Lexicon BD-30 is a Oppo BDP-83

[Frank Harvey]

kaotician:Hmmm, yet they are carrying a £4,500 Denon DVDA1UD Blu-Ray player and a £5,000 Marantz one, so the explanation you quote above Andrew doesn't fully satisfy the point of knightout's question. Personally, I think that Frank Harvey wouldn't touch the Lexicon with a bargepole because of the issues around it, for reasonable fear of seriously denting their own reputation.

We don't carry the Denon or the Marantz on demo. We don't feel that Bluray players at this sort of price point are fully justifiable. Most people would rather go for a cheaper player and buy loads of films, as I've previously stated.

 

[Frank Harvey]

knightout:The price £1-2K or £4+K is irrelevent.

How? I've stated that Bluray players show discernable differences up to that point, and when compared to much more expensive players they seem much better value than £4/5k players. The main difference here would be stereo performance. Comparing these price points are quite different now with a full HD source when compared to the good old days with DVD players.

I believe that manufactures should be more forth coming in exactly what improvements they have made to justify the price...

I agree.

When we know the differences that have been made by the manufacturer we can relay that to the customer. We can also relay how we feel it performs in comparison to similarly priced models.

Personally, I don't feel I need to add anything to what I've already said. I made my point way back earlier in this thread.

 

[Anonymous]

knightout:

.........unless his golden ears and eyes are unlike hifi reviewers immune to placebo effect.

 

[Andrew Everard]

See, I'd say more like...

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:

knightout: unless his golden ears and eyes are unlike hifi reviewers immune to placebo effect.

Thanks for that. At least we know where you're coming from now...

I would have thought my link to the Audio Myths Workshop video would of made that obvious within the first 10mins of the video. If my opinion was not already blantly obvious by my stated opinion in previous posts in this thread that even when physical modifications are made by high-end manufactures they do not neccessarily give a significant improvement in performance despite subjective reviews stating otherwise. Did you think that somehow my opinions were present hifi reviewers company excepted, although I was actually refering to the American site that reviewed the Lexicon. My views in your opinion maybe wrong and blinkered, you may think I have an axe to grind, but its not as if I have walked up all smiles and suddenly revealed my personal bias. Do I have faith that if What Hifi had reviewed the Lexicon before this became common knowledge, that their golden ears and eyes would have revealed the truth, no.

 

[Andrew Everard]

I see.

Seems odd that you view our work with such contempt, yet choose to state your opinion on a site paid for by a publication carrying just the kind of reviewing you feel is flawed.

Isn't that just the tiniest bit hypocritical?

 

[Anonymous]

Our dissenting opinions not welcome? Are you asking me to leave because I do not agree with What HiFi`s approach to reviews? Do you believe I have some kind of hidden motivation that causes me to post on your forum?

I disagree and an happy to disagree, I post on other forums where THX and ISF calibrators reside and have heated debates about the short commings of the organizations they support and their often inflated opinion of what calibration can achieve. On enthusiast satellite forums where some people recommend products I do not agree are the best or live up to their marketing claims.

I join discussions where I disagree with the stated opinion and have several times at least in other forums changed my opinion on having compelling information that my original opinion was based on faulty information or poor understanding. I also post when I think I might be informative or helpful. On technical forums I also post and discuss things when I seeking to learn, understand.

A forum with lots of varying and sometime dissenting opinions, I find entertaining to read. If you would prefer a forum that is a mutual appreciation society with buyers congratulating each other on their purchases and joining in rave praise of products or a fan club for What Hifi, just say so and I will cease to post. Maybe you should add to the house rules a list of subjects that are not open for discussion, if you feel the merits of subjective testing vs measurements and double blind testing should never be mentioned.

 

[Clare Newsome]

That's certainly not the case, but please don't be so dismissive. I can think of a review in recent history - of a high-end projector (the DreamVision Dreambee) - where we gave it a poor rating as it was essentially a re-packaged JVC with a massive mark-up. We open up kit all the time to see what's inside, incidentally.

 

[Andrew Everard]

knightout:Our dissenting opinions not welcome? Are you asking me to leave because I do not agree with What HiFi`s approach to reviews? Do you believe I have some kind of hidden motivation that causes me to post on your forum?

No, no, and no.

knightout:A forum with lots of varying and sometime dissenting opinions, I find entertaining to read. If you would prefer a forum that is a mutual appreciation society with buyers congratulating each other on their purchases and joining in rave praise of products or a fan club for What Hifi, just say so and I will cease to post.

See, you really can't resist, can you? We aim to have a friendly, welcoming forum that doesn't discourage newcomers, and the abrasive, confrontational attitude you are displaying is unhelpful.

 

[Anonymous]

All this thread is over, is a company using other parts ect...

I wonder how many things you have bought, say breville or kenwood and they are made by some place in china that makes beko tv's as well.

