plastic penguin
Well-known member
"Really loving the experience. Tried some different speakers over the last couple a days and the results were most interesting".
Would you care to share this?
Would you care to share this?
Had to fetch my son from a campsite in Derbyshire. It would've been done already if it wasn't for that. He went hiking for the weekend and was supposed to return tomorrow. I'll do my best to describe the results soon.
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
insider9 said:Maybe Rick will have something else he can spare(pretty please Rick)
Hi insider9
As you’ve asked nicely then let’s see *smile*
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
MUSICRAFT said:insider9 said:
Maybe Rick will have something else he can spare
Hi insider9
As you’ve asked nicely then let’s see *smile*
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
The pretentiousness is vomit inducing
Andrewjvt said:MUSICRAFT said:insider9 said:
Maybe Rick will have something else he can spare
Hi insider9
As you’ve asked nicely then let’s see *smile*
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
The pretentiousness is vomit inducing
Why?
YouTube is a platform for manufacturers to have their products reviewed by tech bloggers.
Here, a dealer lends a product to a forumite who does a nice review, probably appreciated by quite a few and, in turn, gets a little credit and forum time in return.
Nothing has been sold. Nowt wrong with that imho.
drummerman said:Andrewjvt said:MUSICRAFT said:insider9 said:
Maybe Rick will have something else he can spare
Hi insider9
As you’ve asked nicely then let’s see *smile*
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
The pretentiousness is vomit inducing
Why?
YouTube is a platform for manufacturers to have their products reviewed by tech bloggers.
Here, a dealer lends a product to a forumite who does a nice review, probably appreciated by quite a few and, in turn, gets a little credit and forum time in return.
Nothing has been sold. Nowt wrong with that imho.
If I wanted any advice from you it would be where to buy women's clothing.
It's not what's being done but how it's being milked.
Seems you asked nicely my ass
Sickening
I appreciate you have your differences with Rick. But there's absolutely no need for that kind of remarks aimed at either Rick or Drummerman. I started the thread as though it would be interesting to share. Look how little is happening on the forum otherwise.
Would you prefer to just reply to threads along the lines I have "enter amount here" to spend what should I buy...
Am I grateful to Rick for the loan? Very much so. Would just about anyone else say no to an offer like this? Seriously doubt it. And once I'm in the situation where I have some observations that I want to share where else would I go other than a hifi forum? My wife doesn't really care to discuss it and my mates who are into hifi have been round already and have an opinion of their own.
As to milking... Rick isn't the only Leema dealer at the end of the day. And we all know as a general rule people go to their local dealers. Do you also criticise Nintronics for supplying gear to Ellisdj? I thought not.
I personally applaud Rick for this loan and should he as suggested have more gear I'd be more than happy to listen to it. And I will share my thoughts about this with everyone just like anyone else would. Wouldn't it be better if we all had more hands on experience with gear? Wouldn't it be better to discuss gear without making personal remarks?
Come on, you're a good guy. I know you can do better than this.
Would you prefer to just reply to threads along the lines I have "enter amount here" to spend what should I buy...
Am I grateful to Rick for the loan? Very much so. Would just about anyone else say no to an offer like this? Seriously doubt it. And once I'm in the situation where I have some observations that I want to share where else would I go other than a hifi forum? My wife doesn't really care to discuss it and my mates who are into hifi have been round already and have an opinion of their own.
As to milking... Rick isn't the only Leema dealer at the end of the day. And we all know as a general rule people go to their local dealers. Do you also criticise Nintronics for supplying gear to Ellisdj? I thought not.
I personally applaud Rick for this loan and should he as suggested have more gear I'd be more than happy to listen to it. And I will share my thoughts about this with everyone just like anyone else would. Wouldn't it be better if we all had more hands on experience with gear? Wouldn't it be better to discuss gear without making personal remarks?
Come on, you're a good guy. I know you can do better than this.
