KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[MarkJones83]

David,

I am taking on board your opinions, I just wonder if it's necessary for you to sound quite so aggressive - this is obviously a bug bear of yours

 

[the record spot]

You make a reasonable point, albeit a touch harsh IMO.

I guess I was just trying to say that if the OP's previous reference was a floorstanding speaker & then he moves to a stand mount he might feel like he has lost something. Not all bad & he might enjoy the trade off, but if he is anything like me I never got there.

I agree with you about the reading of reviews as opposed to a good demo & listening to the advice of an experienced dealer. But I still find the internet an invaluable tool for researching & learning, not a substitute just an addition.

So, answer me this.

You go into a dealer interested in upgrading your amp to the latest highly aclaimed model.

The dealer seta up an appropriate system,plays you said amplifier, then plays you a similarly priced but clearly superior amplifier from a different manufacturer.

What is your reaction?

This is the state of the game just now; bricks and mortar shops are getting fewer, but the smart buyer can do without the dealer if they need to. Barring speakers, most of my last few purchases have been bought blind and each has been bang on what I'd expected.

A Google search will usually link to product reviews online, then there's owner recommendations/reviews, some of which you need to take with a pinch of salt, but others can be very good. Cover enough and you'll have a pretty good idea of the product(s) you're interested in.

 

[Neuphonix]

Sounds to me like the issue is more one of stand mounts Vs floorstanders...

I was just about to say the same thing. It sounds to me like the OP may want some bigger speakers with more bass

This is primarily about expectation.

The hi-fi business is about hyping up product, much of which is mediocre but highly acclaimed. It is now very difficult for a knowledgable enthusiast/dealer to suggest that some highly regarded product or systems are actually not very good. In any case buyers are more likely to behave reviewers than they are dealers or perhaps even the evidence of their own ears.

No skin off my nose, I'm not in the business anymore so it is not my problem, but the hi fi industry is now so dumbed down that I am surprised anybody bothers anymore.

You make a reasonable point, albeit a touch harsh IMO.

I guess I was just trying to say that if the OP's previous reference was a floorstanding speaker & then he moves to a stand mount he might feel like he has lost something. Not all bad & he might enjoy the trade off, but if he is anything like me I never got there.

I agree with you about the reading of reviews as opposed to a good demo & listening to the advice of an experienced dealer. But I still find the internet an invaluable tool for researching & learning, not a substitute just an addition.

So, answer me this.

You go into a dealer interested in upgrading your amp to the latest highly aclaimed model.

The dealer seta up an appropriate system,plays you said amplifier, then plays you a similarly priced but clearly superior amplifier from a different manufacturer.

What is your reaction?

I'm not sure waht your point is, but I guess different people are going to react differently. Some may be open to a new product they hadn't heard of before, others not so. Certainly would agree that if someone had read a stack of online reviews (esp positive ones) that they might be bias towards said product, even if their ears had told them the other one sounded superior.

But bear in mind Dave, with-out the interweb thingy with all it's poor reviews, we the public wouldn't have stumbled across a wise and clearly enlightened being such as yourself to teach us the error of our ways!!!!

 

[BigH]

I don't trust dealers either you don't know what drives their recommendations (commissions?) and they come out with funny comments like my local dealer does not stock KEF speakers says they are boomy but stocks B&Ws which are much better, so all KEFs are boomy and B&Ws are not, I found that very odd.

 

[drummerman]

Pete, a friend of mine used to manage the Parkstone/Poole Branch of movement audio.

A real character and a musician himself, he refused to give his opinion on any of the brands he carried. He would look at you with a slightly bored look in his eyes and just say you needed to listen to it.

He was your honest dealer and to an extend, his successor, although slightly less characterful, is the same.

Not all dealers are the same.

regards

 

[phydeau]

Back to the thread, I also found the LS50's to be a turn-off. I had a demo at a dealer, hooked up to an arcam A19, and found them to be uninvolving, couldn't understand what the fuss was all about. So it might be the OP has them set up OK, but they are not for him. (Next up was the ATC SCM11's: fantastic)

 

[Tacty]

i think the main problem is: they must sound better, since they're 800, they're awashed with awards, etc...it looks like everybody have to find excuse or two for ls50, but no one want to admit maybe they're nothing special...

i also think how synergy is just like that: a way to find excuse(s) why a certain product is not worth its money or efforts to make it sounds "better"...

 

[bluedroog]

Pete, a friend of mine used to manage the Parkstone/Poole Branch of movement audio.

