Leema Tucana II Anniversary - initial impressions + measurements

[insider9]

Not read all of this thread but has anyone referred to the review in the latest edition of Hi Fi Pig?

http://hifipig.com/leema-acoustics-tucana-ii-anniversary-edition-integrated-amplifier/#more-40568

It gets an Outstanding Product badge and they don't award too many of these!

I've read it a couple of times it doesn't really say much about sound quality if I'm honest. It covers quite a bit though so I was going to link it to the review in case anyone wanted the more obvious questions answered.

 

[MajorFubar]

If I remember correctly that graph is for the mid/bass only. I seem to recall Ash using it to show how well behaved it was till an octave past the crossover point. Or I’m remembering wrong. *wacko*

Aha! Fair enough. I remember seeing it in a thread somewhere on the old AVI forum, but I couldn't remember the context.

 

[insider9]

It’s very interesting what you’re attempting, insider, but I’m not sure that you can necessarily attribute these slight changes to an amplifier having better control. You could just as easily look at damping factor/output impedance, but what you measure isn’t what you hear.

Maybe I’ve misread you, but these graphs are single sweeps aren’t they, not averages or multi point measurements? I’m assuming the speakers and mike are in unchanged positions throughout? What does it look like if moved forward or back a few cm? And are the measurements identical every day?

I think the reason speakers are tested anechoically is well established, but it can be replicated outdoors on a windless day, allegedly! Room averaged responses are used by Martin Colloms, whose book on High Performance Speakers I’ve recommended here before. It’s about £80 new but you can get an ex library copy for about twenty.

I’ll see if I can find something relevant to link here.

Thanks for book recommendation and links in your other reply. I'll be happy to give it a go once I'm finished reading "Master Handbook of Acoustics".

I hope I can clarify my thinking behind this for you a bit, Nopiano. I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way as it is a long post. I'm only trying to explain.

First of, it is the same point in space and results are repeatable as many times I would like, any time I want to do it. I'm using a tripod and have floor markings. Speakers are in the same position, with changes kept to minimum, biggest one being the amplifier. Point in space is accurate and I double check with a measuring tape for precision (distances to walls and floor and tweeters). How can I be sure you may ask? Hegel measurements were taken a week or so ago as not had it since Friday, I left it with a mate of mine in exchage for his DAC. Measurements for Leema were taken on the day posted. Yet there's hardly any difference between mids and highs. Should there be movement of mic position the differences would be significant. Here's a pic I took taking measurments.

Why not take an average of many measurements? If we're talking sinlge point and the result is repeatable than the average would be the same as a single measurement. Unless the measuring equipment is poor or there are other variables (which I do my best to eliminate). Why single point? It's around the listening position and I design DSP filters around these measurements.

Why not take multi-point measurements? A couple of reason... First, I don't have any need. It's a single purpose setup for one listener. Secondly, multipoint measurements are used to look at dispersion. I know due to desing of my speakers they have a wide horizontal dispersion and poor vertical dispersion. But dispersion shouldn't change with a different amp. And as I'm trying to see how speaker responds to the amp. Or in fact if they respond in any way differently at all. Not really trying to measure the speakers but amp/speaker interaction compare to another amp/speaker interaction. I don't have an oscilloscope to measure amplifiers but even if I did I'd still be interested to know how it affects what I hear. And what I hear can be measured acoustically. Also doing multi-point measurements in room would be unworkable (unless I had floor marking for every position permanently).

Why not measure outside? I would but at 42kg a speaker from first floor listening room is just not doable. Particularly as I measure everything I come in contact with (this includes USB cables, isolation, etc.). Just a hobby in a hobby.

So when you say "I’m not sure that you can necessarily attribute these slight changes to an amplifier having better control."

First of all looking at 1/6th octave smoothing change of 3dB-5dB is massive. Nothing slight about it. Increase treble by 3dB worse 5dB on your setup and it will be very bright. But fair enough what else can I attribute them to? Same room, same speakers in the same position, same room treatment in same positions, same postion of the mic, same cables, similar temperature and humidity. The main variable is the amp. How it interacts with the speakers and how speakers interact with the room. If my conclusions are wrong I'm more than happy to hold my hands up but what else do you think it could be? Now is it like you say the damping factor? Hegel claims damping of over 2000 on the Rost. But whatever it is can be attributed to amp as this is the bigest variable in this.

