Low mass vs high mass speaker stands

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shooter

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ESP put a great thread together some years ago experimenting with metal stands and filling to different levels using sand. He posted his musings which were very interesting. Shame I can't find it.
 

CnoEvil

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John Duncan said:
CnoEvil said:
The material that the stands are made out of makes a difference ie. Steel tube has a resonant frequency in the audio frequency (it rings), which is why sand is a good idea.

Aha, exactly my point above.

Well that's that put to bed then! :roll:
 

Overdose

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Well, yes, I suppose there are always exeptions to the rule. A unique (?) approach to the problem.

Steel tube(or any other material for that matter) does not have a fixed resonant frequency though, rather it will change given various factors, such as temperature, density, dimensions and design amongst others. Take a wind chime for example, same material, different notes (resonant frequencies).

Adding sand to a steel stand reduces resonance, in part, due to increased mass, but also affects the rigidity of the walls of the container being filled and reduces volume (another factor affecting resonance).

Ultimately, we want no resonance in the stand, particularly if on a suspended floor. The use of Blu-Tac acts to minimise any transmitted vibrations by dampening, being plastic.
 

chebby

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CnoEvil

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Overdose said:
Well, yes, I suppose there are always exeptions to the rule. A unique (?) approach to the problem.

Steel tube(or any other material for that matter) does not have a fixed resonant frequency though, rather it will change given various factors, such as temperature, density, dimensions and design amongst others. Take a wind chime for example, same material, different notes (resonant frequencies).

Adding sand to a steel stand reduces resonance, in part, due to increased mass, but also affects the rigidity of the walls of the container being filled and reduces volume (another factor affecting resonance).

Ultimately, we want no resonance in the stand, particularly if on a suspended floor. The use of Blu-Tac acts to minimise any transmitted vibrations by dampening, being plastic.

I agree; and I think you are now touching on why different stands "can" make a difference, and why this is far from a straight forward topic.

IMO. Stands need to have 4 main considerations:

- Stability. ie. Enough to counteract the forces generated by the speaker cones.

- Conduction. ie. Enough isolation to prevent the transfer of energy into the floor.

- Resonance Control. ie. The stand itself doesn't join in the party.

- Height. ie. Have tweeter at ear height when seated.
 

shooter

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Apologies, potboyslim started the thread. ESP and mitch took the mantle, just read it again, great stuff. Never did try the squash balls :(
 

Overdose

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CnoEvil said:
Overdose said:
Well, yes, I suppose there are always exeptions to the rule. A unique (?) approach to the problem.

Steel tube(or any other material for that matter) does not have a fixed resonant frequency though, rather it will change given various factors, such as temperature, density, dimensions and design amongst others. Take a wind chime for example, same material, different notes (resonant frequencies).

Adding sand to a steel stand reduces resonance, in part, due to increased mass, but also affects the rigidity of the walls of the container being filled and reduces volume (another factor affecting resonance).

Ultimately, we want no resonance in the stand, particularly if on a suspended floor. The use of Blu-Tac acts to minimise any transmitted vibrations by dampening, being plastic.

I agree; and I think you are now touching on why different stands "can" make a difference, and why this is far from a straight forward topic.

IMO. Stands need to have 4 main considerations:

- Stability. ie. Enough to counteract the forces generated by the speaker cones.

- Conduction. ie. Enough isolation to prevent the transfer of energy into the floor.

- Resonance Control. ie. The stand itself doesn't join in the party.

- Height. ie. Have tweeter at ear height when seated.

I agree with you regarding the criteria, although 4) brings in an assumption of a stand designed for specific speakers. It is though, a consideration when selecting stands. You could always lower or raise the sofa. ;)

The point I was making, was that the speaker sound will not change, if you have stands that are somehow making a sound of their own, via transmission, then that is another matter and one that I do not disagree with.

It was purported in this thread that certain stands affect how a speaker behaves, but the reality is, that they won't (even with just the basic design criteria met), only the method of attaching stands to speakers will have an effect on the speaker itself. It is possible that a stand may somehow have an audible sonic input overall, indeed, you could design something to enhance the resonances, but the ideal is for non resonance and is not too difficult to achieve.

Only the speakers should be making the sounds (stating the bleeding obvious I know).
 

