Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
Has anyone noticed that when Keith/Oldphrt has his ideas ridiculed (JohnDuncan this time), he either disappears for a while or he takes a couple of hours, instead of minutes to come up with a response.
[quote user="professorhat"]I love these chats. Especially when the guy who's so adamant it doesn't make a difference admits he's never tried it![/quote]
Not adamant, just informed in technical matters.
Not adamant, just informed in technical matters.
[quote user="JohnDuncan"]
Because it can't. It's just wire. Except speaker wire, because that's different.[/quote]
Speaker leads have to have low series impedance because of varying impedances in speakers at different frequencies, interconnects are completely non critical because of the impedances involved and mains leads have no effect because they ain't in the signal path. Understand????
Because it can't. It's just wire. Except speaker wire, because that's different.[/quote]
Speaker leads have to have low series impedance because of varying impedances in speakers at different frequencies, interconnects are completely non critical because of the impedances involved and mains leads have no effect because they ain't in the signal path. Understand????
[quote user="JoelSim"] the very least a block that stops a surge of power[/quote]
I agree, power surge protection is a good idea.
[quote user="JoelSim"] sends a consistent and steady 240v through your kit [/quote]
No conditioner can do that. It's down to your electricity supplier.
I agree, power surge protection is a good idea.
[quote user="JoelSim"] sends a consistent and steady 240v through your kit [/quote]
No conditioner can do that. It's down to your electricity supplier.
professorhat
Well-known member
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]Not adamant, just informed in technical matters.[/quote]
ad£a£mant ÿÿ ÿÿ[ad-uh-muhnt, -mant] -adjective; 1. utterly unyielding in attitude or opinion in spite of all appeals, urgings, etc.
ad£a£mant ÿÿ ÿÿ[ad-uh-muhnt, -mant] -adjective; 1. utterly unyielding in attitude or opinion in spite of all appeals, urgings, etc.
John Duncan
Well-known member
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"][quote user="professorhat"]I love these chats. Especially when the guy who's so adamant it doesn't make a difference admits he's never tried it![/quote]
Not adamant, just informed in technical matters.[/quote]
Keith, I respect your opinion that cables, whether they be mains or interconnects, do not make a difference to the sound, as I think it's a perfectly valid one to hold. Indeed, I don't understand *how* they can, I just find that they do, empirically.
On this basis, I apologise for ragging you mercilessly, but it's your logic which I disagree with, not the premise - in science, "just because" doesn't really hold water for me. You've hinted before at a scientific proof that they *cannot* make a difference, and I'd actually be very interested (as someone informed in technical matters, but perhaps not to the extent that you are) to hear it.
Not adamant, just informed in technical matters.[/quote]
Keith, I respect your opinion that cables, whether they be mains or interconnects, do not make a difference to the sound, as I think it's a perfectly valid one to hold. Indeed, I don't understand *how* they can, I just find that they do, empirically.
On this basis, I apologise for ragging you mercilessly, but it's your logic which I disagree with, not the premise - in science, "just because" doesn't really hold water for me. You've hinted before at a scientific proof that they *cannot* make a difference, and I'd actually be very interested (as someone informed in technical matters, but perhaps not to the extent that you are) to hear it.
[quote user="professorhat"][quote user="Keith McAlpine"]Not adamant, just informed in technical matters.[/quote]
ad£a£mant [ad-uh-muhnt, -mant] -adjective; 1. utterly unyielding in attitude or opinion in spite of all appeals, urgings, etc.
[/quote]
I also refuse to believe in fairies or that the moon is made of cheese. How very arrogant of me to be so unyielding to the possibility.
)
ad£a£mant [ad-uh-muhnt, -mant] -adjective; 1. utterly unyielding in attitude or opinion in spite of all appeals, urgings, etc.
[/quote]
I also refuse to believe in fairies or that the moon is made of cheese. How very arrogant of me to be so unyielding to the possibility.
)
professorhat
Well-known member
Okay, it was meant to be humourous, but I obviously wasn't so I apologise. But the point is, you can still be correct and adamant. If someone told me the world was flat, I'd be adamant it was a globe, no matter what they said.
At this juncture, I'll duck out and not comment again!
At this juncture, I'll duck out and not comment again!
