KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[Q5]

I have to say that the LS 50's have surpassed my expectations, hooked up to my new Arcam FMJ A49 they really do sound clear and precise.

Only had this set up a few weeks so still trying music and positioning of speakers.

 

[CnoEvil]

Welcome Josh.  I have had these speakers for close to a year now.  One speaker developed a minor crack in it but KEF replaced that driver with no questions asked.  So I am good.  Yes, they are incredible speakers.  I am running them with Parasound Amp. (A/B 100 W).  But in some songs with a lot of low frequencies (less than 55 Hz or so), it shows that something is missing.  So I am trying to get a sub for it.  I have tried a low end and a medium end ($899) Sunfire sub but that just resulted in non-transparent muddy sound.  Seems like lack of low frequencies gives it an extra sense of transparency and clarity.  Any suggestions?

Also they seem to get muddled in any songs that has a large band like Rock Music.  The transparency and clarity that they are famous for just are not there.  So I feel that they are best for jazz music and vocals.  What do you think?  Do you see the same behavior with complex music with a lot of intruments.

 

I don't know how they fit your budget, but I like Paradigm Seismic 110 and Velodyne SPL800 Ultra.

If the LS50s sound muddled, it could be coming from Amp/Source/Stands/Room/Positioning.

 

[Frank Harvey]

There will always be limitations at what is possible with a two-way loudspeaker (which a three-way would solve), but as Cno says, your issues could be coming from elsewhere. They're certainly not coming from the cabinet, and as long as you stay within the comfortable working parameters of the drivers, you will only be listing to the drivers and the signal they're being fed.

 

[shkumar4963]

It seems that in my current setup they are most transparent with Jazz music and any other music that has a limited number o (upto 5) instuments. Like "The Best of Eva Cassidy". For rock music they are not that transparent. I am not trying to fix this proble. I am happy with what thye have. Just wanted to see if others see the same issue. I may try a different amp sometime to see if that may improve the situation somewhat.

For music with deep low end, I am trying to incorporate a sub. So far my efforts have not improved the situation any. I do get low frequencies but at the cost of clarity. Wanted to know if others experience the same thing.

I will also try the sub suggestions that others have made.

Thanks. Keep your suggestions and experiences coming.

 

[hybridauth_google_112370865474665644907]

Wow, so I started reading from the very first post only a couple nights ago.

I've finally gotten to the latest post but I never found out what happened with Mark Jones!?

I had the LS50's with a Peachtree 125SE on Q Acoustics Concept 20 Stands with Analysis Plus Oval 9 Black Mesh speaker cables and SVS SB-2000 subs. Super system.

I then had a 5.2 LS50 setup with Pioneer LX88 AVR. Also great!

I'm very happy with my current system but I would recommend my old LS50/Peachtree system to anyone for auditioning... Sometimes I regret letting go of that old system!

This thread has been a very entertaining read though

 

[Frank Harvey]

I find with my current system that they are as transparent as the source material allows them to be, regardless of music genre.

 

[shkumar4963]

I did some more testing. It seems that for Music that has several instruments producing low frequencies, my system is less likely to resolve them as well as it resolves instrument with mid or higher frequencies. The cause may be because this speaker is not designed for lower than 80 (though they produce up to 50 hz ) and require a sub. Or it may be that my ears are not able to resolve different instruments at lower octaves.

Would love to hear others experience.

 

[Frank Harvey]

shkumar - what is the rest of your system? Room size? Normal listening volume on the amp?

 

[shkumar4963]

I have Yamaha RXV-800 that am using as preamp. Most of the time I use it while by passing its digital processor. It is connected to a Parasound A/AB power amp (80 watt each channel) HCA-750. That is connectec with LS50. Room is 15 ft by 25 ft. But lustening position is about 6 - 8 ft from the speakers on one side of the room.

My aim is not to JUST improve my sound quality but to UNDERSTAND why my system sound the way it does and THEN imporve the audio quality.

Currently, the vocals are to die for. High frequencies are great. Low frequencies are also adequate probably most of my jazz CDs don't have that much low frequencies below what LS50 can handle. Bass, whatever is there, seems to be very clear and articulate. You can alsomost "see" the strings on the base guitar vibrating back and forth through the clarity of sound.

BUT, It seems that when there are several low octave instruments playing at the same time, it is hard to distinguish between them. I am hoping that a sub may improve that.

Have you experence the same with your shop's LS50. WHY does it happen? WHAT is going on? Is it a problem of amplifier not having enough power at low end? or is it because LS50 is incapable of resolving low frequencies well due to size of its speaker cone? In that case a sub might help.

Would a better amplifier or a good sub will imporv that? If an amplifier - which one? if a sub -which one? I am considering one SVS SB12-NSD sub (12 inch sealed sub with 400W RMS amp) .