If you have bought this product then return it, or write a letter of complaint into the company.

If you have not bought it, but are not happy about what they are doing, then DISCUSS or write into lexicon and ask why,dont hack on people for their opinions (IT IS A FORUM)

I dont understand why people are getting deffensive, I would not buy one of these, nor a 100.00 hdmi cable, nor a blu-ray player that costs 4000.00 which the 760 could probably do better.

Just my 2 cents, This is a friendly forum and everyone one here has helped me get my system including dave, and after speaking to him on the phone, I would say he knows more than most on here.

Are people going to deffend what they sell.... Yes as they feel its a good product, if they thought it was rubbish then they would not sell, and if they were selling garbage to people, they would spread the word and never come back, and they would be out of business.

 

[Alec]

Andrew Everard:

maxflinn:these threads usually get locked .....

Only if they descend into futile mudslinging and abuse.

 

[Anonymous]

knightout: I disagree and an happy to disagree, I post on other forums where THX and ISF calibrators reside and have heated debates about the short commings of the organizations they support and their often inflated opinion of what calibration can achieve. On enthusiast satellite forums where some people recommend products I do not agree are the best or live up to their marketing claims.

So you're a troublemaker

or

a crusader for justice?

 

[Anonymous]

Clare Newsome:That's certainly not the case, but please don't be so dismissive. I can think of a review in recent history - of a high-end projector (the DreamVision Dreambee) - where we gave it a poor rating as it was essentially a re-packaged JVC with a massive mark-up. We open up kit all the time to see what's inside, incidentally.

It is nice to hear that you are confident that unlike the American review site you would not have been fooled and it is good to know that you routinely take the lid of products and check what is inside.

 

[Clare Newsome]

The software (eg identical/near-identical menu systems) is often a giveaway, too - for example with the Yamaha Blu-ray player, the menus hinted at the Panasonic basis of the player. In that case, however, Yamaha added its own video and audio processing to Panasnoic's basic transport/software.

 

[Anonymous]

canada16:

All this thread is over, is a company using other parts ect...

I wonder how many things you have bought, say breville or kenwood and they are made by some place in china that makes beko tv's as well.

If you have bought this product then return it, or write a letter of complaint into the company.

If you have not bought it, but are not happy about what they are doing, then DISCUSS or write into lexicon and ask why,dont hack on people for their opinions (IT IS A FORUM)

I dont understand why people are getting deffensive, I would not buy one of these, nor a 100.00 hdmi cable, nor a blu-ray player that costs 4000.00 which the 760 could probably do better.

Just my 2 cents, This is a friendly forum and everyone one here has helped me get my system including dave, and after speaking to him on the phone, I would say he knows more than most on here.

Are people going to deffend what they sell.... Yes as they feel its a good product, if they thought it was rubbish then they would not sell, and if they were selling garbage to people, they would spread the word and never come back, and they would be out of business.

For me Lexicons actions are not comparable to diffences in price and components in kettles. The kettle manufactures rely on styling and a reputation for better customer support, I do not believe they encourage any false expectations of a better performing kettle that makes my cup of tea taste better.

The Lexicon situation is not just a case of a company using anothers components, because they led people to believe the product would have improved performance it calls into question the integrity of Lexicon and given the refences to it being common practice, other hi-end companys. As Lexicon I assume expected to get away with it I think it calls into question what benefit physical upgrades when made by a hi-end manufacture actually provide in way of improved performance, did Lexicon believe it was short changing its customers or just being expedient. Since it was given a glowing review by another site, it also calls into question the merit of subjective reviews not backed up by technical investigation, be they taking the lid of or measuring the results. FrankHarveyHiFi appeared to not view the actions of Lexicon or other high-end av manufactures as in anyway remarkable or condemenable, merely normal common buisness practice, but states he would not stock it so must view it as bad buisness practice. You likewise seem to view it as just normal business practice, whats the problem. FrankHarveryHiFi and ProffesorHat found the idea that physical upgrades even when performed might not improve performance objectionable. What Hifi got defensive when I raised the point of it calling into question the merit of subjective reviews, although they now state that they unlike the other site caught out by this episode have spotted ringers in the past and routinely take the lid of products. Which is nice to know and reassuring.

A forum is a place of open discussion. Discussion is not just stating your opinion it is defending and explaining it and expanding on it, and possibly changing it or convincing others to change theirs.

 

[professorhat]

Has anyone actually definitely determined that the only software change made by Lexicon is the splash screen. As that seems incredibly pertinent information to me, and the review doesn't really show that they tested to see if this is the case. In fact, it looks like they didn't even review it:

"We see no reason to waste the time or energy in reviewing the Lexicon when they clearly just put an Oppo BDP-83 into a new case."