A real character and a musician himself, he refused to give his opinion on any of the brands he carried. He would look at you with a slightly bored look in his eyes and just say you needed to listen to it.

He was your honest dealer and to an extend, his successor, although slightly less characterful, is the same.

Not all dealers are the same.

regards

sounds like my old A-level Politics teacher, it has to be the best way. Any beginner in a field will often look to the 'teachers' opinion as correct or fact, when of course it is just another opinion.

 

[davedotco]

David,

I am taking on board your opinions, I just wonder if it's necessary for you to sound quite so aggressive - this is obviously a bug bear of yours

Sorry Mark, I did try to keep my replies to you, as a new enthusiast, sensible and polite but sometimes the message is a tough one to take and nobody likes to hear that they have blown a substantial amount of cash on something that is really not what they expect or want. I try and save my ire for the more experienced enthusiasts who post on here and really should know better.

I know you 'just want it to work' and I sympathise with that, but there are really only two ways of putting together a system that is going work well and give you exactly what you want.

Either you take your time and learn a little about how this equipment works, what makes it good (or not so good) and aquire some 'system building' skills that will allow you to select an appropriate system or at least put you on the road to achieving such a system or,

You find a competent dealer and let him take you through the basics and then show you the kind of options that are available to you for your current budget and outline how that system can be improved on, if that is your inclination.

If you are really interested in this hobby, (music and hi-fi) then asking your mates or people on fora like this is only going to be of limited use as the advice given regarding specific components is going to be contradictory and reflect their requirements, not yours.

I have refrained from making any specific recommendations as I am pretty sure that my choices of components would not give you what you want so I will repeat what I said above, find a good dealer and get him to demonstrate the kind of options that available to you.

Apologies for the lecture, I'm an ex dealer and tend to go on a bit, sorry......

 

[Neuphonix]

I don't trust dealers either you don't know what drives their recommendations (commissions?) and they come out with funny comments like my local dealer does not stock KEF speakers says they are boomy but stocks B&Ws which are much better, so all KEFs are boomy and B&Ws are not, I found that very odd.

I didn't mean to sound anti dealer, not at all. I've recently had a couple of great experiences with dealers rather than & would confidently recommend friends to them.

Personally I put a figure of aound 15-20% on a dealer's service, if he's friendly and not too pushy I'm happy to pay a fee for his expertise. But 25% or more & I'll certainly consider looking elsewhere, including online. Completely understand that everyone has to make money to exist, but some companies are having a hard time adjusting to the new paradigm, it's a two way street one can't exist without the other. You have to look out for your own interests & not just accept the first thing you hear, check out a few different shops & don't rush into any purchase. Get a good idea of prices before entering into any negotiations.

Dave's comments are generally on the mark & I appreciate his experience, must have had a bug in his bonnet about this one. Up past his bedtime?!

Lots of unfair remarks being made here, maybe i havent made myself clear. My friends Q1's sound better than my LS50's in terms of bass but they still have the clarity and thats what im after. No doubt people will now say that i should sell the LS50's and get some Q1's . I want my £800 speakers to sound the best they can be and clearly they can sound better than Q1's so why dont they?? I didnt mention before but the reason i started looking into hifi was after hearing a friends Klipsch RF-5's. They sounded brilliant and exactly what i was after but sadly i couldnt find any. I heard they were put into reproduction again for a short while but now discontinued again.

I come back again to the floorstander Vs stand mount thing. Why if you had heard the RF-5 would you have gone out and bought the LS-50? Quite apart from any discussion about better/worse it's hardly apples for apples? :?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

ATC SCM11's: fantastic

Hi phydeau

Good to hear Out of interest were the SCM11's the originals or the new curved SCM11 monitors please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[davedotco]

Pete, a friend of mine used to manage the Parkstone/Poole Branch of movement audio.

A real character and a musician himself, he refused to give his opinion on any of the brands he carried. He would look at you with a slightly bored look in his eyes and just say you needed to listen to it.

He was your honest dealer and to an extend, his successor, although slightly less characterful, is the same.

Not all dealers are the same.

regards

This is very much the point DM.

Most dealers will have their own views and most will express them when pushed, but the best will back up their opinions with constructive demonstrations and this is what matters.

As a dealer I tried hard not to comment on product that I did not stock but customers would often push hard often quoting 'chapter and verse' from recent reviews, sometimes it was difficult to say nothing. On my better days I would simple suggest that they go elswhere and listen to the latest product and them return so that I could play our alternative, sometimes worked, sometimes didn't.

