KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[Frank Harvey]

Subs can differ just as much as loudspeakers, but that's for another thread.

 

[shkumar4963]

So while small speakers can not compete with larger ones in sound quality...

Yes they can.

And then what about Stereophile ranking them as Class A speakers

They get what they're about, and appreciate what they do.

WHAT?????

Please restate....

 

[shkumar4963]

Why do you consider small speakers to be better at imaging?

Far less cabinet coloration from a well built standmount when compared to an equivalently priced floorstander. Anyone with an amplifier that has tone controls, slowly turn the bass up - you'll notice the mid and high frequencies start to lose definition ans become muted, that is the sort of effect too much bass has on the other drivers in a big floorstander - unless the floorstander has had enough budget spent on it to counteract these sorts of issues. One example of that is the Blades - nicely balanced bass, and plenty of it, but never affecting the other frequencies.

I personally would take the LS50s over the R500s. Yes, that's a personal preference, not a technical one, and certainly not one based on SPL. I like what they do, and for me, they have more in common with the Reference range than the R Series.

I may agree with you. I auditioned them with LS50 and I thought good and bad about both. Having said that if they were the same price I would have tried to convince my wife to buy the bigger one. But to my ears they both had good and bad points.

Ls50 when properly positioned and with best recorded music (anna caram) were heavenly .

 

[Covenanter]

I'll make no bones about it, I like Kef speakers. I've had 4 sets over the years and have loved them all. Of those mentioned recently on this thread I would say:

- Q500 - great for classical music, very analytical and precise

- R500 - lovely speakers for all types of music, very musical

- R700 - huge sound, am in love with them, big speakers for a big room

- LS50 - very clever but for me somewhat artificial

Chris

 

[Vladimir]

I am told that we are not very sensitive to sspeaker quality and distortion below 50 hz. In fact I auditioned exoensive and cheap sub with b&w 865s2 and could not hear any difference. In fact the dealer himself said that other than volume it is hard to tell the difference when cross over frequency is at 59 hz or lower.

Maybe with complex musical program or acoustic guitar plucking. But not so sure that applies when you play well miked and recorded concert piano (27Hz) or double bass (41Hz). Their harmonics also travel up the frequency range. If you hear monobass instead of the instrument wood bellowing and resonating with its own unique timbre, you may have a lacking LF segment. I heard a lot of things through my AR11s, that department was their forte.

The most impressive sub I ever heard was an Infinity with 15" driver, active servo. A quite expensive model in its day. I definitely can say not all subs are made equal.

 

[Jota180]

Why do you say they are desktop speakers?

Because they are sized to be used at a 1m listening distance. They are unable to play loudly enough cleanly to function as main speakers.

Do you live in a castle? Most Uk homes have small rooms, the smallest on average in Europe and probably anywhere on the planet. It's really only the US, Australia and maybe one or two other countries that go in for huge rooms where you'd be better suited to full range floor standers.

Again, on the volume front. I bet a minute proportion of people living in this country could get speakers like the KEF's at half their potential sound level. The rest would annoy the neighbours something rotten.

You really need to consider the reality for the majority and not for the few who live in detached homes or large country piles.

 

[Vladimir]

So while small speakers can not compete with larger ones in sound quality...

Yes they can.

And then what about Stereophile ranking them as Class A speakers

They get what they're about, and appreciate what they do.

WHAT?????

Please restate....

Many audiophiles who are bookshelf speaker fans don't consider high SPL without power compression and full range sound extending to 20Hz to be part of the terms 'sound quality.' However, when you go and buy midfield studio monitors for your new professional recording studio, the ATC, JBL and PMC sales guy will tell you that is exactly what your $20,000 will buy you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlQBPAyOTEE

 

[Jota180]

No one will buy a pair of KEF LS50s for what they really are but for what they are presented to be. These are speakers aimed at audiophiles who don't understand the engineering side of how hi-fi works and relly on a company heritage, reputation, other people opinions etc. to decide if what is presented is true. When the design is subjected to scrutiny, skepticism and analysis, apologetics who pushed the initial hype begin deflating and inflating. Like shooting at a moving target.

- These LS50s are bloody amazing, giant killers, amazing sound for so little money [inflate].

- But they don't even do 105dB with reasonable amount of distortion. Actually the specs are lacking and feel manipulated. 85dB average and extra 20dB in peaks is not that much or anything to write home about.

- Yes, they don't perform as you say at 105dB [deflate], however if you buy a special amplifier, with special cables and a very good active sub to take away all the hard work off of them, they will be amazing as promised [inflate].

