Marantz PM 6005: Wot no network streaming? :-(

[Johnno2]

I would not be surpised to see somewhere like richersounds discounting this amp in the not to distant future to bring it in at the same price as the 6004 , others like superfi will then have to follow, who says hifi is not cut throat ! that would make it superb unbeatable value, with or without the dac,

 

[Johnno2]

I think the PM6005 will do fine without all these features like airplay and bluetooth. Not everyone needs those things.

It probably will do well. But just because not everyone needs those features doesn't mean they shouldn't be on it. There's obviously just no incentive to include them because there's not enough cut-throat competition. If the mobile phone industry had moved as fast as the HiFi separates industry we might just about by now be able to buy phones that send texts.

so, when will rotel give you these features at this price, you will be lucky to even get a remote from them !!

 

[the record spot]

The product that I think many enthusiasts are waiting for is an amplifier with all that functionality built in along with a better overall sonic performance. One or two manufacturers have tried this, Yamaha, Onkyo for example but it would probably take a similar product from a market leader like Marantz to really make it clear that this is the way forward.

Couldn't be bothered waiting for Marantz to catch up Dave, Onkyo's been delivering on this score for a few years now. Sound quality from the 818 is a notch or ten above what most people seem to think AV amps are like. Great receiver, ace performance.

 

[MajorFubar]

I think I'll probably be heading towards the MC-R610 if anything, but what I really wanted to see was an integrated amp in the £300-£400 price-bracket which sounds like a '6005 and offers the same network-streaming features as a '610 without CD and radio. It will happen, but by the looks of things, not in the Marantz camp until another two or three refreshes, because there doesn't appear to be the will/incentive to deliver it sooner. (The capability to deliver it is clearly already there.)

 

[Cypher]

Like the record spot said........there are other options. The PM6005 is what it is.......maybe the PM6006 has more features but I don't know if you can wait that long

 

[davedotco]

I feel some people are kind of missing the point here.

The 6005 is made to a price and to deliver the facilities that Marantz feel that most people want. The clue is most people.

The 6005 is not an enthusiasts product, it does not deliver anything special and, quite frankly, neither does any roughly comparable products from other manufacturers. It is 'commodity hi-fi' that finds it's real worth overhyped in a marketplace that is very heavily price orientated.

The british market is reknowned for being, well, a bit cheapskate, the whole marketing strategy of brands in this sector of the market is price orientated because mainstream buyers will not pay more, even for a clearly superior product. People talk about discounts as if they are real when products such as the 6005 was always expected to sell mostly at a 'low' price so the higher 'retail price' at launch is just a marketing strategy.

In the modern marketplace the 6005 sells for £300, everybody makes money at this price, so this is the real worth of the product. This is a 'business model' that is followed by many of the mass market hi-fi companies.

Most buyers at this end of the market have no idea of what good sound is, but everyone knows that 30% (or whatever) off is a big discount, even when, in reality, it is no such thing.

 

[matt49]

I feel some people are kind of missing the point here.

The 6005 is made to a price and to deliver the facilities that Marantz feel that most people want. The clue is most people.

The 6005 is not an enthusiasts product, it does not deliver anything special and, quite frankly, neither does any roughly comparable products from other manufacturers. It is 'commodity hi-fi' that finds it's real worth overhyped in a marketplace that is very heavily price orientated.

The british market is reknowned for being, well, a bit cheapskate, the whole marketing strategy of brands in this sector of the market is price orientated because mainstream buyers will not pay more, even for a clearly superior product. People talk about discounts as if they are real when products such as the 6005 was always expected to sell mostly at a 'low' price so the higher 'retail price' at launch is just a marketing strategy.

In the modern marketplace the 6005 sells for £300, everybody makes money at this price, so this is the real worth of the product. This is a 'business model' that is followed by many of the mass market hi-fi companies.

Most buyers at this end of the market have no idea of what good sound is, but everyone knows that 30% (or whatever) off is a big discount, even when, in reality, it is no such thing.