Good dealers used to be plentiful but the big chains, the mass market box shifters have pretty much erradicated them from the budget end of the market so I understand the frustrations of anyone trying to get decent help at that end of the market. Some good dealers do still exist but don't expect them to stock the same products as the cut price chains, that would be commercial suicide.

 

[phydeau]

I kind of agree with you Tacty. I am wanting to challenge the assumptions that a) LS50's must sound good to everyone, and b) the OP must have something wrong with his set-up if he does not like them. Many like them. I don't. Perhaps the OP just doesn't like them.

Rick - I have the original style. Trying very hard to avoid listening to the new ones in case I get upgradeitis.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thanks for your response, Dave.

Yes speakers set to 'large' and bass output to 'speakers', havent got a sub. I'm a bit of a technophobe so i had a friend who's much more clued up than me to get out the manual and go into the settings. Will ask local dealer as advised. To be honest i really didnt imagine it would be this complicated. I have a reasonably good amp which ran the RF-5's very nicely, i bought the stands and cables etc and then asked friends who are into hifi to do the setup for me. Dont know how a previous poster could say i didnt follow or ask for advice.

I haven't read the responses yet since your reply here, so forgive me if things have moved forward.

One thing to bear in mind is that the Klipsch model you talk of has a sensitivity of 99dB - that's extremely high. The LS50's are 85dB, which is classed as low. Higher sensitivity speakers tend to sound far more exciting than lower sensitivity speakers. If you'd have owned the LS50's for the last God knows how long and then moved to the RF5's, you'd more than likely be having a similar conversation now regarding other aspects of the sound from them.

I know there's no source direct button, so just make sure that on the Yamaha's display that the word 'processor' or 'DSP' is showing. If so, there's something in the circuit that will be spoiling the sound.

 

[pedromarmot]

Just some considerations:

Distance to the back wall and or side walls?

Speaker cable? Im happy with atlas hyper 3.0 (no bass problems) or van damme 4.0 or 6.0

Main cables to amplifier? it can change a lot the bass percepcion on the speaker.

This is my experience with kef ls50, but for me the r100 works better.

 

[Frank Harvey]

An AV amp will work fine if it is powerful enough. The KEFs are bass light, as are all small stand mounters, if you look at the Stereophile response curve it is very obvious. I think a sub is essential with these if anything resembling deep bass is required.

Specs are one thing, listening to them quite another. As I said before, they won't reach as deep as larger speakers, but their overall balance is not bass light. The drivers and the cabinet don't help to exaggerate bass in the way that most speakers do. If anyone wants proof that these speakers aren't 'bass light', just try No Doubt's Hella Good. With this track, anyone listening blind would probably think they're listening to floorstanders.

 

[Frank Harvey]

i think the main problem is: they must sound better, since they're 800, they're awashed with awards, etc...it looks like everybody have to find excuse or two for ls50, but no one want to admit maybe they're nothing special...

Of course, like all speakers, personal preference cannot be ignored, but this doesn't mean a speaker "isn't anything special". I usually find that people who play down a particular speaker's capabilities or strengths don't really understand the technology behind them, or haven't done any research into why they do what they do.

 

[Goat]

It sounds like expectations were higher than the results that the speakers actually offer. It's also easy to get caught up with the verbose praise lavished on products in 5-star reviews. Those reviews can almost come across as sales pitches at times and very convincing as a result.

I'm in no way experienced in this game, but I also had the LS50's for a few days and hated them. For their size, bass was decent I thought, but not exactly agile or detailed. They were also very detailed. But I found them pretty poor elsewhere - the forward upper mid/lower treble was fatiguing/bright and the overall tonal balance was quite 'metallic' and soulless. There is something to be said perhaps for speakers sounding like they look. i.e. metal drivers, metal tweeters = metallic sound. To me, they are a clinical step too far from the R series, but that is just my opinion. Lots of others prefer the more refined, but unforgiving and forward LS50.

 

[CnoEvil]

It sounds like expectations were higher than the results that the speakers actually offer. It's also easy to get caught up with the verbose praise lavished on products in 5-star reviews. Those reviews can almost come across as sales pitches at times and very convincing as a result. I'm in no way experienced in this game, but I also had the LS50's for a few days and hated them. For their size, bass was decent I thought, but not exactly agile or detailed. They were also very detailed. But I found them pretty poor elsewhere - the forward upper mid/lower treble was fatiguing/bright and the overall tonal balance was quite 'metallic' and soulless. There is something to be said perhaps for speakers sounding like they look. i.e. metal drivers, metal tweeters = metallic sound. To me, they are a clinical step too far from the R series, but that is just my opinion. Lots of others prefer the more refined, but unforgiving and forward LS50.

