I have been disappointed with bass levels for a while, with the overall sound lacking depth. I have put up with it thinking that a speaker upgrade was the probable solution. The missions are my first standmounts and i had presumed that the physics of having smaller speakers was the cause of my dissapointment. Today however, i thought i'd dust my spare Technics amp (su-a808 ) off and give it a try in place of the pioneer. I don't think this amp was well reviewed even when i bought it new for under £300 about 11 years ago but i'm amazed with the results. So much more body to the sound. OK, so it's lacking some top end sparkle and voices don't sound as natural but i'm relieved to find my missions maybe dont need replacing after all. The bass, although not matching the level of a floorstander, is certainly adequate for my smallish room. Just enjoying some Tool at the minute and the sound has so much more drive to it than it did with the a400. I have read many threads and opinions stating that the pio and missions were a great match so either i have a faulty unit or i just disagree with them. I'll soon be on the hunt for a replacement for the pioneer so any ideas new or used are welcome.
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matthewpiano
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The Pioneer is very fussy about source quality so may be it is the Beresford that isn't up to it... Only a suggestion. Certainly the Pioneer can sound a little thinner than some of the more traditional Jap amps, and the Technics amps were always that bit beefier sounding than most others but I'd also suggest that Technics perhaps isn't as revealing as the A400. Just my thoughts.
It could be that the replacement amp is not controlling the speakers properly, giving a perception of more bass, but is actually more of an uncontrolled boom. This is also more likely as you have stated that other frequencies are also negatively effected, probably due to distortion.
When speakers are controlled properly, or as well as their design allows, bass is tighter and less boomy and to some it can seem that there is less bass, but this is not the case.
When speakers are controlled properly, or as well as their design allows, bass is tighter and less boomy and to some it can seem that there is less bass, but this is not the case.
Matthew, I have heard that the pioneer is fussy and I had thought that I might need a better source than the Beresford too. The technics definitely loses some detail to the pioneer and is almost certainly an inferior amp in many ways. At the moment though I don't have the finances to try a better dac so I'll look to upgrade in a few months when I have some money to spend. Until then, though I am pleased with the new lease of life the change has given me and I'll continue to enjoy it until I can come to a decision on which way to go.
The amp probably does have less control of the bass too, but I suppose what matters to me is my enjoyment of the music rather than the technical ability of the system. It may be the case that I get used to the sound and notice the amps shortcomings more and more so I won't be too hasty in selling my pioneer (although the lack of remote alone will probably be enough for me to get rid).
I always prefer to buy used if I can. I have had success with reliability and no issues yet so will probably be buying without an audition (unless I go for something like onkyos' 8050 but sound quality would come first so I am a bit sceptical).
The amp probably does have less control of the bass too, but I suppose what matters to me is my enjoyment of the music rather than the technical ability of the system. It may be the case that I get used to the sound and notice the amps shortcomings more and more so I won't be too hasty in selling my pioneer (although the lack of remote alone will probably be enough for me to get rid).
I always prefer to buy used if I can. I have had success with reliability and no issues yet so will probably be buying without an audition (unless I go for something like onkyos' 8050 but sound quality would come first so I am a bit sceptical).
Gears of Law said:
Sound quality isn't an issue - this month's Hi Fi World carries a review (by Paul Rigby) who gives it a four globe rating. Sound quality rates highly though and better than you might expect given its lowly price.
I'll say it too having been through a fair few amps in recent years, the 8050 is a cracker. Form and functionality in one smart sounding package. Some say it's bright, but they'll have partnered it with the wrong gear, a risk with any separates just about; with my Tannoys and various sources, it's a winner. I listen to it for hours on end without fatigue and can't recommend it highly enough.
Definitely worth consideration then. A new amp with the functionality of the onkyo would be great. I would be able to lose my separate dac and some cables too. Any ideas of how it would sound with my missions? How would you describe it's sound?
If it's the original Mission 751s then it'd be worth a pop. I think the Tannoys sound somewhat like the Missions - I used to have the 751 years ago - and they balance out well. The Onkyo doesn't seem to impact its own character on the music so you get what is on the disc (which I like), but the treble and detail is there without being an ear bleeder, the midrange is lovely and the bass is ample.
Can you get a demo in or would you be buying blind? In which case buy from one of the trustworthy online retailers like Superfi who honour the DSRs.
Can you get a demo in or would you be buying blind? In which case buy from one of the trustworthy online retailers like Superfi who honour the DSRs.