Dave,

Great to have you back from your whale-watching trip. Fascinating though your views on Marantz amps are, I would really like to hear what you have to say about whales. Could you possibly write us a short piece on whales, maybe something like this:

Most punters really have no idea about whales, and I’m not surprised that people who post on this forum aren’t happy with their whales, but this is just the way the whale business has gone since I retired.

We used to get lots of people coming in to the shop wanting to see whales. In my experience there are two kinds of whales. There are the mid-range whales, like the humpback, which can be seen pretty easily by anyone. Most punters just turn up asking for a humpback, because humpbacks get five stars in Lonely Planet and the Rough Guide. But it’s no surprise when people come back and say the humpback isn’t giving them the whale experience they wanted.

Frankly (and I know I’m not allowed to say so on this forum), they’d be better off with what the pros use, i.e. a small active porpoise, which is pretty cheap, but much faster and behaves much more like a live whale. An active porpoise makes most mid-range whales seem slow and bloated.

When I was searching for cetacean perfection, I tried all sorts of high-end whales, and I still have a pair of sperm whales in storage in Wales.

The best whales I ever saw were some blue whales that one of my customers had in a huge whale-watching room. But blue whales aren’t practical for most houses. Frankly the small active porpoises are much better for you plebs in your small houses.

Mrs DDC used to be a bit of a whale chick.

Call me weird, but I can’t stand seeing the same whale twice.

I’ve got these weird green parrots outside my window. Or maybe they’re whales.

etc etc etc

As I said, great to have you back.



Matt

 

[Cypher]

Many will know by now that davedotco doesn't like budget amplifiers................

 

[davedotco]

I feel some people are kind of missing the point here.

The 6005 is made to a price and to deliver the facilities that Marantz feel that most people want. The clue is most people.

The 6005 is not an enthusiasts product, it does not deliver anything special and, quite frankly, neither does any roughly comparable products from other manufacturers. It is 'commodity hi-fi' that finds it's real worth overhyped in a marketplace that is very heavily price orientated.

The british market is reknowned for being, well, a bit cheapskate, the whole marketing strategy of brands in this sector of the market is price orientated because mainstream buyers will not pay more, even for a clearly superior product. People talk about discounts as if they are real when products such as the 6005 was always expected to sell mostly at a 'low' price so the higher 'retail price' at launch is just a marketing strategy.

In the modern marketplace the 6005 sells for £300, everybody makes money at this price, so this is the real worth of the product. This is a 'business model' that is followed by many of the mass market hi-fi companies.

Most buyers at this end of the market have no idea of what good sound is, but everyone knows that 30% (or whatever) off is a big discount, even when, in reality, it is no such thing.

Dave,

Great to have you back from your whale-watching trip. Fascinating though your views on Marantz amps are, I would really like to hear what you have to say about whales. Could you possibly write us a short piece on whales, maybe something like this:

Most punters really have no idea about whales, and I’m not surprised that people who post on this forum aren’t happy with their whales, but this is just the way the whale business has gone since I retired.

We used to get lots of people coming in to the shop wanting to see whales. In my experience there are two kinds of whales. There are the mid-range whales, like the humpback, which can be seen pretty easily by anyone. Most punters just turn up asking for a humpback, because humpbacks get five stars in Lonely Planet and the Rough Guide. But it’s no surprise when people come back and say the humpback isn’t giving them the whale experience they wanted.

Frankly (and I know I’m not allowed to say so on this forum), they’d be better off with what the pros use, i.e. a small active porpoise, which is pretty cheap, but much faster and behaves much more like a live whale. An active porpoise makes most mid-range whales seem slow and bloated.

When I was searching for cetacean perfection, I tried all sorts of high-end whales, and I still have a pair of sperm whales in storage in Wales.

The best whales I ever saw were some blue whales that one of my customers had in a huge whale-watching room. But blue whales aren’t practical for most houses. Frankly the small active porpoises are much better for you plebs in your small houses.

Mrs DDC used to be a bit of a whale chick.

Call me weird, but I can’t stand seeing the same whale twice.

I’ve got these weird green parrots outside my window. Or maybe they’re whales.

etc etc etc

As I said, great to have you back.



Matt

If I didn't know you better I would say you were taking the pish.......