Wait a minute. Weren't these suposed to be amazing without a sub, in a typical middle sized room, with any decent amp fed to them? Guess what a KEF LS50 owner will do next?

a) Sell his just recently purchased and cherished speakers and buy better ones.

b) Buy special (read: more expensive) cable, stands, active subwoofer and a special amplifier? (skhumar is in this current dilemma)

@David

No one is degrading the actual design, we are trying to understand it objectively for what it really is, with all of its strengths and limitations like any other speaker. This gives balance to the hyped industry praise (everyone on the take: manufacturer, reviewers, dealers). Hopefully at the end of this discussion we all end up with reasonable expectation what the KEF LS50 can really do.

My contra-leverage to the hype so far:

1) They cannot play loud at satisfactory SPL for some people, including myself.

2) They are not a full range sound loudspeaker, and I like my grand piano and double bass.

3) They have significant amounts of distortion bellow 100Hz, although nothing to give you a headache due to nature of the harmonics.

therefore,

4) They do not perform as good as studio monitors and are not intended as such.

5) They do not perform as good as large hi-fi floorstanders and are not intended to do so.

and an added extra,

6) They are nothing similar to the BBC LS3/5a in its design and no more 'BBC' in their design goals more than any other mini monitor hi-fi loudspeaker.

Every criticism aimed at the KEF LS50 in this thread is equaly valid for all small form factor domestic hi-fi speakers. If Tannoy hyped their DC6 mini monitor dual concentrics to have super powers, most likely this thread would have been about them.

Interesting debate among the staff at Stereophile on the topic of bookshelf vs floorstanders.

That said, however, I would like to express my growing personal distaste for small monitor speakers and for the dishonesty with which they are advertised and reviewed. I can see a limited need for such units in the field and in very unusual listening conditions. I do not, however, see a need for such speakers in most listening rooms. I see no valid design reason for producing them, and feel they deserve far more criticism than they now get...

Who Stole The Bass? / No One Stole The Bass

It's horses for courses. The biggest factor in loudspeaker choice is the room they're going to go in, that and the missus.

Stereophiles comments are relevant in the US and to people who have large enough rooms to be able to accomodate large, fullrange floorstanders. Newsflash, 99.99999% of the UK do not fit into that category therefore Stereophile's comments are irrelevant to most in the country. And Japan and in a number of other European countries who have small average sized rooms.

Putting a fullrange speaker in an average UK living room is exponentially more stupid than putting the KEF LS50 in there simply because the fullrange speaker will overwhelm the space and as a result, sound crap.

For the lucky Stereophile reviewer with the large room, why on this earth would you buy the LS50 when the same company sell the Blade, for example?

People are making intellectual arguments here detached from reality and as such they're pretty much useless.

 

[shkumar4963]

@skhumar

I'd rather get a pair of B&W 805s. Unless you insist on a pair of KEF 107/2. *biggrin*

@matthewpiano

Reduce the bass tone controls on a floorstander and you get the same effect.?

Vlad: I respect your opinion and will audition them soon. Will report how I find them compared to LS50.

Others please comment if you have actually auditioned both B&W 805s and LS50.

Which one would you prefer for your main speakers and why?

They are both priced similarly and are of similar size.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Many audiophiles who are bookshelf speaker fans don't consider high SPL without power compression and full range sound extending to 20Hz to be part of the terms 'sound quality.' However, when you go and buy midfield studio monitors for your new professional recording studio, the ATC, JBL and PMC sales guy will tell you that is exactly what your $20,000 will buy you.

And I should hope so too. Recording studios need to be able to hear the full range because they're mastering what we are hearing. Although for the average end user, most speakers in their price bracket (even big floorstanders) aren't going to reach the same depths, and much of their music isn't either.

 

[Frank Harvey]

They are both priced similarly and are of similar size.

The 805s are larger than LS50s, and also use a larger mid/bass driver. Also, the current 805s are about five or six times the price of LS50s (here in the UK anyway).

 

[Jota180]

So with an average amp. say 60W per channel they should be loud enough for most people at 3m.

Who are most people?

Hi-fi enthusiasts can be expected to playback somewhere around reference levels and the LS50 with a 60W amplifier is well short of being able to reproduce musical peaks cleanly at this level at 3m. They would however be able to reproduce the average level and so would tend to sound loud enough just not clean enough for high fidelity reproduction.

You know most Hi-Fi enthusiasts now?

 

[Vladimir]

UK average is 4.8 x 4.8 m (16 x 16 ft). My listening room is 4 x 5m (13 x 16.4 ft). My speakers are 1.1m (3.6 ft) tall floorstanders that go down to 27Hz. I see no reason for your protest. *unknw*

 

[Vladimir]

The 805s are larger than LS50s, and also use a larger mid/bass driver. Also, the current 805s are about five or six times the price of LS50s (here in the UK anyway).