[quote user="simonkee"][quote user="tractorboy"]I was just wondering if What Hifi has done / would consider doing a feature whereby their golden-eared testers do some blind testing of systems with / without pricey mains leads, filters, biwired vs normal setups. Should be fairly easy to prove or disprove statistically speaking whether this stuff makes any audible difference, no?[/quote] Excellent suggestion. I await with baited breath for What Hi Fi to prove the cynics wrong... Didn't they do a similar thing with TV chefs and a blindfolded Jamie Oliver couldn't tell pork from lamb? or maybe it was chicken and turkey...I forget...[/quote]
Its really up to the cynics to disprove the generally held opinion , certainly by anyone who is actually capable of hearing and isnt tone deaf, that mains leads and conditioners do work. Listen to an isotek cleanline or mini sub.If you can't hear a remarkable difference then you should just sell your hi fi and buy an aiwa all in one. And if you cant tell the difference between chicken and turkey or lamb then become vegetarian as there is obviously no point in you eating meat. Taste is 80% determined by smell anyway.Sight has little bearing taste.
Its really up to the cynics to disprove the generally held opinion , certainly by anyone who is actually capable of hearing and isnt tone deaf, that mains leads and conditioners do work. Listen to an isotek cleanline or mini sub.If you can't hear a remarkable difference then you should just sell your hi fi and buy an aiwa all in one. And if you cant tell the difference between chicken and turkey or lamb then become vegetarian as there is obviously no point in you eating meat. Taste is 80% determined by smell anyway.Sight has little bearing taste.
[quote user="igglebert"]TACIMA CS929 Mains Conditioning 6 way block with RFI Filter and Surge Protection
One of these arrived on my doorstep last night. Spent 80mins listening without it. Plugged my CDP & amp into it and could hear the difference in the first track I listened to. The sound was cleaner.
For £28 delivered you can't argue with that....
_Runs away as fast as possible_[/quote]
guy selling them on e bay new for £19. i got one recently.Mine made a difference.Of course i could just be a dimwit being taken in by the placebo effect.Or then again i could have a fair idea of what i am listening to. Mcalpines argument seems to suggest we are all astupid and are being taken in, which makes him a prize chump in my book.Either that or deaf cos even my mates girlfriend, who would rather remove a kidney than discuss hi fi, can hear the difference between interconnects and mains cables.
One of these arrived on my doorstep last night. Spent 80mins listening without it. Plugged my CDP & amp into it and could hear the difference in the first track I listened to. The sound was cleaner.
For £28 delivered you can't argue with that....
_Runs away as fast as possible_[/quote]
guy selling them on e bay new for £19. i got one recently.Mine made a difference.Of course i could just be a dimwit being taken in by the placebo effect.Or then again i could have a fair idea of what i am listening to. Mcalpines argument seems to suggest we are all astupid and are being taken in, which makes him a prize chump in my book.Either that or deaf cos even my mates girlfriend, who would rather remove a kidney than discuss hi fi, can hear the difference between interconnects and mains cables.
[quote user="Fraziel"]Its really up to the cynics to disprove the generally held opinion , certainly by anyone who is actually capable of hearing and isnt tone deaf, that mains leads and conditioners do work.[/quote]
Well, the placebo effect certainly works very well on you, but then I already knew that. :O) There would be very little point in doing a double blind test on someone that doesn't expect a difference, it has to be a test of the true believers..
Well, the placebo effect certainly works very well on you, but then I already knew that. :O) There would be very little point in doing a double blind test on someone that doesn't expect a difference, it has to be a test of the true believers..
John Duncan
Well-known member
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]There would be very little point in doing a double blind test on someone that doesn't expect a difference, it has to be a test of the true believers..[/quote]
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.
[quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="Keith McAlpine"]There would be very little point in doing a double blind test on someone that doesn't expect a difference, it has to be a test of the true believers..[/quote]
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.[/quote]
That would be like atheists trying to test the power of prayer, completely pointless.The placebo effect also says that if no difference is expected none will be heard.
Let those that claim a difference, especially in mains leads, be tested on it. After all, if the differences are really as marked as they say they should readily achieve close to 100% accuracy. They could also fly to the US and make some money out of James Randi.
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.[/quote]
That would be like atheists trying to test the power of prayer, completely pointless.The placebo effect also says that if no difference is expected none will be heard.
Let those that claim a difference, especially in mains leads, be tested on it. After all, if the differences are really as marked as they say they should readily achieve close to 100% accuracy. They could also fly to the US and make some money out of James Randi.
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"] Let those that claim a difference, especially in mains leads, be tested on it.[/quote]
Sir Bedevere:
What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3:
Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere:
A newt?
Peasant 3:
[meekly after a long pause[/i]] ... I got better.
Crowd:
[shouts[/i]] Burn her anyway!
Sir Bedevere:
What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3:
Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere:
A newt?
Peasant 3:
[meekly after a long pause[/i]] ... I got better.
Crowd:
[shouts[/i]] Burn her anyway!
[quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="Keith McAlpine"]There would be very little point in doing a double blind test on someone that doesn't expect a difference, it has to be a test of the true believers..[/quote]
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.[/quote]
Yes but Mr McAlpine understands science, so I'm afraid you're wrong
Anyway I refer his posterial ponginess back to his previous post where he stated that "at least it proves that mains conditioners can make a difference".
Mostly of course he should think about what power supplies and amplifiers actually do - not what they say they do on the tin. Specifically he should consider what the filtering and regulation (not actually that common this) in a power supply actually does. Filters do not remove noise, they attenuate it, thus some remains. Regulators do not stop completely voltage variation, nor do they even guarantee exactly accurate output voltages, thus some ripple and noise will remain. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that providing a cleaner input signal will result in a cleaner output signal. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that a cleaner output signal will result in more stable amplifier gain. Isn't it? Whether it's audible or not is going to be down to individual cases, but to dismiss it out of hand is simple ridiculous because no electrical circuit can ever be perfect. Although perhaps they would be if Mr McAlpine designed them - is this what he does I wonder???? Thought not.
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.[/quote]
Yes but Mr McAlpine understands science, so I'm afraid you're wrong
Anyway I refer his posterial ponginess back to his previous post where he stated that "at least it proves that mains conditioners can make a difference".
Mostly of course he should think about what power supplies and amplifiers actually do - not what they say they do on the tin. Specifically he should consider what the filtering and regulation (not actually that common this) in a power supply actually does. Filters do not remove noise, they attenuate it, thus some remains. Regulators do not stop completely voltage variation, nor do they even guarantee exactly accurate output voltages, thus some ripple and noise will remain. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that providing a cleaner input signal will result in a cleaner output signal. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that a cleaner output signal will result in more stable amplifier gain. Isn't it? Whether it's audible or not is going to be down to individual cases, but to dismiss it out of hand is simple ridiculous because no electrical circuit can ever be perfect. Although perhaps they would be if Mr McAlpine designed them - is this what he does I wonder???? Thought not.
John Duncan
Well-known member
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]That would be like atheists trying to test the power of prayer, completely pointless.[/quote]
Not if one of them heard a difference.
Not if one of them heard a difference.
John Duncan
Well-known member
[quote user="Andrew Everard"]
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"] Let those that claim a difference, especially in mains leads, be tested on it.[/quote]
Sir Bedevere:
What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3:
Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere:
A newt?
Peasant 3:
[meekly after a long pause[/i]] ... I got better.
Crowd:
[shouts[/i]] Burn her anyway!
[/quote]
S'funny, I was thinking of the ducking stool as well. If she drowns, she's not a witch, if she floats, burn 'er.
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"] Let those that claim a difference, especially in mains leads, be tested on it.[/quote]
Sir Bedevere:
What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3:
Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere:
A newt?
Peasant 3:
[meekly after a long pause[/i]] ... I got better.
Crowd:
[shouts[/i]] Burn her anyway!
[/quote]
S'funny, I was thinking of the ducking stool as well. If she drowns, she's not a witch, if she floats, burn 'er.
As with everything in HIFI, it's about matching. If you have an overly bright system with what can seem a brittle treble, playing around with mains leads, conditioners etc etc can act as a subtle tone control. Still, I would spend the money on better interconnects/speaker cables first! - This may be not what the majority of you (that use such filters) agree with, but I have tried a couple of mains filters/blocks and on both occasions found that they 'strangle' the sound. Yes, treble was 'sweeter' or whatever hifi term you want to call it but overall dynamics where muted. Impact, presence and dynamics suffered. All of which are important to me when listening to music, ANY music. Without these I find listening boring. Perhaps I just like some distortion left in the system!! I go and listen to live music, unplugged and amplified, every week. It does not sound hifi as some of these overpriced, utterly boring 'high end' systems do. No names but a well regarded company ... ok its rega ... launched some cd players recently. I have never heard the medium played more subdued, un-dynamic and UNINVOLVING. Just an opinion but if it has no life in it ... its DEAD. Now I got side-tracked but to come back to your posting re. filters, leads etc. ... try, buy and waste your money.
John Duncan
Well-known member
[quote user="jimwall"][quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="Keith McAlpine"]There would be very little point in doing a double blind test on someone that doesn't expect a difference, it has to be a test of the true believers..[/quote]
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.[/quote]
Yes but Mr McAlpine understands science, so I'm afraid you're wrong
Anyway I refer his posterial ponginess back to his previous post where he stated that "at least it proves that mains conditioners can make a difference".