Open to learning from other's experience.

 

[shkumar4963]

And yes, Moderate listening volume

 

[Esra]

Trying to keep the thread alife?Wow >1200 post and still no progress.

To sum up: It is all about synergy like with all other speakers too.Right amp and right room with right positioning.Still amazed by these little gems and enjoy them since three years without need for a subwoofer the most time.

@shkumar

Using the AVR as a preamp you play your LS50 way under their possibilities.It might be still enjoyable if you don't know better.If you want to stick to your AVR then you should try and play with room correction and eq adjusting to your taste.I am sure it will sound better than just plain pre-out mode without signal processing.

Bass and treble usually get adjusted for bang boom fizz experience with AVR in automatic mode which is nice for movies but not critical music listening.So there is need to adjust manually for music usually in eq. settings to get a more balanced sound.So turn full range speakers on in your AVR and do auto adjust at your seating position.I guess there are few modes to choose from.Do it with all possible options and store them in preset positions.Now you can find out which setting is your favourite.Copy this setting to a preset position you dislike at all in order to have a backup.Now it is time to play with eq.If your problem is a muddy,boomy and low resolution bass set bass in eq to minimum and start increasing to a level you like.Maybe there is need to readjust the middle and treble band after that in order to balance out the sound.Compare sound with plain pre out with just eq off and all off. If you can not find a sound to your like that way most likely your AVR won't cut it as a pre-amp if you are sure your amp is up to deliver the current.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I suppose it is a case of looking exactly what the system is doing. Your source (whatever that may be) is providing the basis for what you can possibly get at the end of the chain. Compromises here aren't going to be made up anywhere else. This will feed the pre-amp, which has to pass on the signal without adding anything to it (rare), or decoded from digital to analogue, depending on your system. The power amplifier or power section is then amplifying the signal it receives - any tiny negatives are going to be amplified. Then at the end of it, your speakers are going to try and make the best of what they have been given, good or bad, or anywhere inbetween. Better quality power amplifiers control the speakers better, better quality pre-amplifiers and DACs pass on a higher quality signal.

As Esra has mentioned, I would finger the weak point as being the AV receiver - they're good, and many AV receivers have greatly improved over the years, but they can still struggle to match a high quality, two channel pre-amplifier. I can't say I'm hearing my LS50s struggle, but then I suppose it depends on the type of music you listen to, and there's only so much the mid/bass driver of the LS50s are going to be able to do.

 

[Vladimir]

It seems that in my current setup they are most transparent with Jazz music and any other music that has a limited number o (upto 5) instuments. Like "The Best of Eva Cassidy". For rock music they are not that transparent. I am not trying to fix this proble. I am happy with what thye have. Just wanted to see if others see the same issue. I may try a different amp sometime to see if that may improve the situation somewhat.

For music with deep low end, I am trying to incorporate a sub. So far my efforts have not improved the situation any. I do get low frequencies but at the cost of clarity. Wanted to know if others experience the same thing.

I will also try the sub suggestions that others have made.

Thanks. Keep your suggestions and experiences coming.

That one is really awesome.

 

[shkumar4963]

What do you mean?

 

[shkumar4963]

So here is the plan for me. First try a sub and see if that provide the clarity and transparency at the low end.

If that does not work. Return it and try better pre amps to see if they help. If that does not work just sit back and enjoy what LS50 produce and there is plenty here to enjoy.

On a side note, I would like tiger if others experience the same lack of clarity at low octaves.

 

[Vladimir]

What do you mean?

The "The Best of Eva Cassidy" album you mentioned. It's an old favorite of mine.

 

[spiny norman]

Interesting to see from the latest issue of Stereophile, which features them on the cover, that the Technics SB-C700 speakers are said to outperform the KEFs in several significant ways. Didn't the Technics speakers get two stars from one of the British magazines? ;-)

 

[davedotco]

So here is the plan for me. First try a sub and see if that provide the clarity and transparency at the low end.

If that does not work. Return it and try better pre amps to see if they help. If that does not work just sit back and enjoy what LS50 produce and there is plenty here to enjoy.

On a side note, I would like tiger if others experience the same lack of clarity at low octaves.

If your bass is not resolving sufficient clarity then, generally, the last thing you need is more bass. If you are determined to try this then make sure that you filter out anything below 80-100hz that is currently feeding your LS50s, hopefully this will remove most of your bass issues, leaving the sub to fill in the bottom end starting with a blank canvas.

This would not be my approach though I have used this techique with some success in setups where the bass is overloading, not sure how it will work in your setup.

Of course the real answer is a serious amplifier and very careful setup, the first is expensive and the second can be difficult, given domestic restraints.