CnoEvil

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Overdose said:
I agree with you regarding the criteria, although 4) brings in an assumption of a stand designed for specific speakers. It is though, a consideration when selecting stands. You could always lower or raise the sofa. ;)

The point I was making, was that the speaker sound will not change, if you have stands that are somehow making a sound of their own, via transmission, then that is another matter and one that I do not disagree with.

It was purported in this thread that certain stands affect how a speaker behaves, but the reality is, that they won't (even with just the basic design criteria met), only the method of attaching stands to speakers will have an effect on the speaker itself. It is possible that a stand may somehow have an audible sonic input overall, indeed, you could design something to enhance the resonances, but the ideal is for non resonance and is not too difficult to achieve.

Only the speakers should be making the sounds (stating the bleeding obvious I know).

IMO The OP was trying to find out if stands of differing masses (and possibly materials) effect the overall sound.....the speaker behaves the same but may sound different on a variety of stands, for the reasons stated above. I suspect it's the end result (what you hear) that actually matters.
 

Overdose

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CnoEvil said:
Overdose said:
I agree with you regarding the criteria, although 4) brings in an assumption of a stand designed for specific speakers. It is though, a consideration when selecting stands. You could always lower or raise the sofa. ;)

The point I was making, was that the speaker sound will not change, if you have stands that are somehow making a sound of their own, via transmission, then that is another matter and one that I do not disagree with.

It was purported in this thread that certain stands affect how a speaker behaves, but the reality is, that they won't (even with just the basic design criteria met), only the method of attaching stands to speakers will have an effect on the speaker itself. It is possible that a stand may somehow have an audible sonic input overall, indeed, you could design something to enhance the resonances, but the ideal is for non resonance and is not too difficult to achieve.

Only the speakers should be making the sounds (stating the bleeding obvious I know).

IMO The OP was trying to find out if stands of differing masses (and possibly materials) effect the overall sound.....the speaker behaves the same but may sound different on a variety of stands, for the reasons stated above. I suspect it's the end result (what you hear) that actually matters.

Indeed and what you should hear, are only the speakers. Unfortunately for the OP, things went south after post 1.
 

CnoEvil

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Here is an article that I found on speaker stands:
http://www.zenn.com.sg/Speakerstands.htm

According to this view, you are better with a certain amount of coupling between the speaker and the stand....though not too much or too little!
 

bigmoose

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Wow, I didn't expect that much response to my post... This made for very interesting reading, it's very much appreciated!

This morning, I picked my old Mission Stancette from the storage room, and moved my speakers from my 160kg sideboard to the light stands: the improvement was clearly noticeable! The guitar and piano had more weight to them, and the bass seem more controlled. The distance from the wall is the same, and height is also the same.

I do believe where we put bookshelf speakers matters. I just dunno in what ways considering my limited experience with those. very probably it depends on the speakers. In that case, I'm kind of disappointed manufacturer don't give more recommendations on what stands to choose for their speakers.
 

CnoEvil

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bigmoose said:
Wow, I didn't expect that much response to my post... This made for very interesting reading, it's very much appreciated!

This morning, I picked my old Mission Stancette from the storage room, and moved my speakers from my 160kg sideboard to the light stands: the improvement was clearly noticeable! The guitar and piano had more weight to them, and the bass seem more controlled. The distance from the wall is the same, and height is also the same.

I do believe where we put bookshelf speakers matters. I just dunno in what ways considering my limited experience with those. very probably it depends on the speakers. In that case, I'm kind of disappointed manufacturer don't give more recommendations on what stands to choose for their speakers.

It is unlikely that a manufacturer will do this (unless they make their own), as there is no accounting for taste (sonic or aesthetic).

IMO. If you have a suspended wooden floor, you should try to isolate the speakers from it; if you have a concrete floor, you should couple the speaker to it, and drain the unwanted vibrations into it.
 

chebby

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alchemist 1 said:
How do wooden stands fair in this debate ? Such as the podium speakers stands. What would be the pro's and con's ? :)

They wood sound organic and grainy of course.

The woofers wood bark and power wood be sapped.

They'd look oakay though.
 

alchemist 1

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chebby said:
alchemist 1 said:
How do wooden stands fair in this debate ? Such as the podium speakers stands. What would be the pro's and con's ? :)

They wood sound organic and grainy of course.

The woofers wood bark and power wood be sapped.

They'd look oakay though.
Yes, Barking's the word chebby. :)

Any thing else to add ?
 

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