Hope that makes sense even if you don't agree with the premise

 

[nopiano]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, insider! You’re certainly being thorough, and I do see how you’re reckoning the different responses are attributable to the amp and nothing else. The reasoning is good, especially for not moving the speakers!

I’ve been reading Hi-Fi reviews from pretty much all over the world for about forty years now, so I guess I’d imagined I’d have seen something similar by now, if it was achievable or meaningful. I’m sorry if it seemed a bit begrudging as I’m actually full of admiration for what you’re attempting.

I had supposed that that degree of response variation was a weakness in your measurement system, or a variable other than something attributable to the Leema amp, but maybe you’re onto something? Ironically, the quantum of difference maybe makes me question the likelihood that any two amps could make that much difference. As you say, 3 to 5dB is highly significant and would be easily detectable by a listener. Maybe what you’re measuring is some room related reaction? By which I mean there is a slight difference attributable to the amp, but that’s exciting something in the room, or through the floor? I don’t really know, just guessing.

Anyway, thanks again for such a novel approach.

 

[insider9]

I admit it is a little wacky and not something I've seen anywhere else. Usually people who measure things have better facilities. I'm just trying to make the best use with limited resources and try and gain better understanding. I can only hope the thought process is sound and I'm not arriving at wrong conclusions

As to floor transfer I'm using isolation platforms that are rated up to 111lb they are 2" thick and spread the weight of speakers across 22"x18" surface area. Speakers are 92lb. Sure it doesn't completely isolate them but minimises that interaction. I've had a thread a while back that showed measurable difference of using these. Most interesting part was that the effects that were not directly related to frequency response had biggest impact on the sound. And I attributed these to improvements in group delay. But that's something completely different

Whatever amp I'll have over here next I'll be sure to measure it and overlay the results. It will be most interesting what happens.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I admit it is a little wacky and not something I've seen anywhere else. Usually people who measure things have better facilities. I'm just trying to make the best use with limited resources and try and gain better understanding. I can only hope the thought process is sound and I'm not arriving at wrong conclusions

As to floor transfer I'm using isolation platforms that are rated up to 111lb they are 2" thick and spread the weight of speakers across 22"x18" surface area. Speakers are 92lb. Sure it doesn't completely isolate them but minimises that interaction. I've had a thread a while back that showed measurable difference of using these. Most interesting part was that the effects that were not directly related to frequency response had biggest impact on the sound. And I attributed these to improvements in group delay. But that's something completely different

Whatever amp I'll have over here next I'll be sure to measure it and overlay the results. It will be most interesting what happens.

When are you going to start measurements on streaming transports v pc etc.

I'd love that one

 

[plastic penguin]

Pah! Everytime I read anything about hi-fi measurements or graphs a nasty rash comes out all over my speakers. *biggrin*

More seriously though, I think graphs are b######s. I can understand the validity in a laboratory situation (and those who've got nothing better to do), but in the real world of 'white noises' i.e family gabbering away while you're trying to listen to your music, vehicles hurtling past the window, the dog or cat licking it bits and pieces... it means a big fat ziltch.

Just enjoy whatever set-up you have. Enjoy the music.

 

[Macspur]

Pah! Everytime I read anything about hi-fi measurements or graphs a nasty rash comes out all over my speakers. *biggrin*

More seriously though, I think graphs are b######s. I can understand the validity in a laboratory situation (and those who've got nothing better to do), but in the real world of 'white noises' i.e family gabbering away while you're trying to listen to your music, vehicles hurtling past the window, the dog or cat licking it bits and pieces... it means a big fat ziltch.

Just enjoy whatever set-up you have. Enjoy the music.

+1, no disrespect meant

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[davidf]

...the dog or cat licking it bits and pieces...

That got me. I almost spat my tea out. I think it was because as soon as I read “the dog”, I knew instantly what was coming

 

[CnoEvil]

Personally, I admire the skill and knowledge of someone who can take measurements and then properly interpret them. If you have a technical background, I can see how this would add a whole new dimension to your system/hobby.

