessed in terms of its value....ie. could it be placed better elsewhere.

IMO. When you have a well chosen, expensive system, you can get gains from very carefully selected ancillaries, at a cost that is worth it.

 

[CnoEvil]

Cables I actualy have almost no expirience with an it new.

Does that make sence???

When you started out on your journey, you had very little experience of anything, and now you have heard more stuff than most.

The really hard part is chosing your system in the first place......the cables are really nothing to worry about.

You now have all the experience you need....ie. You can hear subtle differences in components and know what you like. You just apply it to cables ie. try them out, and take note of the differences (if there are any).

If you do hear a difference, put a personal value on what it is worth to you....it really is as simple as that. Remember your equipment sounds exceptional with its given (and your existing) cables, so there is nothing to loose .....and only sound quality to gain (though it's at a cost).

 

[DocG]

The best I have heard is this unassuming (but not cheap) box, which is a balanced mains transformer from Atlas (3 models) http://www.atlascables.com/ :http://www.atlascables.com/1.0-kva-balanced-transformer-line-conditioner.html

Hi guys, can I pop in?

Airlink Transformers have balanced power supplies at a very reasonable price ( http://www.airlinktransformers.com/cat10/balanced_power_supply.htm). Internet sale, and no return/refund policy though... Does anyone have any experience with these? Where should one put them into the chain? At the patch cabinet? Or between the wall and the equipment?

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi guys, can I pop in?

Airlink Transformers have balanced power supplies at a very reasonable price ( http://www.airlinktransformers.com/cat10/balanced_power_supply.htm). Internet sale, and no return/refund policy though... Does anyone have any experience with these? Where should one put them into the chain? At the patch cabinet? Or between the wall and the equipment?

I would rather not be the only source of info.

I can only talk about the Atlas, which plugs into the wall.....The big advantage of the Atlas, is that it is so quiet. It's a very well made, solid bit of kit that is expensive, due to the increase in the price of Copper. If I had the money, it's probably the only thing I would let near my system....though this is very personal.

 

[Roby]

hey

what do you think of this?

http://www.technologyfactory.eu/index.php?item=kemp-power-strip-8&action=article&group_id=10000157&aid=2485&lang=EN

Thats something I can easely have acces to for home demo....any exoerience of tought's?

 

[CnoEvil]

hey

what do you think of this?

http://www.technologyfactory.eu/index.php?item=kemp-power-strip-8&action=article&group_id=10000157&aid=2485&lang=EN

Thats something I can easely have acces to for home demo....any exoerience of tought's?

Not a clue I'm afraid...but give it a try.

I think I would rather have decent mains leads and possibly some Furutech wall sockets like this: http://www.furutech.com/a2008/product2.asp?prodNo=345

 

[Roby]

I like that an will maybe do it. But certenly not before the end of June when my work is done in the livingroom(so it give me time to think about it)

An like you advice it's provably worth put those on a seperate cercuite if I'm working that not a big effort anyway to do that.

But this mean a littlle budget to put decent wireing otherwis it would be all for nothing......

 

[CnoEvil]

An like you advice it's provably worth put those on a seperate cercuite if I'm working that not a big effort anyway to do that.

But this mean a littlle budget to put decent wireing otherwis it would be all for nothing......

Here is what True Blue did: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/wish-id-done-it-years-ago?page=1

IMO. If you can do this, with decent sockets, it should be one of the best VFM improvements you can make (along with room acoustics and isolation).

 

[Roby]

Finaly conected the 220L afther reataching the plugs.

First thing that I heard was the gain in sprankel & clarity. Doesn't actualy take a way the bzz I was complaining about but it's certenly less an it might be stupid but impression is that it made it more tunfull but this can be my imagination...

It actualy give a tighter bass but tha gain in punch an clarity can make the voice somethime a bit bright.

But overal it's an improvement for now worth the money for me.

So I lived for 2weeks with the AH I will do the same with the Siltech's an than change a gain for a week to see what I really prefer.

Keep those an test them with something alse like

330/550, Shunyata & provably Vertere By than we will be 2 or 3 month's later I guess...