I am very anti a bright clinical sound, which is why I like Valves, own a Class A amp and recommend brands like Pathos, Sugden, Electrocompaniet, Luxman and Icon Audio. On the speaker end, it's brands like SF, Harbeth and Spendor that get my vote.

Almost any speaker can be made sound rough given the right circumstances, including the LS50s. If it always sounded like that, I'd be giving it a very wide birth, given the way I like music presented.

If I'm coming across as a bit fanatical, it is certainly not my main intention, I'm just trying to make the point that it's easy to get a very wrong impression, from a cursory listen, due to the amount of variables at play.

 

[CnoEvil]

I kind of agree with you Tacty. I am wanting to challenge the assumptions that a) LS50's must sound good to everyone, and b) the OP must have something wrong with his set-up if he does not like them. Many like them. I don't. Perhaps the OP just doesn't like them.

This is of course a fair comment. All I'm trying to do, is question whether they have been given a reasonable chance to show what they can do.

It's a bit like buying a highly tuned sports car purely based on rave reviews, filling it with low octane petrol and only using it for the 2 mile round trip (on cobbled streets) to the shops. It won't be long before the car will be found totally unsuitable for this purpose.......on the other hand, feed it premium fuel, take it to a race track, and you will get a very different experience.

I don't recommend the LS50s because they have good reviews, but because I've spent many hours listening to them on a variety of amps (but always with a quality source).....and I've compared them to much more expensive ones in order to give a point of reference. I think the mistake people make, is that they think of the LS50s as a fairly budget speaker, rather than a reference mini monitor.

 

[namefail]

I usually find that people who play down a particular speaker's capabilities or strengths don't really understand the technology behind them, or haven't done any research into why they do what they do.

So it can’t be that it’s a poorly designed cash cow, the fault anyways lies with the newb. Come on!

 

[MajorFubar]

Can't you just send them back? Even if you buy stuff over the internet, distance-selling regulations give you a cooling-off period. It's the law. I think plain and simple you don't like them. It doesn't matter what anyone else says.

I'm also cringing at suggestions you try changing the mains cables to your amp etc. Come on guys this is a newby who fundamentally doesn't like the sound of his speakers and is looking for proper advice. Don't feed him ridiculous voodoo nonsense. It doesn't help him when he's already struggling to sort good advice from bull----. Even if you're a believer then you've still got to admit it won't make the night and day differences he's looking for.

 

[CnoEvil]

I usually find that people who play down a particular speaker's capabilities or strengths don't really understand the technology behind them, or haven't done any research into why they do what they do.

So it can’t be that it’s a poorly designed cash cow, the fault anyways lies with the newb. Come on!

I understand very well the point David is trying to make, but personally I find every brand makes claims about the brilliance of their innovative thinking, design and engineering, that it's hard to tell what is (or is not) going to make a real positive difference. So when push comes to shove, I ignore everything until I make my own assessment.

 

[namefail]

I usually find that people who play down a particular speaker's capabilities or strengths don't really understand the technology behind them, or haven't done any research into why they do what they do.

So it can’t be that it’s a poorly designed cash cow, the fault anyways lies with the newb. Come on!

I understand very well the point David is trying to make, but personally I find every brand makes claims about the brilliance of their innovative thinking, design and engineering, that it's hard to tell what is (or is not) going to make a real positive difference. So when push comes to shove, I ignore everything until I make my own assessment.

And that’s why chemical chance gave not just one but two ears, to make up for only having one brain.

 

[pmconcierge]

Don't worry about what some of these guys say. Like they have never made a mistake! First thing to do is find the best person you know or your friends know to have a fiddle with your system. It could just be one hidden setting. I doubt it's this but if u r using an av amp, what is your bass crossover point? Can you still return the kefs? If so I would do so and start again! If not I would take the kefs anywhere that has them in their demo room and check them against each other. The dealer shouldn't mind as if there is nothing wrong with them you are probably going to have to bite the bullet and buy a new amp. The new roksan k2 bt looks right up your street and has built in Bluetooth. And can be used to power the fronts in an av system too. If it performs better than the original k2 which it should, and is more powerful and with Bluetooth you should be happy. Worst case scenario- a grand on room conditioning and an amp is going to solve the problem. :cheer: