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Vladimir said:
Infact, I tried both ways. Sub as suplement to the main speakers and as a replacement for low frequencies (90 hz 24dB per octave).
I can try again putting full signal to LS50 and then giving less sthan 60 Hz. (24dB per octave) to Sub. And then see what REW looks like and more importantly if I can HEAR the difference in either calrity (lack of muddiness) or sound uniformity. Last time I did not. But now I have Sub better integrated with the mains.
One strange phenomena: At low Sub gain, I see a few FR bumps in REW between 200 and 60 Hz while the FR becomes smoother at high Sub gains. May be something to do with the way Sub amp works.
shkumar4963 said:
From 300Hz and up the loudspeaker controls the room. Bellow 300Hz the room controls the loudspeaker. You can never get perfect result. Just get what sounds good to you, which is a bit more added low bass extension to the LS50.
Vladimir said:
Yep!! This looks about right. Of course these measurements are in open air and at short distance so we don't see any room modes.
Is there an easy way to post the REW graphs that I am seeing?
Vladimir said:
I agree and I have now set it up for the most smooth REW curve and the best listening sound. Incidently that is at sub Xover at pre amp at 90 Hz, 24 dB per octave, Sub gain at 50%, Sub Phase at 180 and sub LP filter disabled..
Just trying to see if I am missing something. Because, even the best Sub setup, there seems to be no difference I can hear between with sub and without sub and only LS50s (but with low frequencies boosted using Bass control).
@ Vladimir. Just tested your track. First it is a great track. I better move to better recordings and Flac. Spoitify is partly to blame for my low freq. muddiness. Having said that here are my observations:
1. Both LS50s with bass bosted and Sub provide great sound. Both have a bit better clarity. but the sub has better oomph than LS50s when the base drum hits. Seems like you can feel it on my chest but not when LS50s are playing alone.
2. The difference though is not big. You have to pay attention to the oomph before you sense it.
Using REW PEQ with Foobar to get a flatter FR curve, does not improve the sound quality. So a non smooth FR below 100 hz sounds about the same as a smoothed FR using PEQ and Foobar.
Thanks Vladimir. Wish I could post the REW curves here.
1. Both LS50s with bass bosted and Sub provide great sound. Both have a bit better clarity. but the sub has better oomph than LS50s when the base drum hits. Seems like you can feel it on my chest but not when LS50s are playing alone.
2. The difference though is not big. You have to pay attention to the oomph before you sense it.
Using REW PEQ with Foobar to get a flatter FR curve, does not improve the sound quality. So a non smooth FR below 100 hz sounds about the same as a smoothed FR using PEQ and Foobar.
Thanks Vladimir. Wish I could post the REW curves here.
shkumar4963 said:
To post images here you need to use an external image hosting. Try www.imgur.com. Just post us the upload links here and we can see the photos.
shkumar4963 said:
It shouldn't be big. It should be seamless, smooth and unoticable transition. The sub should be audible only on really deep bass tracks, not on everything or nothing. If you think you got it roughly right, next take your time and look for the sweetspot. Use good lossless recordings with no loudness compression, but with deep bass.
Here is a track that has the double bass peak at 60Hz and drops 6dB by 30Hz.
Jota180
Well-known member
spiny norman said:
In this game there is, your own! Basically if you say you prefer the sound of something over something else, who can argue with that? What someone else thinks is meaningless because he didn't use your ears in your room with your equipment.
[/quote]
It shouldn't be big. It should be seamless, smooth and unoticable transition. The sub should be audible only on really deep bass tracks, not on everything or nothing. If you think you got it roughly right, next take your time and look for the sweetspot. Use good lossless recordings with no loudness compression, but with deep bass.
Here is a track that has the double bass peak at 60Hz and drops 6dB by 30Hz.
[/quote]
I probably did not explain properly. I do hear the bass clearly and fully in both set ups (LS50 alone vs. LS50+sub) and roughly at the same volume and intensity. And the difference between bass with LS50 alone compared with bass with LS50 + sub is not big. The only difference is the weight you feel in your chest when LS50 +Sub is playing. And this weight (I call it oomph) is not that noticeable. You have to focus on it to hear this oomph in LS50+ Sub setup compared with LS50 alone.
It shouldn't be big. It should be seamless, smooth and unoticable transition. The sub should be audible only on really deep bass tracks, not on everything or nothing. If you think you got it roughly right, next take your time and look for the sweetspot. Use good lossless recordings with no loudness compression, but with deep bass.
Here is a track that has the double bass peak at 60Hz and drops 6dB by 30Hz.
[/quote]
I probably did not explain properly. I do hear the bass clearly and fully in both set ups (LS50 alone vs. LS50+sub) and roughly at the same volume and intensity. And the difference between bass with LS50 alone compared with bass with LS50 + sub is not big. The only difference is the weight you feel in your chest when LS50 +Sub is playing. And this weight (I call it oomph) is not that noticeable. You have to focus on it to hear this oomph in LS50+ Sub setup compared with LS50 alone.
Vladimir said:
Grill is removed and Sub is clearly playing and loud. Remember it is crossed over at 90 Hz.
