[quote user="Cablearser"]Absolutely. The more you spend, the better the placebo effect. [/quote]
Very Logical - NOT !
Very Logical - NOT !
[quote user="JoelSim"]But the biggest difference was when I placed all of my equipment onto a solid oak stand. The bass was just so so much more prominent and tight. The first CD I put on after installing on the stand was a CD I've owned for 15 years and listened to hundreds of times. I stood in my front room open mouthed, I couldn't believe my ears and basically spent a few hours tossing and turning in bed wondering just how it could be.[/quote]
I refused to believe that there was any basis for this for a long time, for anything other than a turntable where it's obvious that vibration will have an impact. However if you think a little bit about it, every capacitor under the sun depends upon the separation of two conductors for its capacitance. Any vibration could easily affect that distance, and thereby the sound. Some capacitors are known for their microphony, which raises the ugly spectacle of the word microphoney.
Now please note that the difference in capacitance will be small at best, it might even cancel itself out. For that matter, the difference in sound that this makes is probably an order of magnitude smaller and that it's probably so small you couldn't hear it. But it doesn't change the fact that there could be a difference and it could affect the sound and you mightbe able to hear it. Maybe... I really can't be bothered to do the sums to work it out
I refused to believe that there was any basis for this for a long time, for anything other than a turntable where it's obvious that vibration will have an impact. However if you think a little bit about it, every capacitor under the sun depends upon the separation of two conductors for its capacitance. Any vibration could easily affect that distance, and thereby the sound. Some capacitors are known for their microphony, which raises the ugly spectacle of the word microphoney.
Now please note that the difference in capacitance will be small at best, it might even cancel itself out. For that matter, the difference in sound that this makes is probably an order of magnitude smaller and that it's probably so small you couldn't hear it. But it doesn't change the fact that there could be a difference and it could affect the sound and you mightbe able to hear it. Maybe... I really can't be bothered to do the sums to work it out
[quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="Cablearser"]Anything large placed in the room will affect the sound to some extent. [/quote]
[/quote]
The trumpet was stunning, like the Trumpeter was in the room with us...
The trumpet was stunning, like the Trumpeter was in the room with us...
[quote user="Cablearser"]
[quote user="JoelSim"] the biggest difference was when I placed all of my equipment onto a solid oak stand. The bass was just so so much more prominent and tight. The first CD I put on after installing on the stand was a CD I've owned for 15 years and listened to hundreds of times. I stood in my front room open mouthed, I couldn't believe my ears and basically spent a few hours tossing and turning in bed wondering just how it could be.[/quote]
It's not that puzzling. Anything large placed in the room will affect the sound to some extent.
[/quote]
All i can say is you are only cheating yourself out of an improvement.
[quote user="JoelSim"] the biggest difference was when I placed all of my equipment onto a solid oak stand. The bass was just so so much more prominent and tight. The first CD I put on after installing on the stand was a CD I've owned for 15 years and listened to hundreds of times. I stood in my front room open mouthed, I couldn't believe my ears and basically spent a few hours tossing and turning in bed wondering just how it could be.[/quote]
It's not that puzzling. Anything large placed in the room will affect the sound to some extent.
[/quote]
All i can say is you are only cheating yourself out of an improvement.
[quote user="Cablearser"]
Absolutely. The more you spend, the better the placebo effect.
[/quote]
Is this the placebo effect that makes you think a more expensive cable is better because you expect it to be? Does this placebo effect still aply to those that hear a difference when not expecting to? What if you really, really don't want to hear a difference at all?
Funny how those that support the 'snake oil' theory never seem to hear a difference - is that because they don't expect to hear a difference? Or is it because they just don't have very good hearing? Or do they just plain refuse to admit to any difference at all.......
Absolutely. The more you spend, the better the placebo effect.
[/quote]
Is this the placebo effect that makes you think a more expensive cable is better because you expect it to be? Does this placebo effect still aply to those that hear a difference when not expecting to? What if you really, really don't want to hear a difference at all?
Funny how those that support the 'snake oil' theory never seem to hear a difference - is that because they don't expect to hear a difference? Or is it because they just don't have very good hearing? Or do they just plain refuse to admit to any difference at all.......
[quote user="Cablearser"]
[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]mains cables and mains conditioners arent the same thing - they are designed for similar but still different purposes. you would be short changing yourself if you only had a conditioner and the standard mains leads. i guess it would be like fitting a turbo in your car but not changing the exhaust... though im no car expert...[/quote]
Absolutely. The more you spend, the better the placebo effect.
[/quote]
Can I just say - I actually find this particular instance of our beloved malodorous octogenarian friend to have a particularly offensive name. It's not really necessary is it? Even if in many probably unintended ways it does seem remarkably appropriate.
[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]mains cables and mains conditioners arent the same thing - they are designed for similar but still different purposes. you would be short changing yourself if you only had a conditioner and the standard mains leads. i guess it would be like fitting a turbo in your car but not changing the exhaust... though im no car expert...[/quote]
Absolutely. The more you spend, the better the placebo effect.
[/quote]
Can I just say - I actually find this particular instance of our beloved malodorous octogenarian friend to have a particularly offensive name. It's not really necessary is it? Even if in many probably unintended ways it does seem remarkably appropriate.
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
Cablearser. No more science from you? Normally you spout a lot of A level Physics at us, mention bare copper wire and so on. Are you finally realising that you are so outnumbered by ordinary folk that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. Of course you don't. You just are not as clever as you think you are.
[quote user="JohnDuncan"][quote user="Cablearser"]Anything large placed in the room will affect the sound to some extent. [/quote]
[/quote]
Where did you get a photo of my mother-in-law from?
Where did you get a photo of my mother-in-law from?
[quote user="fr0g"]This Blind test results is interestinng...[/quote]
Cheapers...do we really look like those paedos on the second pic down?...
Cheapers...do we really look like those paedos on the second pic down?...
[quote user="fr0g"]This Blind test results is interestinng...[/quote]
Yip, but like the other popular test carried out that is published on the web, however well meaning and sincere in spirit, it is fatally flawed. They have failed to control the single most important variable in any possible experiment that intends to test the efficacy of a product designed to improve the quality of the mains supply. A damn fine try, which if the mains supply had been dodgy and had been demonstrated as such would have been valuable. Without any evidence that it was, it unfortunately proves exactly nothing.
Yip, but like the other popular test carried out that is published on the web, however well meaning and sincere in spirit, it is fatally flawed. They have failed to control the single most important variable in any possible experiment that intends to test the efficacy of a product designed to improve the quality of the mains supply. A damn fine try, which if the mains supply had been dodgy and had been demonstrated as such would have been valuable. Without any evidence that it was, it unfortunately proves exactly nothing.
nads
Well-known member
[quote user="JoelSim"][quote user="nads"][quote user="JoelSim"][quote user="nads"][quote user="heystak"]
- CONCLUSION 1 - for a £2-£3000 system spend about £125 a decent interconnects and leave it there.
[/quote]
Please define a £2-3K system. is this for source amp and speakers? and is that 125 for 2 pairs or one pair? and what do you think about speaker cable?[/quote]
Look at his tag, and he's talking about the vdh cable at £125 each, or less if you buy on eBay.[/quote]
so what were the other cables in the set up? sorry but if the others were taking more out then the ones they "tested" you would hear naff all? was it tested on his kit? or his mates? does he say. No. sorry i gave up assuming things a long time ago.[/quote]
You had a tough day fella?[/quote]
nope but as it was not mentioned in the OP how are we to know? ex wrestler thanks for the clarification as to the set ups used. My thoughts are that yes cables can make a difference but at what level they do..... i was a skeptic but i have seen improvements as well but how far...to go? we will see.
- CONCLUSION 1 - for a £2-£3000 system spend about £125 a decent interconnects and leave it there.
[/quote]
Please define a £2-3K system. is this for source amp and speakers? and is that 125 for 2 pairs or one pair? and what do you think about speaker cable?[/quote]
Look at his tag, and he's talking about the vdh cable at £125 each, or less if you buy on eBay.[/quote]
so what were the other cables in the set up? sorry but if the others were taking more out then the ones they "tested" you would hear naff all? was it tested on his kit? or his mates? does he say. No. sorry i gave up assuming things a long time ago.[/quote]
You had a tough day fella?[/quote]
nope but as it was not mentioned in the OP how are we to know? ex wrestler thanks for the clarification as to the set ups used. My thoughts are that yes cables can make a difference but at what level they do..... i was a skeptic but i have seen improvements as well but how far...to go? we will see.
[quote user="fr0g"]
Ludicrous! So you have to first make sure the power to your house is rubbish first!
I'll stick with my free mains leads and surge protection thanks...
[/quote]
Errrrrr no.