But I actually love that little punch the Siltech's at to my system. (Even if the a are exceptional an at an unbeatable price they might be a little to well behaved for my taste)

Just an example the voice of Mark knofler on 'ticket to heaven' is really comming out now even commining more to live but still deep.

Cno

Cant find the picture of how you isolated your speakers but if I remamber well you put a first layer of wood an than the stone. but dit you put the wood on spikes?

 

[Anonymous]

It's really a long story.:wave:

I'v used the M6i for a few weeks. It's a great amp i'v ever hear.

 

[Roby]

It's really a long story.:wave:

I'v used the M6i for a few weeks. It's a great amp i'v ever hear.

Congrats ;-)

True it's my favored amp in the price range an far behound. I think it's truely exceptional.

Enjoy the music an happy X-mas

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno

Cant find the picture of how you isolated your speakers but if I remamber well you put a first layer of wood an than the stone. but dit you put the wood on spikes?

Here are the photos (post 4): http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/bens-hifi?page=2

I have the Auralex Grammas sitting on 2 granite worktop savers (laid side-by-side), and trimmed round with wood (for both stability and asthetics). If using spikes, you would need to use spike shoes with this arrangement.

Remember, the speaker cable that suits Alex best may not necessarily be right for you. Alex's system is a little warm and dark, so cabling that is very clean and revealing is likely the right way to go.

Your system is quite different in the sense that it's harder hitting, cleaner and punchier.....this is why I like Cardas, which imo works well. At the money the Siltech costs, you have to be thrilled with the result and without slight reservations.

 

[Roby]

Thanks

I was checking out the website the small ones should me fine as the Ascendent are 10 wide/13 deep an it's not that expensive

It's certenly worth a try

Thanks an Happy X-mass

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks

I was checking out the website the small ones should me fine as the Ascendent are 10 wide/13 deep an it's not that expensive

It's certenly worth a try

Thanks an Happy X-mass

There are 3 sizes - Grammas, Great Grammas and Subdudes.

The Grammas are a good size, if putting 2 x granite worktop savers (30cm x 40cm) under them.

The Subdudes, though smaller, are much more expensive than the Grammas.

Happy Christmas my friend

Cno

 

[toyota man]

It's really a long story.:wave:

I'v used the M6i for a few weeks. It's a great amp i'v ever hear.

Ive had mine for a year now and I still love it and every day it gets better and better :rockout: :dance: :dance:

 

[acalex]

First of all merry Christmas to all of you beautiful people. Missing so much my set but enjoying a lot the southern Italian food, atmosphere and weather .

Back to the topic, Rob I think you are getting stressed too much about this all cable issue and the need of improvement. As Cno correctly said our system a quite different (always at the two sides of the spectrum) so it is not said that whatever works for me is goi g to do the same trick for you. Plus, if you remember well I wasn't that happy when my system was completed as it wasn't sounding yet as I liked so much. Your system sounded already so much good that I think you could take she time now and rest.

If you like so much the Ah cables I think you should stick with those (great value for money indeed) and invest now probably in a good power cable for the ams. Leave the rest for later and keep saving. In this way or will learn little by little what is still missing and you will have time to put money aside for upgrading with more ease. Also the all power conditioning thing...hold on and stop think about the for now. In my opinion does not make any sense to spend any big money on this topic as far as your home works are not completed as this can drastically change the way it sounds once you moved things around the house. So my advise is, get a good power cable and keep the Ah s/c if you like them. Try to get, on the other hand, your electrician to create a singol path for your amplifier as this is might well be worth the cost...and keep enjoying your amazing system.

see you in a few days.

alex

 

[Macspur]

Hi Alex,

Seasons greetings to you too.

What is typical southern Italian fare at this time of year?

Mac

 

[Neuphonix]

Hey Rob,

I tend to agree with Alex, just sit back for a while & don't rush any of the tweaks. A few points if I could offer:

The room is defintely the next biggest influencing factor on your sound. I know that you have plans for alterations, but money spent here is probably going to give you the biggest return. Imagine if it was some sort of resonance effect with your flooring which had been giving you your horn effect & you had spent lots on cables to try & get rid of it?