I mentioned in another thread how, when not properly matched and set up, the LS50s can be very frustrating, giving more than a glimpse of brilliance one minute only to let you down badly the next, unliveable for me. (I have experience of similar situations.)

 

[Vladimir]

My long-term reference small speaker, the KEF LS50, presents a fuller, sweeter and softer sound balance; the SB-C700 is "faster" and clearer. Bass definition is firmer, treble is more distinct, there's more sparkle. The LS50 shrinks the music's dynamic contrasts; it's a less lively-sounding speaker. I still love the LS50 for its romantic glow, but the SB-C700 wins for sheer transparency and impact. Rosanne Cash's vocal and guitar on her "10 Song Demo" CD sounded a touch more naturally sweet over the LS50, but the SB-C700 wasn't far off the mark.

by Steve Guttenberg

... lack of detail resolution and dynamic punch; lean tonal balance; cluttered and compressed soundstaging; poor rhythmic drive

by WHF

I think what WHF is saying is that at that high price point there are speaker who brutally annihilate the Technics (ATCs were mentioned).

 

[spiny norman]

I think what WHF is saying is that at that high price point there are speaker who brutally annihilate the Technics (ATCs were mentioned).

The Stereophile review sounds conclusive cf the KEFs:

'Compared to the Technics SB-C700, the KEF LS-50 sounds noticeably slower and a tiny bit less transparent. The SB-C700 was more dynamic, with more slam and startle factor, and was lighter on its feet. The Technics went lower and presented a wider spectrum of bass detail than the KEF, as well as more clean air between singers and their mikes.'

 

[davedotco]

Are we really reduced to quoting reviewers comments at each other now?

The pair of you are sounding like the plonkers I used to get in my shop, they knew every review, word perfect. Still did not have a clue...!

Come on, you can both do better than this.

 

[Vladimir]

I'm merely helping shkumar in keeping this 2013 thread going.

 

[shkumar4963]

On a serious note, I am thinking of starting with a clean slate to evaluate each component in my audio chain and start upgrading. I now have REW sound measurement system so that may be able to help a little. This may identify the problem better than me describing that the bass is muddy whatever that means.

so let's get started. My purpose will not be to merely identify what could be improved because everything can be improved but to identify the biggest bang for the buck component in sound improvement. So help me guys here if you can.

What tests can I do to identify the stage that needs to improve first. I will do the test and let you know what I found.

1. Source: Spotify MP3 320 Kbps digitally PCM fed to AVR Yamaha. or CD player fed digitally to AVR

2. How to test if AVR is working ok? I am using its DAC. And it is set with all DSP and treble and bass disabled.

3. How to test if Parasound 750 HCA is not a problem?

4. Interconnections: Monoprice premium cables

5. How to test IF LS50 are working ok?

6. How to test is subwoofer SVS SB-12 NSD is not the problem?

7. How to test if room modes are it playing havoc? Would room conditioning be the first thing to spend on? How to test for that?

Let me know your thoughts on how to test one stage or all stages. Whatever you can share will be greatly appreciated.

May be there is a link someone can share that has all ththese tests described. Sort of audio diagnostic checklist.

 

[shkumar4963]

Thanks

 

[Frank Harvey]

On a serious note, I am thinking of starting with a clean slate to evaluate each component in my audio chain and start upgrading. I now have REW sound measurement system so that may be able to help a little. This may identify the problem better than me describing that the bass is muddy whatever that means.

so let's get started. My purpose will not be to merely identify what could be improved because everything can be improved but to identify the biggest bang for the buck component in sound improvement. So help me guys here if you can.

What tests can I do to identify the stage that needs to improve first. I will do the test and let you know what I found.

1. Source: Spotify MP3 320 Kbps digitally PCM fed to AVR Yamaha. or CD player fed digitally to AVR

2. How to test if AVR is working ok? I am using its DAC. And it is set with all DSP and treble and bass disabled.

3. How to test if Parasound 750 HCA is not a problem?

4. Interconnections: Monoprice premium cables

5. How to test IF LS50 are working ok?

6. How to test is subwoofer SVS SB-12 NSD is not the problem?

7. How to test if room modes are it playing havoc? Would room conditioning be the first thing to spend on? How to test for that?

Let me know your thoughts on how to test one stage or all stages. Whatever you can share will be greatly appreciated.

May be there is a link someone can share that has all ththese tests described. Sort of audio diagnostic checklist.

Personally, I'd start with feeding a full fat digital signal into your system, from a CD player or some such source, using music you know well. Assess each link in the chain with an uncompressed signal, otherwise you could be wasting your time, or spending more time trying to assess than you need to.

Personally, I've never really been keen on the quality of Spotify through revealing systems.