Any real benefit to preamp with no phono or dac in 2024?

[Revolutions]

A fairly obvious question mulling round my head this morning when taken at face value. Then I thought about the interplay between Occam’s Razor & law of diminishing returns vs the maturity of the technology, plus the added complexity of subjective perception. I wondered whether there might be some interesting discussion to be had here…

***Edit: updated to clarify the question***

If I already have my perfect DAC/streamer & phono preamp, is there any real benefit in sound quality from an amp that excludes the DAC & phono vs a similar priced model that includes them?

These items are cheap to add & manufacturers have been putting them in amps for years, so presuming there’s not much additional cost (nor risk that they’ve diluted their product to the point where it’s detrimental to sound quality).

 

[Fandango Andy]

A fairly obvious question mulling round my head this morning when taken at face value. Then I thought about the interplay between Occam’s Razor & law of diminishing returns vs the maturity of the technology, plus the added complexity of subjective perception. I wondered whether there might be some interesting discussion to be had here…

In 2024, is there a likely to be any appreciable difference in sound quality between a preamp/integrated amp with no phono or DAC onboard vs a similar priced product that does have them?

Don't know, but thinking out loud, at the budget end of the market maybe an onboard DAC won't be as good as an external one. Likewise, at the top end do people want as many boxes as possible making it easier to upgrade?

 

[Revolutions]

Don't know, but thinking out loud, at the budget end of the market maybe an onboard DAC won't be as good as an external one. Likewise, at the top end do people want as many boxes as possible making it easier to upgrade?

Oh, good point. I probably wasn’t clear in the question: I’m not interested in the dac or phono quality. I’m mainly interested in the power amp qualities if I already have a streamer/dac & a phono preamp so won’t be using the built-in features.

But now I’m thinking why do I need an integrated amp to power a cd player & connect speakers? Maybe there’s a smarter way of achieving that.

 

[Integralista]

Oh, good point. I probably wasn’t clear in the question: I’m not interested in the dac or phono quality. I’m mainly interested in the power amp qualities if I already have a streamer/dac & a phono preamp.

But now I’m thinking why do I need an integrated amp to power a cd player & connect speakers? Maybe there’s a smarter way of achieving that.

Hi, this is relative. Good modern integrated amp with solide integrated dac will improve sound of your 10-15 years old CD player, or even a streamer. E.g. Bluenote streamer sound via dac in new Elicit mk5 or Elex mk4 for sure better than via dac in Bluenote itself. Also means their dac inside is very good. And price increase implementing dac in new gen. of Rega amps was not so high, looking on pricing of standalone dacs. Same is valid for new Arcam Radia and A35 and A45. But these are toys for big boys.😉

 

[Revolutions]

Hi, this is relative. Good modern integrated amp with solide integrated dac will improve sound of your 10-15 years old CD player, or even a streamer. E.g. Bluenote streamer sound via dac in new Elicit mk5 or Elex mk4 for sure better than via dac in Bluenote itself. Also means their dac inside is very good. And price increase implementing dac in new gen. of Rega amps was not so high, looking on pricing of standalone dacs. Same is valid for new Arcam Radia and A35 and A45. But these are toys for big boys.😉

Also great points - depends on the age of your equipment from a DAC perspective. I’ve edited the original question to try and clarify my original thinking 😊

 

[gasolin]

you can get what ever phonostage,dac you like and don't have to pay for an amp with a dac or phonostage that you might upgrade for something better + the electronics inside won't effect the sound from the phonstage (hum,buzz) and the dac,phonostage won't have an negative effect on the analog inputs, less inputs electronics inside of the amp (or preamp) that can effect the sound since you use an external phonostage,dac

if you want an all in one solution theres always the yamaha network amps or an all in one amp from naim,denon marantz what ever you can find, a tablet,phone and 2 speakers and you're ready to go

 

[Revolutions]

Less inputs electronics inside of the amp (or preamp) that can effect the sound since you use an external phonostage,dac

This is the question! Given the maturity of amp production, is that really true of new amps? I’m expecting these problems would have been solved years ago.

 

[gasolin]

some prefer seperates, power amp, preamp, dac,phonostage, power supply for each unit that gives stable power, jitter,clock unit for a cdplayer,seperate streamer just look at youtube videos for hifi show how many units some may use just to play a cd or an lp to get what they think they need (amount of units, not so much the total price)

jitter,clock unit, power supply,transporter, preamp, 2-4 power amps when all you could have is one unit with a built in cdplayer

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJGnDSa71VE&t

 

[daytona600]

DAC/streamer & phono preamp £349 Wiim Ultra

 

[manicm]

DAC/streamer & phono preamp £349 Wiim Ultra

View attachment 6679

I've got a feeling this is going to be a good one. Great pairing with something like Acoustic Energy AE1 active speakers.

 

[gasolin]

I've got a feeling this is going to be a good one. Great pairing with something like Acoustic Energy AE1 active speakers.

Or 2 fosi audio v3 mono for £180 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fosiaudio/fosi-audio-v3-mono-power-amplifier

 

[Revolutions]

Maybe a concrete example might help clarify:
Naim Supernaut 3 vs Rega Aethos

similar price, one has phone stage & digital inputs. The other doesn’t. Is there any reason to truly expect the latter to deliver better audio due to price point & features?

 

[My2Cents]

Maybe a concrete example might help clarify:
Naim Supernaut 3 vs Rega Aethos

similar price, one has phone stage & digital inputs. The other doesn’t. Is there any reason to truly expect the latter to deliver better audio due to price point & features?

Surely you mean the Naim Supernaim 3? If so, it actually has a phono input.
At this price point there is more to it than just sound quality. I would expect them to sound different but both should sound very good. Each manufacturer has it's own design philosophies and often a 'signature sound'.
The Naim has many upgrades available (e.g. external power supply) which some folks might like.
Build quality, serviceability and longevity would come into play almost as much as the sound at this price point if I was making the choice.
If the amp. fails 15 years from now how easy are they to repair? Will replacement boards still be available? Will components on the board be available?
Look at the chassis of each and let an electronics engineer decide.

Here are pictures of three amps., the Naim, the Rega plus a Yamaha R-N2000a (a little cheaper, but still $4,000).
The Yamaha is a nightmare... look at the rear circuit board! It actually has a total of 6 PCB's and the rear 2 are obviously machine assembled (one is 'buried' underneath the other)... impossible to repair if something fails, the entire board has to be replaced.
To my eyes the Rega looks to be well thought out but the Naim (which looks pretty good too) has some very pricey bits inside. Many of these smaller manufacturers use components that are specific to them which makes them hard to fix in the future.

 

[Al ears]

Maybe a concrete example might help clarify:
Naim Supernaut 3 vs Rega Aethos

similar price, one has phone stage & digital inputs. The other doesn’t. Is there any reason to truly expect the latter to deliver better audio due to price point & features?

Not really no. However it's all about synergy and would depend on whatever you have in the rest of your system.
Although my amp has a phono stage I prefer the external one I had in my previous set-up.

 

[manicm]

Or 2 fosi audio v3 mono for £180 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fosiaudio/fosi-audio-v3-mono-power-amplifier

Nah, getting the AE1 is a heck of a great active speaker for the money, minus the headaches.

The Fosis will still need a speaker.

 

[Rodolfo]

Who knows: as usual in audio, it depends on many variables, including individual tastes, biases/preferences, imaginations, and presumptions, especially. I doubt "any real benefit" to a preamp without a built-in dac or phono stage.

And speaking of tastes and biases: with respect to those of others, I have no interest in amps that are any more integrated than my 2-channel stereo one, with its phono stage and DAC, and bluetooth radio, nor that rely on my smartphone and apps, let alone a texas instruments chip.