I, like many on here, just try something. I either like what it does (if it does anything), or I don't. If it's the latter and I think it's worth getting for the improvement it makes...then I buy it.

IMO. You have the right balance between "open mindedness" and scepticism.

 

[plastic penguin]

No disrespect but just because someone has knowledge and have measurements on a computer doesn't equate to hearing a difference between one graph and another.

My sister's ex-hubby used to, before he retired, design flight simulators. Could he fly a plane?

 

[plastic penguin]

...the dog or cat licking it bits and pieces...

That got me. I almost spat my tea out. I think it was because as soon as I read “the dog”, I knew instantly what was coming

Our cat, while digging its fur, sounds like a pig. Hearing loud snorting noises really f###s up your listening experience. *biggrin*

 

[insider9]

Much appreciated. Slightly out of breath as was chasing cats and dogs down the road for this new experiment. Couldn't find one happy to oblige. *biggrin*

I don't actually believe that you can measure everything neither do I believe that all that measures better will necessarily sound better.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that why does it have to be mutually exclusive. Why can't you both enjoy a piece of music via certain gear and in a spare moment take measurements? It baffles me but I accept its not for everyone.

 

[plastic penguin]

...the dog or cat licking it bits and pieces...

That got me. I almost spat my tea out. I think it was because as soon as I read “the dog”, I knew instantly what was coming

Perhaps you could adopt that idea when someone is demoing your kit: "Mr. Bloggs, would you mind if Fido came in the demo room? You can let me know if the amp sounds different when the mutt starts lapping around its privates". *biggrin*

 

[nopiano]

...the dog or cat licking it bits and pieces...

That got me. I almost spat my tea out. I think it was because as soon as I read “the dog”, I knew instantly what was coming

Perhaps you could adopt that idea when someone is demoing your kit: "Mr. Bloggs, would you mind if Fido came in the demo room? You can let me know if the amp sounds different when the mutt starts lapping around its privates". *biggrin*

Ha, ha, I recognised that too. Spoils the tension in an exciting TV programme too to hear that slurp, grunt, slurp sound!

 

[insider9]

No disrespect but just because someone has knowledge and have measurements on a computer doesn't equate to hearing a difference between one graph and another.

My sister's ex-hubby used to, before he retired, design flight simulators. Could he fly a plane? 

I very much agree with this statement. I take it you just disagree with what I wrote about the amp as it doesn't 100% match your experiences. Is that what it is? If so that's fine by me. I feel like you're being ultra critical with just about anything I post. I'm not sure where it's coming from. Care to elaborate, please.

Consider this. You're listening to a different amp, via different speaker in a different room, have different experiences and different gear prior to Tucana.

Someone swapping from say Primare A30.1 would say Tucana is lightning fast. Someone who had Naim amp just before that would say Tucana is slower. Person with a warm amp just prior would see Tucana as bright. Someone with a pair of either small floorstanders or standmounts will notice amazing imaging but a chap with large floorstanders will more likely notice bass quality and extension. Someone with already very good imaging will see an improvement but not a night and day difference.

Every single difference in directly preceding gear and every single trait that is "not to" or "very much to" listener taste will be exacerbated.

It's only natural that there would be differences how we perceive things. Have a look at my Hegel review to understand what's important for me when I listen. I bet it isn't what's important you which is fine. But it doesn't mean I don't hear a difference.

 

[plastic penguin]

No disrespect but just because someone has knowledge and have measurements on a computer doesn't equate to hearing a difference between one graph and another.

My sister's ex-hubby used to, before he retired, design flight simulators. Could he fly a plane?

I very much agree with this statement. I take it you just disagree with what I wrote about the amp as it doesn't 100% match your experiences. Is that what it is? If so that's fine by me. I feel like you're being ultra critical with just about anything I post. I'm not sure where it's coming from. Care to elaborate, please.

Consider this. You're listening to a different amp, via different speaker in a different room, have different experiences and different gear prior to Tucana.

Someone swapping from say Primare A30.1 would say Tucana is lightning fast. Someone who had Naim amp just before that would say Tucana is slower. Person with a warm amp just prior would see Tucana as bright. Someone with a pair of either small floorstanders or standmounts will notice amazing imaging but a chap with large floorstanders will more likely notice bass quality and extension. Someone with already very good imaging will see an improvement but not a night and day difference.