Considering you can only buy them second hand... Link (no affiliation)

 

[Frank Harvey]

UK average is 4.8 x 4.8 m (16 x 16 ft). My listening room is 4 x 5m (13 x 16.4 ft). My speakers are 1.1m (3.6 ft) tall floorstanders that go down to 27Hz. I see no reason for your protest. *unknw*

I'd say the average UK room is a little smaller than that.

I'd like to hear how well your speakers handle 27Hz. Not only as a single frequency, but also as normal music output.

 

[Jota180]

UK average is 4.8 x 4.8 m (16 x 16 ft). My listening room is 4 x 5m (13 x 16.4 ft). My speakers are 1.1m (3.6 ft) tall floorstanders that go down to 27Hz. I see no reason for your protest. *unknw*

The average UK living room has a 3 piece suite and other bits and pieces. You're not putting a 1 metre tall, fullrange floorstander in there, against the wall and playing it at reference levels.

Edit. You're welcome to bring them round my house - 5m by 4.5m and play them at even lowish levels while I sit back and wait for my neighbour to come round and punch your lights out!

 

[Freddy58]

I do feel there have been some unfair comparisons made. The LS50 is a small speaker, so it's not surprising that in some respects it doesn't measure up to some. True, I didn't think much of it when compared to the R300's (not much difference in price). To be fair, when I auditioned the LS50's, it was in the main showroom (AudioT), so quite a large room. I didn't think much of them (as said), but that doesn't mean they are a bad speaker, horses for courses

 

[Frank Harvey]

Considering you can only buy them second hand... Link (no affiliation)

That's not really comparing like for like. The 805s has been discontinued for quite some time, and have been improved upon with the 805Ds, which now retail for around £4-5,000. The 805s retailed for about £1,700-1,800 back in their day, which would be a good ten years ago at a guess.

They're still a noticeably bigger box than the LS50s though.

 

[Vladimir]

Edit. You're welcome to bring them round my house - 5m by 4.5m and play them at even lowish levels while I sit back and wait for my neighbour to come round and punch your lights out!

That is why I live here.

 

[shkumar4963]

They are both priced similarly and are of similar size.

The 805s are larger than LS50s, and also use a larger mid/bass driver. Also, the current 805s are about five or six times the price of LS50s (here in the UK anyway).

Wow Vlad. You were supposed to suggest a speaker that is of similar size and similarly priced. Are you trying to cheat in the comparison by comparing a 5 tiles as expensive speaker with LS50. Not good my friend ... not good at all.

I am hoping that David is correct here. I have not priced them yet.

 

[lindsayt]

I'm in the 0.00001%. Which makes me one in ten million.

And so's my brother. And my mother.

Big old Tannoy and JBL type speakers are pretty popular in Japan.

Huge speakers in small rooms can sound fine if the rooms are very well furnished.

There are 2 main reasons for buying the LS50's over the Blades. They're smaller and therefore make less visual impact on the room. And they're much cheaper.

 

[Frank Harvey]

A similar size from B&W would be the PM1s, which retail for £2,000, which is still £1,200 more than the LS50s here.

 

[Jota180]

Edit. You're welcome to bring them round my house - 5m by 4.5m and play them at even lowish levels while I sit back and wait for my neighbour to come round and punch your lights out!

That is why I live here.

You know what? If I lived out in the countryside with no neighbours either side or above me I wouldn't have bought the LS50's. I'd have bought large floorstanders with 12 inch bass drivers. And that's the crux of the issue here that you and HG don't seem to be considering.

The biggest considerations in everyone's decision when buying a Hi-Fi system is usually price, type of music they like, the room it's got to go in and being good neighbours! Bass travels through walls better than higher frequencies so LF designs are out for me.

Sure you can point to this technical aspect, or that SPL chart, or another low frequency graph but no one's going to buy something that's going to piss off the neighbours.

 

[Vladimir]

I wasn't aiming at being inconsiderate. I just wanted to have a chat about speakers, which kinda went on for 60 pages. Oh well.

 

[shkumar4963]

Edit.  You're welcome to bring them round my house - 5m by 4.5m and play them at even lowish levels while I sit back and wait for my neighbour to come round and punch your lights out! 

That is why I live here.

?

You know what?  If I lived out in the countryside with no neighbours either side or above me I wouldn't have bought the LS50's.  I'd have bought large floorstanders with 12 inch bass drivers.  And that's the crux of the issue here that you and HG don't seem to be considering.

The biggest considerations in everyone's decision when buying a Hi-Fi system is usually price, type of music they like, the room it's got to go in and being good neighbours!  Bass travels through walls better than higher frequencies so LF designs are out for me.

Sure you can point to this technical aspect, or that SPL chart, or another low frequency graph but no one's going to buy something that's going to piss off the neighbours.

I live in a big house with no neighbors but still can not buy big monster of speakers.

My room is 28 by 18 ft. But I can not convince my wife that large speakers NOT large eye sores.