If you mean to suggest that on the one hand knightout is taking the reviewer's word for it and on the other that he's not accepting Lexicon's word for what they've done, and that therefore he's biased in some way or being unfair, you should perhaps be reminded that knightout's view is based on observable empirical evidence, whereas Lexicon's claim otherwise, as it stands, is merely an assertion. That's a perfectly legitimate intellectual position to take, and I'm of the view that knightout has argued his case reasonably and fairly, paying close attention to actual facts.
professorhat:
knightout:Unfortunately for Lexicon stating they have enhanced the player without providing any details of exactly what they did, or how the players measure differently, is not going to be enough for many, or at least for me to take them at their word
But at the beginning of this thread, you were willing to take the people that "reviewed" (or should I say dismantled) said bit of kit at their word and believe they've done absolutely nothing apart from take an Oppo player and put it in a Lexicon chassis. And defend that argument very vigourously, despite not actually having seen any of this for yourself.
Interesting.
If the original story was inaccurate I am suprised Lexicon and THX have not quashed it and extracted an apology as the story would be libelous but for the statement it "appears" all they have done. The website took photos and took measurement, they asked Lexicon, Oppo and THX to comment before they posted the review. The review has not been removed by legal action. Lots of other websites have reported the details and no legal action has been taken. Are you suggesting the original story is a hoax, made up to discredit Lexicon by a compeditor or disgruntled ex-employee or what have you? This was the original line taken by the website that gave the Lexicon a glowing review, they steadfastly stand by the differences they saw and heard and sought to discredit the site that broke the story.
Since Lexicon`s product discription says it has "unparalleled video quality", and the definition of unparalleled is without equal. I have demonstrated I have not been willing to take Lexicon at their word from the start, why would I start believeing them now, unless they like the website that broke the story can provide photos and measured test results. If they have improved performance they must surely have documentation to prove it.
knightout:Unfortunately for Lexicon stating they have enhanced the player without providing any details of exactly what they did, or how the players measure differently, is not going to be enough for many, or at least for me to take them at their word
But at the beginning of this thread, you were willing to take the people that "reviewed" (or should I say dismantled) said bit of kit at their word and believe they've done absolutely nothing apart from take an Oppo player and put it in a Lexicon chassis. And defend that argument very vigourously, despite not actually having seen any of this for yourself.
Interesting.
If the original story was inaccurate I am suprised Lexicon and THX have not quashed it and extracted an apology as the story would be libelous but for the statement it "appears" all they have done. The website took photos and took measurement, they asked Lexicon, Oppo and THX to comment before they posted the review. The review has not been removed by legal action. Lots of other websites have reported the details and no legal action has been taken. Are you suggesting the original story is a hoax, made up to discredit Lexicon by a compeditor or disgruntled ex-employee or what have you? This was the original line taken by the website that gave the Lexicon a glowing review, they steadfastly stand by the differences they saw and heard and sought to discredit the site that broke the story.
Since Lexicon`s product discription says it has "unparalleled video quality", and the definition of unparalleled is without equal. I have demonstrated I have not been willing to take Lexicon at their word from the start, why would I start believeing them now, unless they like the website that broke the story can provide photos and measured test results. If they have improved performance they must surely have documentation to prove it.
Alec
Well-known member
kaotician:you should perhaps be reminded that knightout's view is based on observable empirical evidence
No, it's based on anecdotal evidence, unless that is he has tested the product for himself.
knightout:Since Lexicon`s product discription says it has "unparrelled video quality", and the definition of unparreled is without equal.
Neither 'unparrelled' nor 'unparreled' has a definition.
No, it's based on anecdotal evidence, unless that is he has tested the product for himself.
knightout:Since Lexicon`s product discription says it has "unparrelled video quality", and the definition of unparreled is without equal.
Neither 'unparrelled' nor 'unparreled' has a definition.
Andrew Everard:
So, we have people who've never seen the product indulging in speculation, and others going on hearsay suggesting what may or may not be proof based on what someone else has said about trying to do a software update that may or may not exist.