Every single difference in directly preceding gear and every single trait that is "not to" or "very much to" listener taste will be exacerbated.

It's only natural that there would be differences how we perceive things. Have a look at my Hegel review to understand what's important for me when I listen. I bet it isn't what's important you which is fine. But it doesn't mean I don't hear a difference.

No. I agree with a lot of your findings. However, speakers, room acoustics... and personal taste means it won't totally chime with my experience.

 

[plastic penguin]

...the dog or cat licking it bits and pieces...

That got me. I almost spat my tea out. I think it was because as soon as I read “the dog”, I knew instantly what was coming

Perhaps you could adopt that idea when someone is demoing your kit: "Mr. Bloggs, would you mind if Fido came in the demo room? You can let me know if the amp sounds different when the mutt starts lapping around its privates". *biggrin*

Ha, ha, I recognised that too. Spoils the tension in an exciting TV programme too to hear that slurp, grunt, slurp sound!

After reading this drivel, wonder if David, the next time he has a amp dem set-up, can keep a straight face?

My imagination is running riot: Thought of David dragging in a resentful Doberman to demonstration so the mutt can get stuck in. *ROFL*

 

[insider9]

No disrespect but just because someone has knowledge and have measurements on a computer doesn't equate to hearing a difference between one graph and another.

My sister's ex-hubby used to, before he retired, design flight simulators. Could he fly a plane? 

I very much agree with this statement. I take it you just disagree with what I wrote about the amp as it doesn't 100% match your experiences. Is that what it is? If so that's fine by me. I feel like you're being ultra critical with just about anything I post. I'm not sure where it's coming from. Care to elaborate, please.

Consider this. You're listening to a different amp, via different speaker in a different room, have different experiences and different gear prior to Tucana.

Someone swapping from say Primare A30.1 would say Tucana is lightning fast. Someone who had Naim amp just before that would say Tucana is slower. Person with a warm amp just prior would see Tucana as bright. Someone with a pair of either small floorstanders or standmounts will notice amazing imaging but a chap with large floorstanders will more likely notice bass quality and extension. Someone with already very good imaging will see an improvement but not a night and day difference.

Every single difference in directly preceding gear and every single trait that is "not to" or "very much to" listener taste will be exacerbated.

It's only natural that there would be differences how we perceive things. Have a look at my Hegel review to understand what's important for me when I listen. I bet it isn't what's important you which is fine. But it doesn't mean I don't hear a difference.

No. I agree with a lot of your findings. However, speakers, room acoustics... and personal taste means it won't totally chime with my experience.

Thanks PP. Sure, I understand.

 

[CnoEvil]

No disrespect but just because someone has knowledge and have measurements on a computer doesn't equate to hearing a difference between one graph and another.

My sister's ex-hubby used to, before he retired, design flight simulators. Could he fly a plane?

I didn't mean to say that at all. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I9 is someone who likes to understand what he is hearing, so he can maximize his room...and also tries to measure what he does hear.

 

[plastic penguin]

Totally get that. No issues with someone trying to understand...

My philosophy has always been: If it sounds right then it is... regardless of the paper specs.

I remember a few years ago you saying a MF3i is more impressive (in some respects) than my old Pulse. But I'm not a big MF fan, certainly not of their more affordable amps. Based on that one example alone, graphs and measurements are therefore rendered useless.

Have no issue with anyone looking at these measurements as long as they don't take them too literally.

 

[CnoEvil]

My philosophy has always been: If it sounds right then it is... regardless of the paper specs.

Mine too...just look at the quote under all my posts.

 

[plastic penguin]

Ultimately, it boils down to how a certain system sounds in your own environment. Then we [collective] hark back to the old chestnut of room size and acoustics. Something, as you well know, I've been bleating about for years.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

although for a short period of time Leema (it's not going back hopefully for a good while).

Hi insider9

Looks like i’ll be extending the loan docket *smile*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[insider9]

although for a short period of time Leema (it's not going back hopefully for a good while). 

Hi insider9

Looks like i’ll be extending the loan docket *smile*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Oh really, wow Rick that's amazing. Thanks a lot!

Really loving the experience. Tried some different speakers over the last couple a days and the results were most interesting.