luck needed on vinyl?

boshk

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I found the price gap is huge buying vinyl compared to CDs or online (iTunes, HDtrack) music.

an example: Time Out by Dave Brubeck by Analogue Prod-$60 (cant find the uk pound sign)

Time Out by Disconforme or PID-$17, by Music on Vinyl-$20

There are many more like the above and its usually about 2-3 times the price of the cheapest label.

Reading about studio/labels and there are some who advise avoiding certain labels due to the fact their vinyl are just CD copies or worst.

People who still buy or new listeners (like myself who just started out), how do you go about buying whether its new or used? Is it really a hit and miss for us new listeners?

Do the following really mean anything? 180g/200g, Reissued, Audiophile, Remastered.....

Do you only buy from established labels like Analogue Prod, Mob Fidelity, ORG, Sony?
 

Hi-FiOutlaw

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You can always look for original printings, it's what I do! For new albums i always wait for the album review and then i decide if i'll bought it or not.

For me vinyl is to find original albums from the past and enjoy what i never did, because I was to young or didn't have the money to buy them at the time.

I buy AP, MF and ORG but have to be a very speacial album.
 
You have found one of the reasons that I always try to alert 'newbies to vinyl' to whenever they post here. Cost....

Unless you are prepared to invest heavily in getting good quality vinyl then buying that nice new turntable is a complete waste of time. It is all very romantic thinking that vinyl is the way, its undergoing a revival, it's the only 'real' hires format....... etc

Well some of that may be true and yet some of that is going to leave the newbie very much disenchanted.

To answer some of your questions 180g vinyl means little (except it is heavier than most 70's vinyl), it is not an indicator of the quality of recording nor pressing. Likewise 'remastered' is pretty much meaningless and often nothing of the sort. Very much a marketing ploy utilised by many of the established and up-and-coming vinyl manufacturers to get you to by their copy of something you may already own. I would always suggest that, if you can, you find a dedicated vinyl dealer local to you and buy all of your LPs from them. You can, and many people do, seek out the original pressings of records on eBay (there are some decent honest dealers on there, you just have to know where to look), this is a cheaper way to start a collection.

Buying can be 'hit and miss' but there are ways to limit the damage. 1/ Read reviews, get and read all the latest hifi publications (I don't include What HiFi under this label) that actually review LP/CD/Downloads as well as equipment. There are various online review sites as well including the excellent Steve Hoffman forum. 2/ Find a decent dealer and do not rely on buying online (a good dealer will let you audition the vinyl itself - you can make up your own mind). 3/ If you do head out into the big wide world of the second-hand market then purchase a record cleaning machine (along the lines of the Knosti Antistat) and bre prepared to use it on every piece of vinyl you buy this way before playing it. 4/ Research some more.

The likes of Analogue Productions / Music on Vinyl et al do, in some way, help take the stress out of buying but even they come up with a duff pressing every now and again (although this is very rare in my experience), the downside to just relying on these is obviously cost.

Enjoy!
 

Hi-FiOutlaw

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Al ears said:
You have found one of the reasons that I always try to alert 'newbies to vinyl' to whenever they post here. Cost....

Unless you are prepared to invest heavily in getting good quality vinyl then buying that nice new turntable is a complete waste of time. It is all very romantic thinking that vinyl is the way, its undergoing a revival, it's the only 'real' hires format....... etc

Well some of that may be true and yet some of that is going to leave the newbie very much disenchanted.

To answer some of your questions 180g vinyl means little (except it is heavier than most 70's vinyl), it is not an indicator of the quality of recording nor pressing. Likewise 'remastered' is pretty much meaningless and often nothing of the sort. Very much a marketing ploy utilised by many of the established and up-and-coming vinyl manufacturers to get you to by their copy of something you may already own. I would always suggest that, if you can, you find a dedicated vinyl dealer local to you and buy all of your LPs from them. You can, and many people do, seek out the original pressings of records on eBay (there are some decent honest dealers on there, you just have to know where to look), this is a cheaper way to start a collection.

Buying can be 'hit and miss' but there are ways to limit the damage. 1/ Read reviews, get and read all the latest hifi publications (I don't include What HiFi under this label) that actually review LP/CD/Downloads as well as equipment. There are various online review sites as well including the excellent Steve Hoffman forum. 2/ Find a decent dealer and do not rely on buying online (a good dealer will let you audition the vinyl itself - you can make up your own mind). 3/ If you do head out into the big wide world of the second-hand market then purchase a record cleaning machine (along the lines of the Knosti Antistat) and bre prepared to use it on every piece of vinyl you buy this way before playing it. 4/ Research some more.

The likes of Analogue Productions / Music on Vinyl et al do, in some way, help take the stress out of buying but even they come up with a duff pressing every now and again (although this is very rare in my experience), the downside to just relying on these is obviously cost.

Enjoy!

Nice post Al ears!
 
I thank you. Best I could come up with for this time on a Saturday morning.
regular_smile.gif


Perhaps I should have proof-read it before posting but hopefully the OP will get something out of it (spellings not withstanding).
 

stevebrock

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I can only echo Al ears comments.