Not taking sides on all this, or anything - emphatically not taking sides, as I have no knowledge of the facts - but aren't we now in the territory of not so much a bush fire, as some frantic fanning by people who've heard a rumour that there might be a spark, even though they've not actually seen it themselves?
No.
So, we have people who've never seen the product indulging in speculation, and others going on hearsay suggesting what may or may not be proof based on what someone else has said about trying to do a software update that may or may not exist.
Not taking sides on all this, or anything - emphatically not taking sides, as I have no knowledge of the facts - but aren't we now in the territory of not so much a bush fire, as some frantic fanning by people who've heard a rumour that there might be a spark, even though they've not actually seen it themselves?
No.
Oh right, so your thirdhand reading of the secondhand information knightout has provided is what kind of evidence, exactly?
Certainly not grounds for at least one of the accusations you have already thrown out on this thread...
Certainly not grounds for at least one of the accusations you have already thrown out on this thread...
Do you mean me? If so, my reading is firsthand, by going to the website itself and seeing for myself. The evidence provided there is of an empirical nature, and I have subsequently read around too, to glean further information. I've no idea what accusations your referring to, otherwise.
professorhat
Well-known member
kaotician:If you mean to suggest that on the one hand knightout is taking the reviewer's word for it and on the other that he's not accepting Lexicon's word for what they've done, and that therefore he's biased in some way or being unfair, you should perhaps be reminded that knightout's view is based on observable empirical evidence, whereas Lexicon's claim otherwise, as it stands, is merely an assertion. That's a perfectly legitimate intellectual position to take, and I'm of the view that knightout has argued his case reasonably and fairly, paying close attention to actual facts.
All I'm trying to do is point out a couple of slightly hypocritical arguments from the said "unbiased" viewpoints (which to be fair, knightout has admitted several times he is no way unbiased in this!). Perhaps proof is on the way from Lexicon - it may not be as simple as getting a fully prepared piece of documentation out of the cupboard in case someone accuses us of copying someone else's machine. Perhaps proof of the improvements needs to be gathered and prepared to ensure it fully satisfies all the critics. I suspect Lexicon also still have a number of things they have to get on with in a "business as usual" perspective as well as keeping a few forumites happy by answering their questions.
At the end of the day, I'm not saying Lexicon are guilty or innocent of anything. However, it does appear a lot of claims are being made without all the evidence being available. I am therefore saying I'm not willing to make any judgement until all the evidence is available (this is a fairly common procedure in western countries). This either means a statement from Lexicon on the improvements made to prove their case, or a more thorough analysis done by the reviewer to prove that both pieces of kit are exactly the same. Not just the "here's some photos - they look the same therefore they are the same" argument we've seen so far.
But that's just me, I've said me piece now, so will be off
All I'm trying to do is point out a couple of slightly hypocritical arguments from the said "unbiased" viewpoints (which to be fair, knightout has admitted several times he is no way unbiased in this!). Perhaps proof is on the way from Lexicon - it may not be as simple as getting a fully prepared piece of documentation out of the cupboard in case someone accuses us of copying someone else's machine. Perhaps proof of the improvements needs to be gathered and prepared to ensure it fully satisfies all the critics. I suspect Lexicon also still have a number of things they have to get on with in a "business as usual" perspective as well as keeping a few forumites happy by answering their questions.
At the end of the day, I'm not saying Lexicon are guilty or innocent of anything. However, it does appear a lot of claims are being made without all the evidence being available. I am therefore saying I'm not willing to make any judgement until all the evidence is available (this is a fairly common procedure in western countries). This either means a statement from Lexicon on the improvements made to prove their case, or a more thorough analysis done by the reviewer to prove that both pieces of kit are exactly the same. Not just the "here's some photos - they look the same therefore they are the same" argument we've seen so far.
But that's just me, I've said me piece now, so will be off
Andrew Everard:
No, it's based on anecdotal evidence, unless that is he has tested the product for himself.
Neither 'unparrelled' nor 'unparreled' has a definition.
Quite right I have not corroborated the evidence myself, but others appear to have, still even if I hear alot of people saying the same thing it is only hearsay unless I see it for myself or read a court ruling.
Quite right they wrote "unparalleled" sorry for my poor spelling. I have corrected my previous post.