As already mentioned. I've sourced a couple of different pairs of speakers. Hifi Pig review in particular mentions Leema being difficult to pair with. I'll be honest it did take me a little while to get it working with my Red Rose.
So what else have I tried. First of all I wanted to try something with a more traditional tweeter (dome). Second of all I wanted to see how far I can push imagining so had to get a pair of standmounts.
First of I got a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MkII. I had massive expectations of these. Traditionally dynamic punchy sound of Dyns and soft dome tweeter should in theory match up quite well with Leema.
Floorstanding speakers that represent a 4 Ohm load however not sensitive at 86 dB (2.83 V/1 m). These are turn of the century model that retailed around £2,700 back then. More info here
I had them setup and measured on Thursday evening. And worked my DSP magic. To my surprise without DSP they were unlistentable. Upper mids were so forward that caused so much bite that whatever I've tried it just caused fatifue even though that treble output even way off axis was low. With DSP things improved. However to my further surprise and I do associate Dynaudio with punch they sounded unremarkable. A mate of mine who loaned them to me is on the lookout for an amp that will bring them to life so that was sort of a last call for these. Quick look on PFM shows that they do sound have "certain amoout of restraint about them" so my expectations were somewhat flawed. Well... I tried.
Next up were Elac 203.2...
So what else have I tried. First of all I wanted to try something with a more traditional tweeter (dome). Second of all I wanted to see how far I can push imagining so had to get a pair of standmounts.
First of I got a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.8 MkII. I had massive expectations of these. Traditionally dynamic punchy sound of Dyns and soft dome tweeter should in theory match up quite well with Leema.
Floorstanding speakers that represent a 4 Ohm load however not sensitive at 86 dB (2.83 V/1 m). These are turn of the century model that retailed around £2,700 back then. More info here
I had them setup and measured on Thursday evening. And worked my DSP magic. To my surprise without DSP they were unlistentable. Upper mids were so forward that caused so much bite that whatever I've tried it just caused fatifue even though that treble output even way off axis was low. With DSP things improved. However to my further surprise and I do associate Dynaudio with punch they sounded unremarkable. A mate of mine who loaned them to me is on the lookout for an amp that will bring them to life so that was sort of a last call for these. Quick look on PFM shows that they do sound have "certain amoout of restraint about them" so my expectations were somewhat flawed. Well... I tried.
Next up were Elac 203.2...
insider9 said:
Loaning you the amp great no problem with that.
Comment: seems you asked nicely: imo is milking above and beyond as making it appear that you don't agree these things privately.
As far as I'm aware nintronics don't post on here looking for glory when they lend Ellis gear but ask ellis I give him far more grief about power supplies than anyone else on here.
It's just me but staging comments like this are only impressing the author.
That's how I feel but keep up the good work I'm enjoying the reviews and effort your putting in and it's good
No problems with that - check all my previous comments.
I particularly like your measurements and welcome a digital transport bake off eagerly.
Now back on topic
Andrewjvt said:
I appreciate it.
I can assure you nothing has been agreed privately at this point of time, that also includes when Leema is being returned. Never mind another piece of gear coming my way (if so great).
Elac 203.2 are a two way small standmounts. Specs can be found here
They are mid naugties design that was under £1,000 however from what I read very well received. It's a two-way incorporating Elac Jet-tweeter and a 6 inch woofer. With same efficiency as Dyns 86dB and representing 4 Ohm load. Also back ported desing such as the Dynaudios. These were carefully placed on Atacama SE24 filled stands.
I have to admit I didn't expect much of these. Speakers of this size usually don't do it for me when it comes to dynamics and scale. As such I started listening without measurements and as such no DSP. Didn't expect bass to be unruly with speakers that size. But what happened surprised me.
The bass coming out of these was just so tight and tuneful. Not low granted and not in the same league as from floorstanders but for the size of the box Leema exert such an amount of control that I'd happily keep them as my second pair. Tonally they were a very good match perhaps treble was the weakest area but small amount of DSP, possibly warmer source or dare I say it cables *secret* would probably do enough to tame this. They still had enough bite and dynamic fervour but what they added over my big Red Rose was even more improved imaging. And that's with no DPS to further sharpen the image. Creating even bigger illusion.