They tried, in good faith, to carry out a test to demonstrate that improving the quality of the mains input in to their systems improved the sound thereby generated. The failed to test whether or not the mains needed improving in the first place.
You have no need to demonstrate that the power to your house is rubbish, but if it were perfect then improving it could never improve the sound of your system by definition of the word perfect. If it's rubbish then perhaps it might, or possibly not. Which is where the tests performed fail - they have not controlled a key variable.
Think a little about what you're saying before using words like ludicrous, or you end up looking, as you do, like a moron.
[jimwall edits on Saturday morning]Sorry fr0g, unnecessary remark by me. You're clearly *not* a moron from some of your previously seriously amusing remarks, and even if you were it wouldn't be very gentlemanly of me to remark upon it. You have missed the point I was trying to make though, it's explained better below.
Ludicrous! So you have to first make sure the power to your house is rubbish first!
I'll stick with my free mains leads and surge protection thanks...
[/quote]
Errrrrr no.
They tried, in good faith, to carry out a test to demonstrate that improving the quality of the mains input in to their systems improved the sound thereby generated. The failed to test whether or not the mains needed improving in the first place.
You have no need to demonstrate that the power to your house is rubbish, but if it were perfect then improving it could never improve the sound of your system by definition of the word perfect. If it's rubbish then perhaps it might, or possibly not. Which is where the tests performed fail - they have not controlled a key variable.
Think a little about what you're saying before using words like ludicrous, or you end up looking, as you do, like a moron.
[jimwall edits on Saturday morning]Sorry fr0g, unnecessary remark by me. You're clearly *not* a moron from some of your previously seriously amusing remarks, and even if you were it wouldn't be very gentlemanly of me to remark upon it. You have missed the point I was trying to make though, it's explained better below.
Alec
Well-known member
It makes one look like a towering intellect, calling people morons over the net. it impresses me every time i see it. How do you control the quality of the mains...? You would have to make sure they were WERE'NT perfect, in order to see if they could be improved, and a vast number of people would be needed to perform such a test, as would a vast number of cables/conditioners, ranging in supposed quality. However, most people who care whether they can hear a diference will perform their own tests, which will always be open to criticism (placebo effect being just one), so debates like this are totally pointless.
[quote user="al7478"]It makes one look like a towering intellect, calling people morons over the net. [/quote]
Yeah, sorry. I'm really grumpy at the moment, I should try to moderate it. Still I can't claim that asserting that somebody else's comment is "ludicrous" simply because you don't understand it is very big or clever either.
However you clearly did understand my point because what you write right is exactly correct - you can't do this experiment trivially. If you don't control the quality of the mains - and in this context control does not necessarily mean change, it means "understand and quantify", then all of your results are meaningless. But you do need it to be imperfect in at least some of your cases - in fact rubbish would be better.
You wouldn't necessarily need a vast number of people however.
The easiest things to do would be two tests - as essentially the whole mains cable debate concerns two questions:
If the mains is dodgy, does it affect the sound you hear, and
Is the mains ever really that dodgy
So, go around and hook an oscilloscope up to the mains in lots of places, when they're doing the normal things they do there for the second.
For the first use a signal generator to recreate some dodgy mains, another to generate a test input tone to an amplifier, and then hook an oscilloscope up to the output of the amp and see if the tone is "pure" or not. Pop a few "control" cases in with varying degress of mains interference and there you go.
Chuck in a little analysis about whether any distortion would be audible, and think about testing individual products to see if they rectify it. If it's borderline, or perchance you want to listen to some music for a change, do some blind listening tests somewhere with known dodgy mains.
Boring I know.
Yeah, sorry. I'm really grumpy at the moment, I should try to moderate it. Still I can't claim that asserting that somebody else's comment is "ludicrous" simply because you don't understand it is very big or clever either.
However you clearly did understand my point because what you write right is exactly correct - you can't do this experiment trivially. If you don't control the quality of the mains - and in this context control does not necessarily mean change, it means "understand and quantify", then all of your results are meaningless. But you do need it to be imperfect in at least some of your cases - in fact rubbish would be better.
You wouldn't necessarily need a vast number of people however.
The easiest things to do would be two tests - as essentially the whole mains cable debate concerns two questions:
If the mains is dodgy, does it affect the sound you hear, and
Is the mains ever really that dodgy
So, go around and hook an oscilloscope up to the mains in lots of places, when they're doing the normal things they do there for the second.