ProffesorHat I think it comes down to what you are predisposed to believe. If a story affirms your own opinions you are likely to believe it, as I am with this story. You on the other hand are predisposed to not believe it. You buy high end hifi at least cables and in this thread assert your belief they make a difference, relying solely on the manufactures claims and subjective reviews. The point about waiting for all the evidence is well taken, I may be willing to rant on a web forum and appear to you to be a one person lynch mob. Waiting for Lexicon`s response is sound advice, how long would you give Lexicon to reply, if while waiting for Lexicons reply it was nolonger commented on across the web and there was deafening silence on the matter, would Lexicon even bother to reply and just wait for it to blow over. I dare say Lexicon could not give a damn what I think or what the original website wrote, but the number of websites and people posting on various forums combined may force them to prove themselves innocent of the original websites claim if unture.
No, it's based on anecdotal evidence, unless that is he has tested the product for himself.
Neither 'unparrelled' nor 'unparreled' has a definition.
Quite right I have not corroborated the evidence myself, but others appear to have, still even if I hear alot of people saying the same thing it is only hearsay unless I see it for myself or read a court ruling.
Quite right they wrote "unparalleled" sorry for my poor spelling. I have corrected my previous post.
ProffesorHat I think it comes down to what you are predisposed to believe. If a story affirms your own opinions you are likely to believe it, as I am with this story. You on the other hand are predisposed to not believe it. You buy high end hifi at least cables and in this thread assert your belief they make a difference, relying solely on the manufactures claims and subjective reviews. The point about waiting for all the evidence is well taken, I may be willing to rant on a web forum and appear to you to be a one person lynch mob. Waiting for Lexicon`s response is sound advice, how long would you give Lexicon to reply, if while waiting for Lexicons reply it was nolonger commented on across the web and there was deafening silence on the matter, would Lexicon even bother to reply and just wait for it to blow over. I dare say Lexicon could not give a damn what I think or what the original website wrote, but the number of websites and people posting on various forums combined may force them to prove themselves innocent of the original websites claim if unture.
kaotician:Do you mean me?
Yup
kaotician:If so, my reading is firsthand,
by going to the website itself and seeing for myself.
Make your mind up - which is it? Going to a website or seeing for yourself?
kaotician:I've no idea what accusations
your referring to, otherwise.
Try
kaotician:Hmmm, yet they are carrying a £4,500 Denon
DVDA1UD Blu-Ray player and a £5,000 Marantz one, so the explanation you
quote above Andrew doesn't fully satisfy the point of knightout's
question. Personally, I think that Frank Harvey wouldn't touch the
Lexicon with a bargepole because of the issues around it, for
reasonable fear of seriously denting their own reputation.
Yup
kaotician:If so, my reading is firsthand,
by going to the website itself and seeing for myself.
Make your mind up - which is it? Going to a website or seeing for yourself?
kaotician:I've no idea what accusations
your referring to, otherwise.
Try
kaotician:Hmmm, yet they are carrying a £4,500 Denon
DVDA1UD Blu-Ray player and a £5,000 Marantz one, so the explanation you
quote above Andrew doesn't fully satisfy the point of knightout's
question. Personally, I think that Frank Harvey wouldn't touch the
Lexicon with a bargepole because of the issues around it, for
reasonable fear of seriously denting their own reputation.
professorhat:
kaotician:If you mean to suggest that on the one hand knightout is taking the reviewer's word for it and on the other that he's not accepting Lexicon's word for what they've done, and that therefore he's biased in some way or being unfair, you should perhaps be reminded that knightout's view is based on observable empirical evidence, whereas Lexicon's claim otherwise, as it stands, is merely an assertion. That's a perfectly legitimate intellectual position to take, and I'm of the view that knightout has argued his case reasonably and fairly, paying close attention to actual facts.
Not just the "here's some photos - they look the same therefore they are the same" argument we've seen so far.