I have learnt myself that buying new vinyl is a hit & miss affair.

Now I only buy new vinyl that has been mastered/engineered right and has had some user reviews. The last 2 being superb examples are the reissues of Pink Floyd - Division Bell & Grace Jones - Nightclubbing.

I buy 90% used and 10% new.

Ive just spun Pet Shop Boys 1st album - it sounds incredible!
 

Hi-FiOutlaw

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He will!To get vinyl right you have to learn some things for yourself, the site is a major help, but even with all the help in the world someday you'll be deceived somehow.I learn for myself some of the most important lessons, one of them is NOT to buy color vinyl, it look good on the TT but most of it sound worst that the original black one.I've got one exception in my collection "The Clash London Calling" a nice looking yellow copy.
 
The coloured vinyl made in the past was generally a load of carp. However some recent mono-colour or even mixed colour discs (from the likes of Music on Vinyl) are a vast improvement.

I would say though one thing, stay away from 'picture discs' ........ unless you actually want them to hang on your wall.
regular_smile.gif
 

boshk

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Al ears said:
I thank you. Best I could come up with for this time on a Saturday morning.

Perhaps I should have proof-read it before posting but hopefully the OP will get something out of it (spellings not withstanding).

Thanks Al Ear

Its good to know what you guys think. I knew it was going to cost more before I brought my turntable. As some have said, I could have spent the money on a better cdp (Roksan) or even buy ALOT of hi-rez albums from HDtrack.

I must admit though, I never thought about the quality differences and standards used between the labels. I can understand first editions or collector limited items being more expensive and labels from different countries commanding different prices due import tax etc etc.

Still, I find myself going for my vinyl and CDs instead of sonos.
 

boshk

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Al ears said:
The coloured vinyl made in the past was generally a load of carp. However some recent mono-colour or even mixed colour discs (from the likes of Music on Vinyl) are a vast improvement.

I would say though one thing, stay away from 'picture discs' ........ unless you actually want them to hang on your wall.

ha, too late on the 'picture disc', guess I'll hang it on the wall.
 
boshk said:
Al ears said:
The coloured vinyl made in the past was generally a load of carp. However some recent mono-colour or even mixed colour discs (from the likes of Music on Vinyl) are a vast improvement.

I would say though one thing, stay away from 'picture discs' ........ unless you actually want them to hang on your wall.

ha, too late on the 'picture disc', guess I'll hang it on the wall.

Good man. I'll go find some nails.
regular_smile.gif
 

thescarletpronster

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mgkwackerd said:
I think you have to read reviews of "excellent re-issues" and then purchase by recommendation.

That's fine unless you also like to listen to new music. I've got back into buying vinyl, when possible, of new releases. My experience is highly variable, with many pressings being very noisy (clicks and pops), even after cleaning. Overall, I've found that the US pressings I've bought have been poorer quality than UK pressings, although of course there are better US pressings and worse UK pressings. Coloured/clear vinyl (there is a lot of this in new releases) tends also to be worse than black vinyl, but there have been expections - An Awesome Wave by Alt-J (white) and the Parlophone pressing of Hvarf/Heim by Sigur Rós (clear blue/green) are both amazing sound quality. (The US pressing of the Sigur Rós LP was awful, with what sounded like the old 'wow and flutter' you'd get on stretched audio tape, and it sounded as though it was mastered from the CD. On the UK pressing I hear detail I don't hear on the CD)

I always buy original copies of older material rather than reissues. The only excepction would be where the original is so sought-after that it goes for stupid prices. Even then, for older music, you might as well buy a reissue from the 80s second-hand as a modern pressing new. For most things you could probably get an 80s reissue for a few quid, versus £30+ for a modern 'audiophile' pressing. On balance, I'd go for the older reissue.

Things that affect how good or bad your music will sound:
1. The recording
2. The mixing
3. The mastering
4. The lacquer cutting
5. The pressing
6. The condition of the media (for vinyl, clean and scratch-free versus dirty and scratched)
7. The equipment you play it on

All bar the first two will be different for the vinyl copy than for the CD/digital copy. I think, although vinyl is making a come-back as a 'premium' format, that as there has been so little made over the past 20 years, the art of mastering for vinyl and pressing vinyl have rather died out, so there isn't the wide base of people with expertise that there used to be. Some studios and pressing plants will have people who are brilliant at their jobs; others, I suppose, less so. I don't know how to find out in advance where a copy was pressed (sometimes this information is given in the run-out grooves). One label whose new releases have been the most wonderful pressings has been Domino (I have the two Anna Calvi LPs and Immunity by Jon Hopkins). I don't know where these were pressed, but unfortunately I recently found out that they have just moved all their pressing to another plant. I hope the quality of their pressings won't be affected.

I don't recall ever receiving a pressing when I was buying most of my music in the 80s which was duff, although there were some which were faulty (scratched etc). I've been wondering about this more recently: whether it just was the case that because vinyl was the leading format, there was a lot more effort put into making it right; or whether my expectations were lower (didn't really think too much about some noise on the vinyl), and of course my equipment wasn't so good. Now I've returned to buying vinyl to get the best sound quality possible, I'm more critical. However, I have to say, most of my old 70s/80s pressings sound excellent on my new equipment.

I agree that the ideal is to be able to listen to pressings before buying, but of course that's not possible for all of us. If buying online via mail order, you do of course have the right to return a faulty product (which includes a poor pressing or a copy of a good pressing with a scratch in it) for a refund at the seller's expense, including postage costs. Before buying online it might be worth sounding out the seller regarding their policy on this, to get an idea of how likely they are to kick up a fuss about paying for the return postage.
 

mgkwackerd

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I have 970 12" LP's, all purchased by myself in the 70's, 80's & 90's. Their consistency varied a great deal, sometimes a brand new album sounded quite poor (surface noise ticks and pops) I have not bought new vinyl in 22 years.

I have just recently upgraded my T/T phono stage and cartridge, and got all my LP's back into the lounge, out of storage, and am cleaning 380 with a Knosti (590 previously professionally cleaned)

So I purchased a new 180g double disc "Blue Horizon" by Wishbone Ash, £30, and it is no better than half my collection, and worse than about 150 of my LP's, so that will probably be my last NEW Audiophile purchase, but I have a local record dealer, and I will still buy oldies to add to my collection as my T/T set up is now extremely nice, and can easily compete with my digital sources.

My T/T, P/S, arm & cartridge have cost me £2800, and if it were not for the fact of having a nice collection of records in good condition, I would not consider setting out down the vinyl route, as a newbi, (totally agree with al ears) as the set up cost, and varying quality of source, would incline me to stay with CD, of which I have nearly 2500 red books (again varying quality (another matter)).

I think you have to read reviews of "excellent re-issues" and then purchase by recommendation. I will only ever buy new again if I can listen to it first !! I bought a new sealed "purple rain" old style LP, £3.99 which was excellent, so yes seems luck of the draw, in my opinion. (and I have 972 now, LOL)
 

Daz B

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Another place you can buy new and secondhand vinyl is record fairs. This way you can inspect the vinyl and I have found that if you buy mutiple purchases many dealers will offer a generous discount.

I have bought many of my records off ebay and have had a mainly positive experience. I do study the feedback for the seller closely before buying / bidding.

The stevehoffman forum is a good source for reviews for both new and old vinyl.

Do your research and you should be ok.
 

mgkwackerd

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Strange, but I do not have any picture discs or coloured vinyl, and only have one "clear" vinyl, (magnum on a storytellers night)

I read in melody maker to avoid such issues, back in the early seventies and I never forgot !!
 

MaxD

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Al ears said:
3/ If you do head out into the big wide world of the second-hand market then purchase a record cleaning machine (along the lines of the Knosti Antistat) and bre prepared to use it on every piece of vinyl you buy this way before playing it. 4/ Research some more.

I totally do not agree with this statement. I still buy plenty of second hand and many of my vinyls are over 40 years old and I never ever think to buy a washing machine, I'm pretty happy with some crack and pop, they are part of the vinyl experience and vinyl are a lot more robust compared to some people think they are. Scratch are a different story, then you can see the most part of the scratch on a vinyl and simply avoid to buy it even if some scratch are pretty much silent in some conditions.

So I will personally endorse the OP to start buy second hand in one or more phisical shops, so he can also enjoy the experience to diggin in the vaults, and watching the condition of the vinyl with his eyes, when he gain some experience in it, it is pretty much enough to purchase a decent and enjoyable vinyl.
 

Jim-W

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Do we call cd's 'Polycarbonate plastics with an aluminium layer'? No, of course we don't. Records are records; they aren't vinyls. Stop it.

Cheers.
 

Lost Angeles

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Jim-W said:
Do we call cd's 'Polycarbonate plastics with an aluminium layer'? No, of course we don't. Records are records; they aren't vinyls. Stop it.

Cheers.

Yeah , but we only had records in those days Jim unless you had a big fancy reel to reel.
 

Jim-W

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Hi-FiOutlaw said:
Lost Angeles said:
Jim-W said:
Do we call cd's 'Polycarbonate plastics with an aluminium layer'? No, of course we don't. Records are records; they aren't vinyls. Stop it.

Cheers.

Yeah , but we only had records in those days Jim unless you had a big fancy reel to reel.

...or a cassette player.*biggrin*

Yeah, you're right we only had a couple of formats so records were 'recordings.' This whole business of calling them vinyl came about when cd was developed in order to distinguish between the formats. They will always be records to me...I just can't call them 'vinyls.' Guess it's 'cause I'm a crabby old geezer.
 

thescarletpronster

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But, but ... CDs are records just as much as vinyl records are, and tape... a recorded form of music.

I know what you mean, though - of course we used to call them just records. It's interesting that I've been using 'vinyl' here. I suppose it's because we're discussing the physical format as opposed to digital formats such as CD and file. Also the OP is new to the format, so s/he may not be used to 'records' = vinyl records. Interesting: I'll play 'some records', not 'some vinyl', but the format is 'vinyl', to me.

I'll try to stop that and go back in time...
 

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