For the first use a signal generator to recreate some dodgy mains, another to generate a test input tone to an amplifier, and then hook an oscilloscope up to the output of the amp and see if the tone is "pure" or not. Pop a few "control" cases in with varying degress of mains interference and there you go.
Chuck in a little analysis about whether any distortion would be audible, and think about testing individual products to see if they rectify it. If it's borderline, or perchance you want to listen to some music for a change, do some blind listening tests somewhere with known dodgy mains.
Boring I know.
[quote user="jimwall"]
Can I just say - I actually find this particular instance of our beloved malodorous octogenarian friend to have a particularly offensive name. It's not really necessary is it? Even if in many probably unintended ways it does seem remarkably appropriate.[/quote]
Agreed - I've removed it.
Can I just say - I actually find this particular instance of our beloved malodorous octogenarian friend to have a particularly offensive name. It's not really necessary is it? Even if in many probably unintended ways it does seem remarkably appropriate.[/quote]
Agreed - I've removed it.
Andrew, I presume from this that you have small children that go "boing" in the morning just like me.
In my case perhaps this could be contributing to my grumpiness...
In my case perhaps this could be contributing to my grumpiness...
Well okay, although strangely I'd have thought that the more expensive the kit, the better it's own mains filtering would be! I certainly find the results of both the tests I've seen to be interesting, and they don't particularly surprise me. I just think that we must treat them with a real pinch of salt, and maybe somebody sometime could do it properly - which is a lab exercise as well as lots of highly enjoyable listening tests!
By the way you're post crossed my proper apology which is added as an edit above.
By the way you're post crossed my proper apology which is added as an edit above.
[quote user="fr0g"][quote user="al7478"]...so debates like this are totally pointless.[/quote]
Even if they invariably prove nothing, I think they are a useful reminder that there is a HUGE amount of snake-oil...Very expensive snake-oil that companies are essentally conning obliging customers out of HUGE sums of money...
Whether or not upgraded kettle leads work, hopefully debates like this prompt people to really think about it, and maybe do some proper blind testing, rather than plugging in their nice shiny well-finished cable and getting the 'upgrade in sound they expected'.
[/quote]
And there, I agree with you 100%
{edits} well on re-reading maybe not 100%, I'm not asserting that it *is* snake oil which in this post you seem to - possibly unintentionally reading betwixt lines. But I hope the debate helps people to approach with a properly open mind, rather than either a suggestable one, or a fixed skeptical one!
Even if they invariably prove nothing, I think they are a useful reminder that there is a HUGE amount of snake-oil...Very expensive snake-oil that companies are essentally conning obliging customers out of HUGE sums of money...
Whether or not upgraded kettle leads work, hopefully debates like this prompt people to really think about it, and maybe do some proper blind testing, rather than plugging in their nice shiny well-finished cable and getting the 'upgrade in sound they expected'.
[/quote]
And there, I agree with you 100%
{edits} well on re-reading maybe not 100%, I'm not asserting that it *is* snake oil which in this post you seem to - possibly unintentionally reading betwixt lines. But I hope the debate helps people to approach with a properly open mind, rather than either a suggestable one, or a fixed skeptical one!
[quote user="jimwall"]
Andrew, I presume from this that you have small children that go "boing" in the morning just like me.
In my case perhaps this could be contributing to my grumpiness...[/quote]
No, just up and getting ready for the show down here in Bristol.
Andrew, I presume from this that you have small children that go "boing" in the morning just like me.
In my case perhaps this could be contributing to my grumpiness...[/quote]
No, just up and getting ready for the show down here in Bristol.
Our original "test results" may be flawed and - like all opinions - subjective. But the results convinced us that using better quality mains cables does make a real difference to the sound in terms of improved clarity, detail and soundstage.
It may be that we are kidding ourselves and we are talking rubbish - but we felt we heard an improvement.
Cables from Merlin, Russ Andrews, Clearer Audio and others all give a 30/60 day money back guarantee - all we are saying is give them a go - you have nothing to lose.
If they don't work for you - send them back.
It may be that we are kidding ourselves and we are talking rubbish - but we felt we heard an improvement.
Cables from Merlin, Russ Andrews, Clearer Audio and others all give a 30/60 day money back guarantee - all we are saying is give them a go - you have nothing to lose.
If they don't work for you - send them back.