Okay, they ran some benchmark tests which looks to have potentially rather embarrassed the THX certification process, but surely, to be ultimately thorough, they could have done the normal reviewing process as well, just to ensure that in a side-by-side comparison, the results were identical?

 

[hammill]

professorhat:

Has anyone actually definitely determined that the only software change made by Lexicon is the splash screen. As that seems incredibly pertinent information to me, and the review doesn't really show that they tested to see if this is the case. In fact, it looks like they didn't even review it:

"We see no reason to waste the time or energy in reviewing the Lexicon when they clearly just put an Oppo BDP-83 into a new case."

Okay, they ran some benchmark tests which looks to have potentially rather embarrassed the THX certification process, but surely, to be ultimately thorough, they could have done the normal reviewing process as well, just to ensure that in a side-by-side comparison, the results were identical?

Although I would be surprised if Lexicon had changed the software, it is a fair question. What would also be interesting would be for the original reviewer to load the latest Oppo firmware onto the Lexicon amd the Oppo ( I am reasonably confident that would work) and repeat the comparison.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes it would be intresting to know if Lexicon or THX`s input led to any software changes and if any software improvements remainded proprietory to the Lexicon or were implemented on the Oppo as well. If Lexicon is in anyway substantial different to the Oppo I would of expected them to be shouting it from the rooftops by now as this must be a public relations disaster and they have been repeatedly asked for comment from websites reporting it.

THXs statement on the matter is

"THX worked directly with Oppo to improve video performance during the testing of the Lexicon player and the benefits made their way to the Oppo platform as well. The analog audio testing which has been questioned by your article's source is currently not a requirement for THX Blu-ray Players."

- Graham McKenna, THX Ltd.

 

[Anonymous]

hmtb:

So you're a troublemaker

or

a crusader for justice?

More like someone with too much time. Forums are a diversion, time killer. Its not like I would debate politics, AV discussions can get heated enough.

 

[Anonymous]

I suspect that if Lexicon had made ANY changes, either hardware or software, that they would have rushed straight out and said so, to avoid this bush fire getting out of control. For me, the silence speaks louder than any words. Similarly, if there was nothing to hide, the folks over at THX would have had no reason to withdraw info re. the Lexicon, nor would Lexicon have had to remove the THX certification reference.

 

[professorhat]

They did respond:

"We fully disclosed our findings to Lexicon prior to publishing this article and they still maintain their player has audio and video enhancements over the stock BDP-83."

If it's not in any hardware modifications, it therefore follows that it's a software modification, hence my post. So I'm not sure they're even aware of a "bush fire getting out of control" - is there one?

 

[Anonymous]

professorhat:
They did respond:

"We fully disclosed our findings to Lexicon prior to publishing this article and they still maintain their player has audio and video enhancements over the stock BDP-83."

If it's not in any hardware modifications, it therefore follows that it's a software modification, hence my post. So I'm not sure they're even aware of a "bush fire getting out of control" - is there one?

I noted that remark, but as it stands it's surely merely an assertion? They have so far offered nothing specific about anything they've done. If they've changed the software to any significant extent, why not say so? My understanding is that there is an incompatibility issue between Oppo's firmware upgrades and the Lexicon, but that could simply be the data identifier tag in the first place, and nothing whatsoever to do with the actual instruction protocols. Also, there may not even be that much difference, since according to another website they tried for 5 days to connect to Lexicon's servers to try an update, and simply couldn't.

 

[Anonymous]

professorhat:

They did respond:

"We fully disclosed our findings to Lexicon prior to publishing this article and they still maintain their player has audio and video enhancements over the stock BDP-83."

If it's not in any hardware modifications, it therefore follows that it's a software modification, hence my post. So I'm not sure they're even aware of a "bush fire getting out of control" - is there one?

Unfortunately for Lexicon stating they have enhanced the player without providing any details of exactly what they did, or how the players measure differently, is not going to be enough for many, or at least for me to take them at their word and change my mind. I want to know what they have done to justify the price difference.

 

[professorhat]

knightout:Unfortunately for Lexicon stating they have enhanced the player without providing any details of exactly what they did, or how the players measure differently, is not going to be enough for many, or at least for me to take them at their word

But at the beginning of this thread, you were willing to take the people that "reviewed" (or should I say dismantled) said bit of kit at their word and believe they've done absolutely nothing apart from take an Oppo player and put it in a Lexicon chassis. And defend that argument very vigourously, despite not actually having seen any of this for yourself.

Interesting.

 

[Andrew Everard]

So, we have people who've never seen the product indulging in speculation, and others going on hearsay suggesting what may or may not be proof based on what someone else has said about trying to do a software update that may or may not exist.

Not taking sides on all this, or anything - emphatically not taking sides, as I have no knowledge of the facts - but aren't we now in the territory of not so much a bush fire, as some frantic fanning by people who've heard a rumour that there might be a spark, even though they've not actually seen it themselves?