What this has shown me was that indeed as mentioned in Hifi Pig Tucana is not straight forward amp to match. Which is a shame as not everyone will be happy to change their speakers just to have the Tucana.
They are mid naugties design that was under £1,000 however from what I read very well received. It's a two-way incorporating Elac Jet-tweeter and a 6 inch woofer. With same efficiency as Dyns 86dB and representing 4 Ohm load. Also back ported desing such as the Dynaudios. These were carefully placed on Atacama SE24 filled stands.
I have to admit I didn't expect much of these. Speakers of this size usually don't do it for me when it comes to dynamics and scale. As such I started listening without measurements and as such no DSP. Didn't expect bass to be unruly with speakers that size. But what happened surprised me.
The bass coming out of these was just so tight and tuneful. Not low granted and not in the same league as from floorstanders but for the size of the box Leema exert such an amount of control that I'd happily keep them as my second pair. Tonally they were a very good match perhaps treble was the weakest area but small amount of DSP, possibly warmer source or dare I say it cables *secret* would probably do enough to tame this. They still had enough bite and dynamic fervour but what they added over my big Red Rose was even more improved imaging. And that's with no DPS to further sharpen the image. Creating even bigger illusion.
What this has shown me was that indeed as mentioned in Hifi Pig Tucana is not straight forward amp to match. Which is a shame as not everyone will be happy to change their speakers just to have the Tucana.
jjbomber
Well-known member
insider9 said:
... though HiFi Pig also give a recommended badge to the Leema Xen. So you could just pair a Leema amp with Leema speakers. Game over. It couldn't be any easier. Award winning amp matching with award winning speakers from the same company.
There again, where's the fun in that .......
plastic penguin
Well-known member
Shame you can't dem a pair of PMC with the Tucana. I love my combination. It does everything you ask, hence why I'm so reluctant to change the speakers.
I'll ask around, PP and see if there's a pair I can have for a day or two.
I completely understand why you wouldn't change. Once you get a perfect match it would literally mean starting over and we all know how difficult this process can be.
Before I got my Red Rose I remember considering GB1i and FB1. There was even a pair of OB1 at one point that was selling for silly money.
Problem is I'm a big fan of ribbons. I know they have their downsides but there's something about how they sound I just can't get with anything else I've tried. Even these Elac with their own take on ribbons just give you that some special most domes don't.
I completely understand why you wouldn't change. Once you get a perfect match it would literally mean starting over and we all know how difficult this process can be.
Before I got my Red Rose I remember considering GB1i and FB1. There was even a pair of OB1 at one point that was selling for silly money.
Problem is I'm a big fan of ribbons. I know they have their downsides but there's something about how they sound I just can't get with anything else I've tried. Even these Elac with their own take on ribbons just give you that some special most domes don't.
insider9 said:
Can you describe the difference for your experience between ribbon and done tweeters?
But bear in mind that's not all domes and not all ribbons as there can be terrible ribbons and excellent domes.
Let's start from the bad. Ribbons have measurably worse distortion than domes. Vertical dispersion is also poor. With my speakers even more so as they're MTM (D'Apollito array) which further affect vertical dispersion. From experience they're also much more difficult to partner with both amps and sources as often reveal more. And then there's another reason why these aren't so popular. Generally produce smaller sweet spot. Then there's an issue with integration. They won't go as low as domes either. Generally you won't see an 8" or 7.5" with a ribbon. It's mostly around 5" ball park and usually not more than 7". But even then that's generally pushing it and would require better drivers.