I don't think they're flawed at all as such, they're extremely interesting in fact, and are a fine contribution to what will not doubt continue to be a heated debate to many decades to come. I didn't think you meant them to be taken too seriously.
I just like to point out that the other tests that found no difference did miss a serious issue - the cables can only possibly make a difference if there's something wrong in the first place. Just plugging a cable into a system and saying "ooh, no change" isn't a satisfactory negative because of this.
I just like to point out that the other tests that found no difference did miss a serious issue - the cables can only possibly make a difference if there's something wrong in the first place. Just plugging a cable into a system and saying "ooh, no change" isn't a satisfactory negative because of this.
[quote user="jimwall"][quote user="fr0g"]This Blind test results is interestinng...[/quote]
Yip, but like the other popular test carried out that is published on the web, however well meaning and sincere in spirit, it is fatally flawed. They have failed to control the single most important variable in any possible experiment that intends to test the efficacy of a product designed to improve the quality of the mains supply. A damn fine try, which if the mains supply had been dodgy and had been demonstrated as such would have been valuable. Without any evidence that it was, it unfortunately proves exactly nothing.
[/quote]
I agree with your assessment of the trial. I believe that conducting trial properly is a science in itself. Most of us have not been trained to recognise the many pitfalls and experimental variables that exist.
It was interesting looking at the results however. 6 people out of 15 got higher then the 50% you'd expect from guessing.
Also it was interesting that 6 people got below 50%.
While this might be the result of only having 15 test subjects, it also could be that some people are better at hearing differences then others. It would have been interesting to take those 6 people who got higher then 50 % and test them over a series of weeks to see if they still score higher then 50%.
A similar approach could be taken on those that scored less then 50%. Can they hear a difference and have an inability to correctly attribute the difference or do they just have bad luck?
The test was a commendable attempt at trying to resolve a very thorny issue but to have any creditability such a test would need to be properly designed/carried out by an accredited body like the IEEE.
Yip, but like the other popular test carried out that is published on the web, however well meaning and sincere in spirit, it is fatally flawed. They have failed to control the single most important variable in any possible experiment that intends to test the efficacy of a product designed to improve the quality of the mains supply. A damn fine try, which if the mains supply had been dodgy and had been demonstrated as such would have been valuable. Without any evidence that it was, it unfortunately proves exactly nothing.
[/quote]
I agree with your assessment of the trial. I believe that conducting trial properly is a science in itself. Most of us have not been trained to recognise the many pitfalls and experimental variables that exist.
It was interesting looking at the results however. 6 people out of 15 got higher then the 50% you'd expect from guessing.
Also it was interesting that 6 people got below 50%.
While this might be the result of only having 15 test subjects, it also could be that some people are better at hearing differences then others. It would have been interesting to take those 6 people who got higher then 50 % and test them over a series of weeks to see if they still score higher then 50%.
A similar approach could be taken on those that scored less then 50%. Can they hear a difference and have an inability to correctly attribute the difference or do they just have bad luck?
The test was a commendable attempt at trying to resolve a very thorny issue but to have any creditability such a test would need to be properly designed/carried out by an accredited body like the IEEE.
[quote user="Anton90125"]
Also it was interesting that 6 people got below 50%.
While this might be the result of only having 15 test subjects, it also could be that some people are better at hearing differences then others. It would have been interesting to take those 6 people who got higher then 50 % and test them over a series of weeks to see if they still score higher then 50%.
[/quote]
If there was any difference at least one person should have been able to score above 80%. There were a number of true believers present yet they only scored the same as would be expected by chance.
Also it was interesting that 6 people got below 50%.
While this might be the result of only having 15 test subjects, it also could be that some people are better at hearing differences then others. It would have been interesting to take those 6 people who got higher then 50 % and test them over a series of weeks to see if they still score higher then 50%.
[/quote]
If there was any difference at least one person should have been able to score above 80%. There were a number of true believers present yet they only scored the same as would be expected by chance.
[quote user="Cablearser"]If there was any difference at least one person should have been able to score above 80%.[/quote]
Why 80%? Statistical significance will be dependent on the the sample size, the number of tests and the nature of the test.
Why 80%? Statistical significance will be dependent on the the sample size, the number of tests and the nature of the test.
[quote user="Anton90125"] Why 80%? Statistical significance will be dependent on the the sample size, the number of tests and the nature of the test.[/quote]
While 80% could be achieved by chance I consider it to be unlikely.
While 80% could be achieved by chance I consider it to be unlikely.
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