Mind you, you should be careful what you wish for, I am already writing up the whale (mostly humpbacks) watching trips for another forum and a critique of our hotel for trip advisor.

If you are not careful you may well get an extended description of our side trip to the Hotel Calfornia in Todos Santos, or perhaps a review of the sound system in Cabo Wabo, Sammy Hagar's hard rock venue in the heart of Cabo.

I could give you a review of their house band, who were truly awful, reduced to doing covers of Bon Jovi for drunk Americans or much better, the girl led band that played at the Jungle Bar, Cabo's 'biker' bar. The row of Harleys outside was pretty impressive.

 

[matthewpiano]

Interesting discussion. The Marantz amps are OK for what they are but un-exceptional in my experience, particularly having found what a company like Exposure can do for £145 more than the true price of the PM6005 (Dave is absolutely right about the pricing/business model). They sound best with un-demanding loads at sensible volumes but can easily sound flat. With more demanding speakers they fall apart. I have never thought them capable of driving/controlling B+Ws or Dynaudios for example. They just don't have the grip.

 

[adamskihamski]

Interesting... regarding speakers, at what price point would you stop and say 'the amp is out of it's depth'. Or is it more a case of speaker sensitivity? If you pair the amp with well regarded £500 speakers (e.g. Tannoy DC6T, QA 2050i or the new B&W 685 S2), are these speakers likely to get the most out of the amp, or reveal it's limitations?

For what it's worth, I bought a PM6005 because I split my listening between CD and Spotify Premium. I stream Spotify over wi-fi to an Airport Express (with an optical output) - which slots neatly into the new input on the 6005. I had previously used my AV receiver for audio duties (which blew up) and thought this (and the accompanying CD6005) would be a suitable entry point back into the world of hi-fi.

 

[davedotco]

Interesting... regarding speakers, at what price point would you stop and say 'the amp is out of it's depth'. Or is it more a case of speaker sensitivity? If you pair the amp with well regarded £500 speakers (e.g. Tannoy DC6T, QA 2050i or the new B&W 685 S2), are these speakers likely to get the most out of the amp, or reveal it's limitations?

For what it's worth, I bought a PM6005 because I split my listening between CD and Spotify Premium. I stream Spotify over wi-fi to an Airport Express (with an optical output) - which slots neatly into the new input on the 6005. I had previously used my AV receiver for audio duties (which blew up) and thought this (and the accompanying CD6005) would be a suitable entry point back into the world of hi-fi.

I don't think it is a price issue particularly, though clearly the quality of the drive units and the cabinets does play a part. Decent sensitivity helps too but mostly it is down to the load that the speaker presents to the amplifier. This is difficult to quantify, some amplifiers handle the impedence peak that comes at main driver resonance with ease, others struggle to provide enough drive or fail to exert sufficient control. Similarly some amplifiers will be upset by the peculiarities of a speaker around the crossover point and sound 'bright' others will not.

This is the primary reason you need to listen before you buy, in many respects it doesn't matter with of the 'usual suspects' you actually do buy, but what really makes the difference is how the amplifier deals with the speakers. Generally floor standing speakers are difficult to control, the combination of inexpensive drive units and lightweight cabinets is a boom box just waiting to happen, particularly if the positioning is less than optimum.

It is also fair to say that stand mounts tend to be less sensitive, so they can be difficult too, all in all it just means you have to listen to see which combinations work best. I have not done this so it is speculative, but if I wanted to build a system around a 6005 I would probably start with a pair of my favourite Dali Zensor 1s and add a BK sub, if I thought it needed it in my room

 

[Cypher]

Interesting... regarding speakers, at what price point would you stop and say 'the amp is out of it's depth'. Or is it more a case of speaker sensitivity? If you pair the amp with well regarded £500 speakers (e.g. Tannoy DC6T, QA 2050i or the new B&W 685 S2), are these speakers likely to get the most out of the amp, or reveal it's limitations?

For what it's worth, I bought a PM6005 because I split my listening between CD and Spotify Premium. I stream Spotify over wi-fi to an Airport Express (with an optical output) - which slots neatly into the new input on the 6005. I had previously used my AV receiver for audio duties (which blew up) and thought this (and the accompanying CD6005) would be a suitable entry point back into the world of hi-fi.

