Low mass vs high mass speaker stands

[Ambrose]

The Apollo A2 stands are budget stands, so aren't going to be the best. There will be side to side movement because of their construction. Anything using a larger single column or three columns or more will be more stable, as well as 'frame stands', which I believe are under discussion here.

Hi, the Apollo stands are not A2 and not in production now. Same as these on ebay up for £25 except that the top plate has been drilled on these!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Apollo-Speaker-Stands-/160816995918?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item2571709e4e

Not sure model etc.

Anyone recognise / comment were these good in their day?

Very poor quality finish and the construction looks non to special as far as I can see?

Agreed not ideal but were free and considerably better than sideboard.

The top plates on mine are completely flat however with no holes or joining points. Those on ebay look like the top plates have been drilled out!!! Bizarre.

 

[Overdose]

CJSF,

I think now is the time for a put up or shut up situation?

If you have somehow managed to overcome or alter the laws of physics, or perhaps I am wrong in the assumption that mass counters vibration, perhaps you could enlighten me/us?

I am less than interested in your comments if they have no worth and if you have nothing more than an 'I know the answer, but I'm not telling' attitude, perhaps it is best to drop the portcullis too and release the crocs into the moat.

So what's it to be?

 

[CJSF]

CJSF,

I think now is the time for a put up or shut up situation?

If you have somehow managed to overcome or alter the laws of physics, or perhaps I am wrong in the assumption that mass counters vibration, perhaps you could enlighten me/us?

I am less than interested in your comments if they have no worth and if you have nothing more than an 'I know the answer, but I'm not telling' attitude, perhaps it is best to drop the portcullis too and release the crocs into the moat.

So what's it to be?

Against my better judgment . . . :

I 'put up' for many, many years, I demonstrated the differences, I sold thousands of stands. I've been off the scene for 20 years, my work has been lost to the general public and 'new'? . . . alternatives have been offered, either a simple 'mass it to death' way . . . or a complex light option that works very well for 'some' speakers?

You are right in your assumptions about physics, cant change that. However the words 'finesse, understanding and manipulation' do not sit well with the likes of 'concrete blocks'.

Thats as far as I'm prepared to go, the black art of filling a speaker stand properly so it works is worth money?, so I'll shut up . . . :?

 

[chebby]

Some of CJSF's thoughts on stand design can be found here (I believe these are CJSF's own words)...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/html/technology.htm

And a bit of background here...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/html/aboutus.htm

His FBA award (1985) for the Foundation stands listed here...

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201985/97/773766/FBA+Awards

And these instructions are generally useful too (regarding care in positioning and the use of Blu-Tack)...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/doc/Stands_user_guide.pdf

 

[CJSF]

Some of CJSF's thoughts on stand design can be found here (I believe these are CJSF's own words)...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/html/technology.htm

And a bit of background here...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/html/aboutus.htm

His FBA award (1985) for the Foundation stands listed here...

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201985/97/773766/FBA+Awards

The infomation from Foudation Audio Canada, is incorect. They never paid the full amount agreed, I never modified the Foundation stand . . . so anything they produce under my name does not have my approval.

CJSF

 

[Lee H]

Some of CJSF's thoughts on stand design can be found here (I believe these are CJSF's own words)...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/html/technology.htm

And a bit of background here...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/html/aboutus.htm

His FBA award (1985) for the Foundation stands listed here...

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201985/97/773766/FBA+Awards

And these instructions are generally useful too (regarding care in positioning and the use of Blu-Tack)...

http://www.foundationaudio.ca/doc/Stands_user_guide.pdf

Yeah, but other than that - what have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[MCRetina]

I heard so much about this Foundation speaker stands that i will love to see them, any photos or links?

 

[Overdose]

For balance, some links of my own....

http://www.rdhworld.myzen.co.uk/smfcu/index.php?topic=7158.0

http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/the-british-federation-of-audio

To CJSF, If an award was given by a truly professional body, then I would be more inclined to aquiesce to your viewpoint, as it stands (pun intended) it wasn't.

In addition, the only speaker 'stand' that has made any difference to my speakers to my knowledge, was a couple of cardboard boxes, even then, the extra noise came from the boxes and not the speakers.

I will wholeheartedly accept that some people will like speaker stands for the aesthetics, but to suggest that dedicated and specifically designed stands affect speaker sound quality is a stretch too far for my imagination, but then it's not my money being spent.

Edit: Shouldn't this be in the accessories section anyhow?

 

[Frank Harvey]

So you're saying that any old crap under a speaker will be good enough? And that something designed for the job won't make any difference?