Yes, they are the original 751's. I may upgrade these in the future but they are all i have for now. For what i paid, they are exceptional, but i suspect you know that having owned some yourself. I'll be sure to either get a demo of the onkyo or order from somewhere I can return if I need to. Thanks for your help.
On further research last night, the speakers which were sold to me as 751's don't seem to be 751's at all. When I received them, the writing on the back had faded badly so I had to presume that they were 751 as advertised. They look like 780 or 780se to me though and I think I can make 780 or 780se out from the faded rear panels now.
I did pick them up pretty cheap and I like the sound. Bit disappointed though. Might be best to look for new speakers first then
I did pick them up pretty cheap and I like the sound. Bit disappointed though. Might be best to look for new speakers first then
matthewpiano
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Post a picture and I'm sure we can confirm exactly which Missions you've got either way. The 751s weren't the only great speakers Mission made.
Reference the Onkyo TX8050, it is an excellent piece of kit. I do slightly prefer my NAD (which I sold my Onkyo for) for its slightly more natural sound but that is a personal taste thing rather than a quality difference. The 8050 gives a well judged and nicely balanced sound across all genres of music and controls most speakers very well. I'm not quite sure how they manage to combine all the features and such good sound for the price.
However, I would still suggest that, partnered carefully, the A400 is capable of outperforming pretty much any modern budget amplifier. Whether or not you can be bothered with all the messing about is another matter. It can get a bit tiresome and sometimes its easier to get a more enjoyable sound with less hassle by using a more gregarious amplifier.
Reference the Onkyo TX8050, it is an excellent piece of kit. I do slightly prefer my NAD (which I sold my Onkyo for) for its slightly more natural sound but that is a personal taste thing rather than a quality difference. The 8050 gives a well judged and nicely balanced sound across all genres of music and controls most speakers very well. I'm not quite sure how they manage to combine all the features and such good sound for the price.
However, I would still suggest that, partnered carefully, the A400 is capable of outperforming pretty much any modern budget amplifier. Whether or not you can be bothered with all the messing about is another matter. It can get a bit tiresome and sometimes its easier to get a more enjoyable sound with less hassle by using a more gregarious amplifier.
Gears of Law said:On further research last night, the speakers which were sold to me as 751's don't seem to be 751's at all. When I received them, the writing on the back had faded badly so I had to presume that they were 751 as advertised. They look like 780 or 780se to me though and I think I can make 780 or 780se out from the faded rear panels now. I did pick them up pretty cheap and I like the sound. Bit disappointed though. Might be best to look for new speakers first then
You thought you had 751 and you really liked them, then you realised that they were in fact 780s . How has the sound changed for the worse, knowing now that you do not have the 751s? Do you really need a speaker upgrade?
I think that right here is the perfect example of perception bias.
I thought I had 751's but was unhappy with their sound through my amp, which by many accounts, is a great match with them. I bought the amp and speakers based on this and although I am getting a decent sound through a different amp, I'm not getting the most out of the amp I bought specifically to pair with 751's.
I'm happy to keep the speakers, whatever they may be. They are still great for the money and I can use them with my backup amp as an inexpensive second system but I am keen to see what my pioneer can do and would like to have a better system in my main room.
I'm happy to keep the speakers, whatever they may be. They are still great for the money and I can use them with my backup amp as an inexpensive second system but I am keen to see what my pioneer can do and would like to have a better system in my main room.
Overdose said:Gears of Law said:On further research last night, the speakers which were sold to me as 751's don't seem to be 751's at all. When I received them, the writing on the back had faded badly so I had to presume that they were 751 as advertised. They look like 780 or 780se to me though and I think I can make 780 or 780se out from the faded rear panels now. I did pick them up pretty cheap and I like the sound. Bit disappointed though. Might be best to look for new speakers first then
You thought you had 751 and you really liked them, then you realised that they were in fact 780s . How has the sound changed for the worse, knowing now that you do not have the 751s? Do you really need a speaker upgrade?
I think that right here is the perfect example of perception bias.
I think that right here is the perfect example of annoyance caused by being sold something different to what was described! I'd be disappointed too.
matthewpiano
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Gears of Law said:
I think these may be 760SEs (I think they were actually 760i SE). I seem to recall that the 780s were badged Cyrus rather than Mission - can't remember whether that applied to the 780SEs or just the 780s.
I recall both ranges were popular matches with the Pioneer amp as they were speakers which worked better with amps above their own price point and expected capability. Perhaps not as strong as the 751s, but decent speakers nevertheless.
matthewpiano said:
Blimey Matt, you just bought the Onkyo a couple of months ago! It's gone already???
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