Room measurement: I'm sure you read about my recent room testing, was really interesting. I'm putting together a simple kit to do it myself, you will need:

a) Analysing software: http://www.trueaudio.com/ this is the version that I plan to use, it both measures/graphs & generates various waves/signals. You can download the basic version for free, but if you want to measure in greater detail you will need the full version. There are quite a few online resources showing how to use it correctly.

b) Micophone: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx the software guys recommend this one (I'm sure thgat there are other options out there) which is quite cheap, you will also need an XLR microphone lead long enough to move to all corners of your room & a stand to set it up on.

c) Microphone amp with USB interface: http://global.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/scarlett-2i2 M-Audio make one as well.

You should be able to set all this up for $400 or so. If you're reaosnably technical & like playing around it seems like money well spent to me.

Power:

a) When you do run in a dedicated circuit to the system, probably a good idea to run two. Just as easy, only a little more in material costs, will give you greater flexibility in the future.

b) In the meantime it may be possible to set up a psuedo dedicated circuit depending on your existing cabling. Indentify which circuit your system is currently plugged into & what other outlets this circuit is supplying in the house. If practical unplug all devices from the other outlets & only leave your system plugged in, this in effect will give you a dedicated circuit.

c) I'm sure that there are people on here with much greater expertise than me but I'm pretty sure that the biggest offender with power and sound degredation is ground loops. Make sure that you don't have any items such as lights (floor standing lamps) with transformers plugged into the same circuit as your system.

d) Power conditioners: haven't looked into this too much yet. But it would seem that there are two aspects, proctection & "quality" of the power. The protection aspect is important especially gievn how much we have all invested into our systems. But the power quality one is another, it appears that you need to buy a signal "regenerating" filter to truly change the "quality" of the power and this costs a lot. This one does it: http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p10-power-plant/ but given that it costs almost as much as your amp you'd have to question the value. Does the guy that demod their DAC for you have one you could try out? I'm buying one of these Aussie made units: http://thortechnologies.com.au/products/product/ps10-smart-power-station which protects & filters but I don't think that it "regenerates". We have fairly dirty power over here, so I like the idea of making sure that my gear is getting a consistant 240v. As i said haven't looked into this area too much yet, hopefully someone with some expertise might chime in & clear up any mistakes I might have made.

Room treatments: Once you have your room built & power sorted you can carry out your measurements & get an idea of its resonant properties, then go for some treatments. the dealer that I bought my MF gear from sell these: http://www.vicoustic.com/VN/Homecinema/default.asp They offer a service where you can send them your room size/properties & system & they'll analyse for you and recommend treatments. Their wall traps can be printed up to your design so look stylish & meet WAf requirements.

This is all going to cost a bit, but IMHO will give you a much geater return on your money than any small tweaks you can make in the meantime. Once you've got this part of it nailed then start playing around with cables etc.

Sorry to be so long winded, hope I haven't come across as too preachy or anything. I just found that when I went through the room measuring process it bought home to me how important this aspect is, like your room is another component in the system.

As an experiment can you try listening to one channel with-out the other. I was amazed at how different my left side sounded to my right.

Talk soon

 

[Roby]

Thanks,

All point of view an advice is always welcome, an always taken in consideration.

Like I said this last part is a srugle for me an importand disissions should be made afther the extention at home. in the mean time I can easely test different options like power condiyioners or I/C & P/C...

The I want to do for an actualy it's more because I have not really the choice

Are the S/C Like Alex say My sound was realy good already with the AH cables but 2 reason's I'm kind of pushed to the Sitech option

1 is I like the sprankle it ad to my system

2 Like alex said in an other tread it's a cable or dealer is always willing to take back for an upgrade (So I don't see the point loosing 2 or 300€ in lat's say 6 month's that's just stupid IMO in the assumtion the dealer is taking them in for an upgrade)

3 I have no S/C at the momment as I have the 3.5 Jensen cables but I need theme to connect the 683 in my HT set up.

Also I think isolating my speakers will not hurt an it's not expensive....

All the other items is best to wait everything is tight in place at home, This doesn't mean I cant try them out an give you my opinion about theme ;-)

 

[acalex]

Rob, check with Francis tomorrow if he has received the vertere cables. Any news on the wall board?

 

[Roby]

I will give hime a call

You want me to pick theme up?

No news for my stuff I really hope this is for this weekend