I would try the Dali Zensor 3 speakers. Great synergy with Marantz

 

[Blackdawn]

People who are complaining that there is no internet streaming and other bits basically want a stereo receiver or AV receiver not an integrated amp.

Who here mentioned internet streaming? I don't want a receiver, AV or otherwise. I want an amp such as the PM6005 to be able to stream music from my NAS, which is not an unreasonable expection seeing that it clearly could have done, I'd wager for the same ballpark figure. Same as Dave's suggestion for USB support, which is definitely another nice-to-have they could easily have delivered within budget. I think what we've established really is that the only reason it doesn'thave these features is because in the HiFi separates arena there aren't the cut-throat do-or-die marketing-forces driving technology forward.

Yes you're correct, I meant network not internet. Again, what you're talking about can already be had elsewhere. The Yamaha RN500 is a stereo network receiver but it costs £450 so its unreasonable to suggest the Marantz PM6005 should incorporate all this technology inside their basic integrated amps. Also look at the likes of the Onkyo TX8050 as another example. In essence a stereo network receiver is like a two channel integrated amp with network/DACs capability. Like others suggest , the network/DAC technology can be had by going down the AV receiver route.

 

[Davlink]

Hello everyone,

I've just bougt my first hifi setup last week with a Marantz PM6005 + Pioneer N-50 and the new pair of B&W 685 s2.

Your discussion is very interesting here but I'm wondering, isn't it a wish for Marantz to let you chosse wether you take an "all-in-one" device (such as the Melody Media) or you choose to separate each device within its specific field? So the amp do the job as an amp, the cd player too etc etc.

 

[dalwen]

People who are complaining that there is no internet streaming and other bits basically want a stereo receiver or AV receiver not an integrated amp.

Who here mentioned internet streaming? I don't want a receiver, AV or otherwise. I want an amp such as the PM6005 to be able to stream music from my NAS, which is not an unreasonable expection seeing that it clearly could have done, I'd wager for the same ballpark figure. Same as Dave's suggestion for USB support, which is definitely another nice-to-have they could easily have delivered within budget. I think what we've established really is that the only reason it doesn'thave these features is because in the HiFi separates arena there aren't the cut-throat do-or-die marketing-forces driving technology forward.

Yes you're correct, I meant network not internet. Again, what you're talking about can already be had elsewhere. The Yamaha RN500 is a stereo network receiver but it costs £450 so its unreasonable to suggest the Marantz PM6005 should incorporate all this technology inside their basic integrated amps. Also look at the likes of the Onkyo TX8050 as another example. In essence a stereo network receiver is like a two channel integrated amp with network/DACs capability. Like others suggest , the network/DAC technology can be had by going down the AV receiver route.

PS don't forget the new HK 3770 Stereo Network receiver

 

[matt49]

If I didn't know you better I would say you were taking the pish.......

Mind you, you should be careful what you wish for, I am already writing up the whale (mostly humpbacks) watching trips for another forum and a critique of our hotel for trip advisor.

If you are not careful you may well get an extended description of our side trip to the Hotel Calfornia in Todos Santos, or perhaps a review of the sound system in Cabo Wabo, Sammy Hagar's hard rock venue in the heart of Cabo.

I could give you a review of their house band, who were truly awful, reduced to doing covers of Bon Jovi for drunk Americans or much better, the girl led band that played at the Jungle Bar, Cabo's 'biker' bar. The row of Harleys outside was pretty impressive.

Yeah, sorry, got a bit carried away. But sounds like you and Mrs DDC had a great adventure, what with whales, gigs and beach parties.

Would like to hear about the whales, seriously. Which forum can I find your whale stories on? Pink Fish Media? (gets coat)

Matt

 

[davedotco]

If I didn't know you better I would say you were taking the pish.......

Mind you, you should be careful what you wish for, I am already writing up the whale (mostly humpbacks) watching trips for another forum and a critique of our hotel for trip advisor.