Mostly of course he should think about what power supplies and amplifiers actually do - not what they say they do on the tin. Specifically he should consider what the filtering and regulation (not actually that common this) in a power supply actually does. Filters do not remove noise, they attenuate it, thus some remains. Regulators do not stop completely voltage variation, nor do they even guarantee exactly accurate output voltages, thus some ripple and noise will remain. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that providing a cleaner input signal will result in a cleaner output signal. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that a cleaner output signal will result in more stable amplifier gain. Isn't it? Whether it's audible or not is going to be down to individual cases, but to dismiss it out of hand is simple ridiculous because no electrical circuit can ever be perfect. Although perhaps they would be if Mr McAlpine designed them - is this what he does I wonder???? Thought not.[/quote]
And to join this together with a previous post, since a hifi is nothing but a fancy electrical circuit, would you agree that the mains lead is in that circuit (and therefore the signal path)?
I think the test should *only* be done on those who do not expect a difference, since the placebo effect will not be observed. Since if one of them *does* hear a difference, by the process of mathematical logic, the theory is proved.[/quote]
Yes but Mr McAlpine understands science, so I'm afraid you're wrong
Anyway I refer his posterial ponginess back to his previous post where he stated that "at least it proves that mains conditioners can make a difference".
Mostly of course he should think about what power supplies and amplifiers actually do - not what they say they do on the tin. Specifically he should consider what the filtering and regulation (not actually that common this) in a power supply actually does. Filters do not remove noise, they attenuate it, thus some remains. Regulators do not stop completely voltage variation, nor do they even guarantee exactly accurate output voltages, thus some ripple and noise will remain. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that providing a cleaner input signal will result in a cleaner output signal. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that a cleaner output signal will result in more stable amplifier gain. Isn't it? Whether it's audible or not is going to be down to individual cases, but to dismiss it out of hand is simple ridiculous because no electrical circuit can ever be perfect. Although perhaps they would be if Mr McAlpine designed them - is this what he does I wonder???? Thought not.[/quote]
And to join this together with a previous post, since a hifi is nothing but a fancy electrical circuit, would you agree that the mains lead is in that circuit (and therefore the signal path)?
[quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="Keith McAlpine"]That would be like atheists trying to test the power of prayer, completely pointless.[/quote]
Not if one of them heard a difference.[/quote]
Would they admit it? The main advantage of the believers doing it would be that they would be anxious to prove their position is correct and really try hard.
Not if one of them heard a difference.[/quote]
Would they admit it? The main advantage of the believers doing it would be that they would be anxious to prove their position is correct and really try hard.
[quote user="JohnDuncan"]ince a hifi is nothing but a fancy electrical circuit, would you agree that the mains lead is in that circuit (and therefore the signal path)?[/quote]
No, the signal path is where the audio signal travels. It doesn't go via the mains lead.
No, the signal path is where the audio signal travels. It doesn't go via the mains lead.
John Duncan
Well-known member
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"][quote user="JohnDuncan"]ince a hifi is nothing but a fancy electrical circuit, would you agree that the mains lead is in that circuit (and therefore the signal path)?[/quote]
No, the signal path is where the audio signal travels. It doesn't go via the mains lead.[/quote]
(sigh) and what is that audio signal made of?
No, the signal path is where the audio signal travels. It doesn't go via the mains lead.[/quote]
(sigh) and what is that audio signal made of?
[quote user="jimwall"]Filters do not remove noise, they attenuate it, thus some remains. Regulators do not stop completely voltage variation, nor do they even guarantee exactly accurate output voltages, thus some ripple and noise will remain. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that providing a cleaner input signal will result in a cleaner output signal. It is entirely reasonable to suggest that a cleaner output signal will result in more stable amplifier gain. Isn't it? Whether it's audible or not is going to be down to individual cases, but to dismiss it out of hand is simple ridiculous because no electrical circuit can ever be perfect. Although perhaps they would be if Mr McAlpine designed them - is this what he does I wonder???? Thought not.[/quote]
This is just waffle.. Any well designed bit of kit will be unaffected by your bog standard unfiltered unpasteurised mains supply. They're specifically designed to run on it, for gawds sake. If it was adversely affected if you put the volume up between tracks you would surely hear it in the form of noise with your super sensitive, as opposed to my cloth, lugholes.
BTW I did design a car alarm once.:O)
This is just waffle.. Any well designed bit of kit will be unaffected by your bog standard unfiltered unpasteurised mains supply. They're specifically designed to run on it, for gawds sake. If it was adversely affected if you put the volume up between tracks you would surely hear it in the form of noise with your super sensitive, as opposed to my cloth, lugholes.
BTW I did design a car alarm once.:O)
[quote user="JohnDuncan"]what is that audio signal made of[/quote]
That depends on what you are listening to.
That depends on what you are listening to.
[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]BTW I did design a car alarm once.:O)[/quote]
...But unfortunately the captive mains lead proved something of a drawback
...But unfortunately the captive mains lead proved something of a drawback
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