It shouldn't be big. It should be seamless, smooth and unoticable transition. The sub should be audible only on really deep bass tracks, not on everything or nothing. If you think you got it roughly right, next take your time and look for the sweetspot. Use good lossless recordings with no loudness compression, but with deep bass.
Here is a track that has the double bass peak at 60Hz and drops 6dB by 30Hz.
[/quote]
I probably did not explain properly. I do hear the bass clearly and fully in both set ups (LS50 alone vs. LS50+sub) and roughly at the same volume and intensity. And the difference between bass with LS50 alone compared with bass with LS50 + sub is not big. The only difference is the weight you feel in your chest when LS50 +Sub is playing. And this weight (I call it oomph) is not that noticeable. You have to focus on it to hear this oomph in LS50+ Sub setup compared with LS50 alone.
[/quote]
How do I play .ape format.? Foobar does not play it.
Vladimir said:
No I would not call them muddy. But muddy is a relative term. They are definiltely not as clear as they imagine them to be if thye were playing live few feet from me. I have to hear some higher end gear to see if I can get any cleaner bass than my current setup gives.
But clearly your tracks were a lot less muddier than my tracks. Probably because of better recording and lossless format.
Vladimir said:
Got it. By the way this is my favorite song...
Also send me a message on shkumar4963 at gmail and I will call you.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
So here is the update. I got the sub and integrated it with my main speakers LS50s.
I also used REW to match the levels, crossover freq. and phase between the two.
While REW shows better low freq. coverage down to 30 or even 25 hz with the sub, I was surprised that with almost all my music, the difference in sound quality between with and without sub is very minimal. With multiple AB tests, it was hard for me to tell when sub was handling freq. below 90 hz or LS50s were handling those frequencies.
I will post the frequency response curves for both soon but this just goes on to show the excellent design in LS50s and its low freq. capabilities in a room.
I also used REW to match the levels, crossover freq. and phase between the two.
While REW shows better low freq. coverage down to 30 or even 25 hz with the sub, I was surprised that with almost all my music, the difference in sound quality between with and without sub is very minimal. With multiple AB tests, it was hard for me to tell when sub was handling freq. below 90 hz or LS50s were handling those frequencies.
I will post the frequency response curves for both soon but this just goes on to show the excellent design in LS50s and its low freq. capabilities in a room.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
A sub will never actually improve sound quality - it can ease the load on the main speakers helping them to sound a little clearer, but the signal itself is still the same quality.
Whilst their bass may be a little limited with regards to ultimate depth, those who have listened to the LS50s will know that the bass they do have is very well balanced with plenty of presence. If a sub is added to the LS50s that is of similar quality that doesn't draw any attention to itself (built well, low distortion), and care is taken during setup, they should blend extremely well, and you'll be hard pushed to hear wither you're listening to a floorstander or sub/bookshelf speaker set up.
Can you remind of your setup?
Whilst their bass may be a little limited with regards to ultimate depth, those who have listened to the LS50s will know that the bass they do have is very well balanced with plenty of presence. If a sub is added to the LS50s that is of similar quality that doesn't draw any attention to itself (built well, low distortion), and care is taken during setup, they should blend extremely well, and you'll be hard pushed to hear wither you're listening to a floorstander or sub/bookshelf speaker set up.
Can you remind of your setup?
Now that I have played around with and decided on the use of sub with LS50S, I would like to start a discussion if getting rid of room modes by a DRC will help the sound quality and by how much.
Specifically I would like to get your opinion if IIR or FIR is the best way to suppress room modes.
What is the difference between the two and practically what makes most significant improvement in perceived sound quality. I have REW and have recently downloaded Mathaudio.
I am also open to buying additional hardware and software to try out different tools and see what produces the most improvement.
Specifically I would like to get your opinion if IIR or FIR is the best way to suppress room modes.
What is the difference between the two and practically what makes most significant improvement in perceived sound quality. I have REW and have recently downloaded Mathaudio.
I am also open to buying additional hardware and software to try out different tools and see what produces the most improvement.
David@FrankHarvey said:
I agree with you on the quality of bass in ls50. But I do not hear any difference in the clarity of sound with or without the sub. I was hoping that I would but could not hear it.
I was was also hoping that I would be able to hear better low freq coverage that the sub provides. I can clearly see in the REW plots better low freq coverage but again can not hear it.
My set up is CD or Spotify with Apple play, Yamaha RXV800 as preamp, sv12nsd sub, para sound amp and ls50s. Sub is used as afill-in with cover at about 50 hz.
Esra
Well-known member
Use a second subwoofer and place it somewhere else in the room.That will be the best result you will get at the end of the story if you are sure your LS 50 reach really down to useable 50Hz.Try also around 80Hz for crossover.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Don't forget that not all music has much going on under 50Hz - 70s rock for example, may sound clean and clear (sometimes) but bass is usually pretty scarce in general. A track like No Doubt's Hella Good shows what sort of kick ass bass the LS50s do have, and if you want notes you just won't be able to hear, try Modeselektor's Evil Twin. For sub 50Hz, there's a fair amount of electronica out there that will fit the bill to allow you to test with/without a sub. I hear various tracks where there's little bass where I know there should be a nice deep note, but there's no way on earth a speaker the size of an LS50 is going to be able to reproduce it.
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