 

[Overdose]

I was referring to the differences between speakers stands as designed, but yes, no speaker stand will be better than a solid, dense mass, such as a block of cement, with regards to sound quality. It is a nonsense and a fallacy to suggest otherwise.

I am talking about rather small margins here though and more in terms of absolutes, such is the very small difference that would be noticeable if at all, between stands.

Therefore, my opinion, would be to buy a suitably rigid, stable and aesthetically pleasing stand and be happy that your speaker won't fall off or over, that's it. FWIW, I rate such accessories as highly as cables and other such nonsense (and I have tried a multitude of those too).

I think I've said all that needs to be said or known on the subject, Nite!

 

[chebby]

So you're saying that any old crap under a speaker will be good enough? And that something designed for the job won't make any difference?

Well, it needs to raise the speaker to the right height and be rigid and not make any noises of it's own. Then it needs to look acceptable. (Not like an oil rig as so many do.)

 

[Frank Harvey]

I was referring to the differences between speakers stands as designed, but yes, no speaker stand will be better than a solid, dense mass, such as a block of cement, with regards to sound quality. It is a nonsense and a fallacy to suggest otherwise.

I've found some speakers don't sound to good with a heavy stand beneath them.

 

[Overdose]

I was referring to the differences between speakers stands as designed, but yes, no speaker stand will be better than a solid, dense mass, such as a block of cement, with regards to sound quality. It is a nonsense and a fallacy to suggest otherwise.

I've found some speakers don't sound to good with a heavy stand beneath them.

Perhaps there is something wrong with them?

 

[Frank Harvey]

The stands or the speakers?

 

[Overdose]

The speakers

 

[Frank Harvey]

Why would there be anything wrong with them?

 

[Overdose]

Why would they sound different using different speakers stands? If sounding better with a lightweight rigid stand, how do they sound with this stand on a carpeted concrete floor?

 

[chebby]

I wish this exchange would get to whatever point it's meant to get to.

It's like watching a chess game played by mail.

 

[Overdose]

If you are not interested, then do not reply to, or read the thread. It's really quite simple.

Unfortunately, I can only usually reply in the evenings and pms are not allowed, so that I cannot further discuss this with Frank without boring you.

I do not believe that speaker stands can effect the sound quality of a speaker directly and the only 'expert' on the subject seems unable to explain how and why they do. FrankHarvey was about to explain how, in his view, a particular type of stsnd effects a particular speaker. Nail biting stuff I know, but if you could just hang in there, the end is nigh (hopefully).

 

[Frank Harvey]

As I've already mentioned, I have found that some speakers just work better on lighter stands than heavy ones. I don't know why, they just did. The bass of some speakers just seem to sound plummy and ill defined when using high mass stands.

You say you do not believe they can make a difference - have you tried it, or is this just conjecture on your part?

And the name is David, as mentioned in my signature.

 

[fr0g]

I agree with Overdose.

Any speaker that sounds better on a lightweight stand rather than pinned to a heavy immovable one, is either poorly designed or designed for a specific stand (imo).

I'd also love to hear any rational explanation why that should not be the case and would be willing to alter my view accordingly. The link provided earlier was laughable... Using "molten lead" the mids and highs became more clear...yep. A solid, immovable lump...

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. Different stands make a difference, and I believe it's to do with their vibrational damping and isolation characteristics.

I see the stand and speaker as one ie. when you attach a speaker to a stand, it introduces a tied relationship that carries the mechanical vibration to the stand and beyond. Different materials have different effects....it's probably pure physics, but don't ask me to explain it.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Any speaker that sounds better on a lightweight stand rather than pinned to a heavy immovable one, is either poorly designed or designed for a specific stand (imo).

A stand, first and formeost, has to be inflexible. This is more important than it's mass. A flexible high mass stands would be useless.

 

[Overdose]

There is no difference whatsoever between a low mass rigid stand coupled to a concrete floor and a high mass stand on a concrete floor, as the concrete provides the mass for damping. It is very basic stuff as far as phiysics is concerned.

If you are placing the speakers/stands on suspended flooring, then higher mass stands are more beneficial in damping transmitted vibrations. The higher the mass, the better the effect. I have tried with several types of stand,including a pair of wicker chairs and there is no difference whatsoever in the sound coming from the speakers. With suspended floors, vibrations will however, transfer to the floor and beyond, the mass of the stand will mitigate this to some extent, but the effect is difficult to eradicate without mass.

 

[Overdose]

Any speaker that sounds better on a lightweight stand rather than pinned to a heavy immovable one, is either poorly designed or designed for a specific stand (imo).

A stand, first and formeost, has to be inflexible. This is more important than it's mass. A flexible high mass stands would be useless.

I believe that this has already been established, although I have not seen many flexible stands, do any exist?