But that's just me, I've said me piece now, so will be off
One last thing from the West here too, if that's alright by you, and that is there's rather more detail in the review than your dismissive and disparaging comment quoted above suggests.
kaotician:If you mean to suggest that on the one hand knightout is taking the reviewer's word for it and on the other that he's not accepting Lexicon's word for what they've done, and that therefore he's biased in some way or being unfair, you should perhaps be reminded that knightout's view is based on observable empirical evidence, whereas Lexicon's claim otherwise, as it stands, is merely an assertion. That's a perfectly legitimate intellectual position to take, and I'm of the view that knightout has argued his case reasonably and fairly, paying close attention to actual facts.
Not just the "here's some photos - they look the same therefore they are the same" argument we've seen so far.
But that's just me, I've said me piece now, so will be off
One last thing from the West here too, if that's alright by you, and that is there's rather more detail in the review than your dismissive and disparaging comment quoted above suggests.
Andrew Everard:
kaotician:Do you mean me?
Yup
kaotician:If so, my reading is firsthand,
by going to the website itself and seeing for myself.
Make your mind up - which is it? Going to a website or seeing for yourself?
kaotician:I've no idea what accusations
your referring to, otherwise.
Try
kaotician:Hmmm, yet they are carrying a £4,500 Denon
DVDA1UD Blu-Ray player and a £5,000 Marantz one, so the explanation you
quote above Andrew doesn't fully satisfy the point of knightout's
question. Personally, I think that Frank Harvey wouldn't touch the
Lexicon with a bargepole because of the issues around it, for
reasonable fear of seriously denting their own reputation.
I've seen the evidence for myself, by going to the website. It's presented there. If you have reasoned grounds for doubting the fidelity of the review, feel free to elaborate.
To describe my quote above as 'an accusation' is merely intemperate of you. FH's original assertion as to why they wouldn't carry the Lexicon ie price isn't borne out by the facts - that's not an accusation, merely the truth of it. FH did not deny my 2nd point you quote.
kaotician:Do you mean me?
Yup
kaotician:If so, my reading is firsthand,
by going to the website itself and seeing for myself.
Make your mind up - which is it? Going to a website or seeing for yourself?
kaotician:I've no idea what accusations
your referring to, otherwise.
Try
kaotician:Hmmm, yet they are carrying a £4,500 Denon
DVDA1UD Blu-Ray player and a £5,000 Marantz one, so the explanation you
quote above Andrew doesn't fully satisfy the point of knightout's
question. Personally, I think that Frank Harvey wouldn't touch the
Lexicon with a bargepole because of the issues around it, for
reasonable fear of seriously denting their own reputation.
I've seen the evidence for myself, by going to the website. It's presented there. If you have reasoned grounds for doubting the fidelity of the review, feel free to elaborate.
To describe my quote above as 'an accusation' is merely intemperate of you. FH's original assertion as to why they wouldn't carry the Lexicon ie price isn't borne out by the facts - that's not an accusation, merely the truth of it. FH did not deny my 2nd point you quote.
kaotician:To describe my quote above as 'an accusation' is merely intemperate of you. FH's original assertion as to why they wouldn't carry the Lexicon ie price isn't borne out by the facts - that's not an accusation, merely the truth of it. FH did not deny my 2nd point you quote.
So the fact David couldn't be bothered to argue with your twisted interpretation of what he'd said is proof, then? He gave a perfectly good explanation, twice, of the company stocking policy, and in giving your interpretation of what you felt were the real reasons you suggested he was lying.
So the fact David couldn't be bothered to argue with your twisted interpretation of what he'd said is proof, then? He gave a perfectly good explanation, twice, of the company stocking policy, and in giving your interpretation of what you felt were the real reasons you suggested he was lying.
what an interesting thread , i googled , lexicon is oppo , and it threw up lots of info , very interesting , all this courtroom like talk on here is just silly , alleged this , need facts that , conclusive proof the other , lets face it folks ..
lexicon got caught with their pants down , they were trying to make lots of money , duping people into buying a clone with a designer label , and its backfired on them , cest la vie......
lexicon got caught with their pants down , they were trying to make lots of money , duping people into buying a clone with a designer label , and its backfired on them , cest la vie......
Again, that's an interpretation, and putting it in bold doesn't make it any more than that.
And since this thread is now going round in circles, let's call it a day, huh?
And since this thread is now going round in circles, let's call it a day, huh?
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