So why am I such a big fan? That's in no particular order. First of all they improve imaging. It's usually more precise in speakers with ribbons. They have more extention and don't roll off as early. As they are able to reproduce frequencies far in excess of human hearing super tweeters are usually not necessary. Best part about ribbon sound is that they reproduce to my ears more natural timbre of instruments. And that'd not just cymbals. Cellos, trumpets, sax, double bass all sound richer as their harmonics are better reproduced. Ribbons can move faster than domes as have lower mass. Cymbals and horns just don't sound right to me on many domes. Usually sounding way too polite.
As you can see that's a lot of trade offs. But if you're used to sound of a live drum kit and as such cymbals not many domes will be able to satisfy you.
Interestingly enough a man who bought my Minidsp OpenDRC-DA8 told me he's a session musician and he also shares my love for ribbons. Reasons were exactly the same.
Let's start from the bad. Ribbons have measurably worse distortion than domes. Vertical dispersion is also poor. With my speakers even more so as they're MTM (D'Apollito array) which further affect vertical dispersion. From experience they're also much more difficult to partner with both amps and sources as often reveal more. And then there's another reason why these aren't so popular. Generally produce smaller sweet spot. Then there's an issue with integration. They won't go as low as domes either. Generally you won't see an 8" or 7.5" with a ribbon. It's mostly around 5" ball park and usually not more than 7". But even then that's generally pushing it and would require better drivers.
So why am I such a big fan? That's in no particular order. First of all they improve imaging. It's usually more precise in speakers with ribbons. They have more extention and don't roll off as early. As they are able to reproduce frequencies far in excess of human hearing super tweeters are usually not necessary. Best part about ribbon sound is that they reproduce to my ears more natural timbre of instruments. And that'd not just cymbals. Cellos, trumpets, sax, double bass all sound richer as their harmonics are better reproduced. Ribbons can move faster than domes as have lower mass. Cymbals and horns just don't sound right to me on many domes. Usually sounding way too polite.
As you can see that's a lot of trade offs. But if you're used to sound of a live drum kit and as such cymbals not many domes will be able to satisfy you.
Interestingly enough a man who bought my Minidsp OpenDRC-DA8 told me he's a session musician and he also shares my love for ribbons. Reasons were exactly the same.
Unfortunately no, sorry. There's not much information available on them at all. They're very rare speakers. Best guess is 8 Ohm nominal. I'm 99.9% sure on this. Not sure how low they dip though.CnoEvil said:
I've read the whole line was supposed to be suitable for valves and a mention of 93dB sensitivity. I've heard my former Red Rose Rosebuds driven by EAR amp and source and the combo indeed sounded spectacular.
I have no way to tell if that also applies to Classics. And experience with these speakers tells me it doesn't. Naim 5i-2 (50Wpc) struggled a lot. Densen B-110 (much better quality 60Wpc) was ok but sounded soft in bass. Hegel Rost at 75Wpc drives them sufficiently and in my opinion is a bare minimum when it comes to power.
I've just come across this lesser known review of the big Harbeths....but what you might find interesting, is the Near Field listening position in a small room (see photos further down the thread).
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25222-Harbeth-Monitor-40-2
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25222-Harbeth-Monitor-40-2
Here's one for you from the same gent
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15336-Near-Field-Listening-What-Speaker-Characteristics-Make-For-the-Best-Experience
Have a look at paragraph 5 that so well describes my speakers
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15336-Near-Field-Listening-What-Speaker-Characteristics-Make-For-the-Best-Experience
Have a look at paragraph 5 that so well describes my speakers
Worth pointing out that DSP I'm doing mainly focuses on impulse and phase response. That improves time alignment of drive units even further.insider9 said:Here's one for you from the same gent
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15336-Near-Field-Listening-...
Have a look at paragraph 5 that so well describes my speakers
And obviously the bass.
stereoman
Well-known member
insider9 said:
Great choice - one of the best albums ever - 46 & 2 is a genius show of drum skills. Great tune. Great album.
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
Macspur said:
Hi Mac
Esoteric F-05 *smile* At 32kg might need to hire a crane *biggrin*
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
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