If you are not careful you may well get an extended description of our side trip to the Hotel Calfornia in Todos Santos, or perhaps a review of the sound system in Cabo Wabo, Sammy Hagar's hard rock venue in the heart of Cabo.

I could give you a review of their house band, who were truly awful, reduced to doing covers of Bon Jovi for drunk Americans or much better, the girl led band that played at the Jungle Bar, Cabo's 'biker' bar. The row of Harleys outside was pretty impressive.

Yeah, sorry, got a bit carried away. But sounds like you and Mrs DDC had a great adventure, what with whales, gigs and beach parties.

Would like to hear about the whales, seriously. Which forum can I find your whale stories on? Pink Fish Media? (gets coat)

Matt

I'm never quite sure whether you are serious or not. If you are interested, Google whale watching in Cabo san Lucas, Sea of Cortez and Magdalena Bay. The whales come down the pacific coast from the feeding grounds off the coast of Alaska to spend 2-3 months in the warm waters around the southern tip of the Baja Peninsular, to mate and to have their young. (12 months gestation, very well sorted)

There are thousands of whales in the area and we saw our first from the window of our hotel before breakfast on our first day. We did three trips, two on our own in a small boat with just a 'driver' and we were able to get very close, within 20-30ft on occasions. And whales are big, especially up close.

A lot of what we write ends up on the 'Cabo Forum' on Trip Advisor, some of the whale watching may well end up on Lonely Planet. An appreciation of the Airbus 380 will end up on an aircraft 'porn' site and Mrs DDC wants me to write some other stuff, including some gig reviews and something about our hotel.

Sorry Hi-fi fans, a slight diversion.

And at some point I will relate the story of our side trip to Todos Santos, to visit that Hotel.

 

[manicm]

but what I really wanted to see was an integrated amp in the £300-£400 price-bracket which sounds like a '6005 and offers the same network-streaming features as a '610 without CD and radio.

It already exists - it's called the Marantz M-CR510. Sorry MajorFubar, now what would you like with that, a built-in ice-dispenser too?

 

[davedotco]

but what I really wanted to see was an integrated amp in the £300-£400 price-bracket which sounds like a '6005 and offers the same network-streaming features as a '610 without CD and radio.

It already exists - it's called the Marantz M-CR510. Sorry MajorFubar, now what would you like with that, the marble-top with the kitchen sink too?

Gotcha.........

Though I think that what the Major was after was a rather more potent version of exactly that. Better connectivity options and a more potent audio perfirmance, perhaps with upgrade options.

Something to sit between the 510 and perhaps a Unitiqute.

 

[ID.]

Most punters really have no idea about whales, and I’m not surprised that people who post on this forum aren’t happy with their whales, but this is just the way the whale business has gone since I retired.

We used to get lots of people coming in to the shop wanting to see whales. In my experience there are two kinds of whales. There are the mid-range whales, like the humpback, which can be seen pretty easily by anyone. Most punters just turn up asking for a humpback, because humpbacks get five stars in Lonely Planet and the Rough Guide. But it’s no surprise when people come back and say the humpback isn’t giving them the whale experience they wanted.

Frankly (and I know I’m not allowed to say so on this forum), they’d be better off with what the pros use, i.e. a small active porpoise, which is pretty cheap, but much faster and behaves much more like a live whale. An active porpoise makes most mid-range whales seem slow and bloated.

When I was searching for cetacean perfection, I tried all sorts of high-end whales, and I still have a pair of sperm whales in storage in Wales.

The best whales I ever saw were some blue whales that one of my customers had in a huge whale-watching room. But blue whales aren’t practical for most houses. Frankly the small active porpoises are much better for you plebs in your small houses.

Mrs DDC used to be a bit of a whale chick.

Call me weird, but I can’t stand seeing the same whale twice.

I’ve got these weird green parrots outside my window. Or maybe they’re whales.

etc etc etc

As I said, great to have you back.



Matt

:rofl:

Love DDC's contributions and respect his experience, but this is the funniest thing I've read on here for a while.

Good to have you back davedotco.

 

[Tarxman]

I think I'll probably be heading towards the MC-R610 if anything, but what I really wanted to see was an integrated amp in the £300-£400 price-bracket which sounds like a '6005 and offers the same network-streaming features as a '610 without CD and radio. It will happen, but by the looks of things, not in the Marantz camp until another two or three refreshes, because there doesn't appear to be the will/incentive to deliver it sooner. (The capability to deliver it is clearly already there.)

Why don't you check out the RN500 from Yamaha? Networking, DAC, front USB. Ticks most of the boxes yeah?

 

[MajorFubar]

but what I really wanted to see was an integrated amp in the £300-£400 price-bracket which sounds like a '6005 and offers the same network-streaming features as a '610 without CD and radio.

It already exists - it's called the Marantz M-CR510. Sorry MajorFubar, now what would you like with that, a built-in ice-dispenser too?

As pointed out by DDC, I'm envisaging something a bit further-up the HiFi ladder than the 510. I already knew about the 510.

Tarxman: yep when the time comes I'll look around at other options.

 

[davedotco]

but what I really wanted to see was an integrated amp in the £300-£400 price-bracket which sounds like a '6005 and offers the same network-streaming features as a '610 without CD and radio.

It already exists - it's called the Marantz M-CR510. Sorry MajorFubar, now what would you like with that, a built-in ice-dispenser too?

As pointed out by DDC, I'm envisaging something a bit further-up the HiFi ladder than the 510. I already knew about the 510.

Tarxman: yep when the time comes I'll look around at other options.

There are now so many ways to deliver quality music at home and so many variations and different features that it is actually quite difficult to get what you want, particularly if your requirements are quite specific.

For example, the MCR 510/610 setup has pretty much all the functionality I would expect to need but can not be upgraded sonically, a digital or pre-amp out would sort that. A Uniqute does have that, but at the time of writing does not have onboard support for Spotify or less importantly for me Airplay.

Some of the cheaper streamers from the likes Pioneer and Denon do not have the range of functionality and some computer/network based systems are too complex for the more casual user. The Sonos Connect has a great interface but requires a tablet to control it which, in the case of even the cheapest iPad, doubles the cost which makes it rather expensive.

All in all, quite difficult. To keep things simple I do everything on a laptop and use Airplay, but I would prefer a wired solution with onboard Spotify. A connect would be perfect if the SQ was up to long term use, but is it?. I would be tempted by the Cullen/W4S mods, which doubles the cost yet again, then of course I would need an outboard dac, preferably with a phone amplifier and it all gets rather complex.

Edited to make sense!

:?

 

[Tarxman]

but what I really wanted to see was an integrated amp in the £300-£400 price-bracket which sounds like a '6005 and offers the same network-streaming features as a '610 without CD and radio.

It already exists - it's called the Marantz M-CR510. Sorry MajorFubar, now what would you like with that, a built-in ice-dispenser too?

As pointed out by DDC, I'm envisaging something a bit further-up the HiFi ladder than the 510. I already knew about the 510.

Tarxman: yep when the time comes I'll look around at other options.

There are now so many ways to deliver quality music at home and so many variations and different features that it is actually quite difficult to get what you want, particularly if your requirements are quite specific.

For example, the MCR 510/610 setup has pretty much all the functionality I would expect to need but can not be upgraded sonically, a digital or pre-amp out would sort that. A Uniqute does have that, but at the time of writing does not have onboard support for Spotify or less importantly for me Airplay.

Some of the cheaper streamers from the likes Pioneer and Denon do not have the range of functionality and some computer/network based systems are too complex for the more casual user. The Sonos Connect has a great interface but requires a tablet to control it which, in the case of even the cheapest iPad, doubles the cost which makes it rather expensive.

All in all, quite difficult. To keep things simple I do everything on a laptop and use Airplay, but I would prefer a wired solution with onboard Spotify. A connect would be perfect if the SQ was up to long term use, but is it?. I would be tempted by the Cullen/W4S mods, which doubles the cost yet again, then of course I would need an outboard dac, preferably with a phone amplifier and it all gets rather complex.

Edited to make sense!

:?

I'd have hated to have seen the version that didn't make sense! :rofl: