KEF LS50 disappointment :(

[Jota180]

Edit. You're welcome to bring them round my house - 5m by 4.5m and play them at even lowish levels while I sit back and wait for my neighbour to come round and punch your lights out!

That is why I live here.

You know what? If I lived out in the countryside with no neighbours either side or above me I wouldn't have bought the LS50's. I'd have bought large floorstanders with 12 inch bass drivers. And that's the crux of the issue here that you and HG don't seem to be considering.

The biggest considerations in everyone's decision when buying a Hi-Fi system is usually price, type of music they like, the room it's got to go in and being good neighbours! Bass travels through walls better than higher frequencies so LF designs are out for me.

Sure you can point to this technical aspect, or that SPL chart, or another low frequency graph but no one's going to buy something that's going to piss off the neighbours.

I live in a big house with no neighbors but still can not buy big monster of speakers.

My room is 28 by 18 ft. But I can not convince my wife that large speakers NOT large eye sores.

That's another thing to be taken into consideration which is why I was saying it's no point throwing statistics at people. The buyers real life situation generally plays the most important part in the choices they make.

That's not to say what's been said is wrong, just that it doesn't trump the real life situation in every case.

 

[Vladimir]

I live in a big house with no neighbors but still can not buy big monster of speakers.

My room is 28 by 18 ft. But I can not convince my wife that large speakers NOT large eye sores.

Get her hooked on the Mad Men tv series and then buy these.

 

[shkumar4963]

So let's see how many would like CM5 or CM1 or 685s2 compared with LS50 for their main speakers.

They are similarly priced and of similar size.

Let's here from all of yoy not based on theory but based real side by side audition.

 

[shkumar4963]

I live in a big house with no neighbors but still can not buy big monster of speakers.

My room is 28 by 18 ft. But I can not convince my wife that large speakers NOT large eye sores.

Get her hooked on the Mad Men tv series and then buy these.

Haha. Yes should have done it before deciding to buy a pair.

 

[shkumar4963]

They are both priced similarly and are of similar size.

The 805s are larger than LS50s, and also use a larger mid/bass driver. Also, the current 805s are about five or six times the price of LS50s (here in the UK anyway).

Wow Vlad. You were supposed to suggest a speaker that is of similar size and similarly priced. Are you trying to cheat in the comparison by comparing a 5 times as expensive speaker with LS50. Not good my friend ... not good at all.

I am hoping that David is correct here. I have not priced them yet.

Now that 805 S are not in the same price or size with LS50, let's compare 685s2 with LS50.

If you have actually auditioned both of them as your mail speakers with or without sub, let us know what would you prefer and why?

 

[Esra]

Some impressions from real life.

I had some friends at me over the holidays and really everyone attested LS50 better sound quality,whatever that means personally, over the R900 when we did some demo with same songs.They liked the more full bodied sound and bass output of the R900 but they described LS50 more lifelike and clear.They found R900 generally better with modern music like R&B,Hip Hop and chart music,generally with music and recordings which doesn´t need high quality speakers at all imo..After knowing speaker prices and the R900 are officially nearly 3-4x price of LS50 none of them would have bought the R900 and could easily live with LS50 shortcomings in comparison.I have to admit though that my R900 system could be better with a stronger amp as I use them with a 100W Audiolab 8200P amp.None of my friends i would describe as an audiophile or someone with special affinity to high quality music reproduction.

 

[Vladimir]

The LS50 is the same mid and high driver in the R900, modified and pushed to its limits to try and produce some amount of bass in a small box (like they did with the B110). Everyone is impressed what they achieved with that driver, but nevertheless it is a compromised design compared to the floorstanders. Regardless, to some people its deficiencies accent its strengths as originally an excellent mid and high range driver and the LS50 will be loved for that.

 

[lindsayt]

A similar size from B&W would be the PM1s, which retail for £2,000, which is still £1,200 more than the LS50s here.

Yes indeed. And overall, the PM1's do not sound better than the LS50's.

The PM1's have a smoother midrange and treble at the expense of more noticeable bass distortion, plus not having the zest of the LS50's.

This makes the LS50's remarkably better value at new retail prices.

Also, the LS50's would not be my choice of speaker for low level listening as the bass only seems to come on line at generous volumes.

 

[lindsayt]

I live in a big house with no neighbors but still can not buy big monster of speakers.

My room is 28 by 18 ft. But I can not convince my wife that large speakers NOT large eye sores.

Then maybe you should try to appeal to her head more than her heart?

Put this proposition to her: For £2000 you could buy some new small speakers that sound mediocre on her favourite music. They will also need to be positioned out into the room with trip hazard wiring behind them, plus there's the fear of them being knocked over by any children or drunken visitors to the house. The will depreciate over time, so that in 10 years time they will only be worth about £500 in real terms. Or you could buy some large 2nd hand floorstanders that will work fine against the wall or in a corner, for £1000. They will sound much better for her type of music. They won't depreciate. They wont' get knocked over. And you won't have to spend £thousands on amplification to get the best out of them. And having sorted out your stereo with the large speakers, you will spend less time on hi-fi forums trying to find your next upgrade, and more time on other things.

 

[Esra]

@lindsayt

LS50 produce also great bass for their size even at low volumes if the amp and room fits.I can´t complain and miss anything at most times while listening at low volumes.

@vladimir

If I would pair r900 with a more competent and neutral amp they get more similar to ls50 while keeping their strenghts over LS50.I have tried with a NAD M22 amp and found great synergy.On long term I will upgrade my r900 with some Ncore modules too.They are a very good compromise sound/price for Kef R-Series but could be little steril with LS50 after a while.

 

[Vladimir]

On long term I will upgrade my r900 with some Ncore modules too. They are a very good compromise sound/price for Kef R-Series but could be little steril with LS50 after a while.

High damping factor amps can sound sterile with small mass midbass drivers because the strong amplifier control of the pistonic cone movement leaves no leftover decay that we are used to (and expect to) hear. However, with larger drivers it sounds like an improved tighter bass.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The LS50 is the same mid and high driver in the R900

No, it's not!!

 

[Frank Harvey]

Put this proposition to her: For £2000 you could buy some new small speakers that sound mediocre on her favourite music. They will also need to be positioned out into the room with trip hazard wiring behind them, plus there's the fear of them being knocked over by any children or drunken visitors to the house. The will depreciate over time, so that in 10 years time they will only be worth about £500 in real terms.

You forgot the positives...

 

[Esra]

The LS50 is the same mid and high driver in the R900

No, it's not!!

Do you know if the drivers between R-Series and LS50 are interchangeable?Would be interesting if it is possible and would work and if there are any differences.

 

[Vladimir]

The quote in full.

The LS50 is the same mid and high driver in the R900, modified and pushed to its limits to try and produce some amount of bass in a small box (like they did with the B110).

And of course they are not interchangable. Neither are the crossovers.

 

[DocG]

... another pair of LS50s! *crazy*

I had the off the mill 'UniQ Driver Array' type, sold it SH at little loss, and got me an ex-demo pair of the original '50th Anniversary Model' for a 50 EUR mark-up. I know the 50th Anniversary Model is off the same mill as the newer speakers, but I like them better! No, I love'em!

As I said: *crazy*

 

[Vladimir]

Congrats Doc!

 

[jackocleebrown]

I have read many Audio Critic issues. Too bad it had to close shop.

I have also read research from Audio Engineering Society as well as from Boston Acoustic Society (or is it Boston Audio Society? Any way the one that is headed by DRMORAN). They all say that it is impossible to tell any difference in ABX testing between two properly designed amplifiers as long as they are below clipping volume.

But then I also respect Jack's opinions and am open to learning new concepts and ideas. That is why I was most interested in getting Jack's thoughts on this. It has been some time since Audio Critic magazine stopped publishing and there may be new developments in amplifier technology that Jack may be aware of. Besides he tests speakers everyday and will be best to comment on what he hears when he pairs his LS50 with various amplifiers.

Jack: Is it true that you can not hear any difference in sound quality between two amplifiers as long as they are both below clipping? In your last answer you gave several reasins why a more expensive amplifier could sound better. I just assumed that you can actually hear the difference in sound quality.

(Please excuse my typos)

Sorry for jumping back a few posts, just wanted to reply to this question(s) above from shkumar4963.

When we were working on the LS50 balance we used the Electrocompanient Nemo system as a reference. From memory, at the time we had the Arcam A38 and Leema Elements Integrated on hand as popular models at the right kind of price to be partnered with the LS50.

Keep in mind that I'm an acoustics specialist, an audio electronics engineer would be the best person to discuss the details of amplifier design with you. Without wanting to be drawn into an argument of what can and cannot be heard.... in the course of working on KEF products there have been a number of occasions where I believe that I have heard an audible difference between different amplifiers.

Kind regards, Jack.

 

[jackocleebrown]

There are 5.25, 6.5 and 8inch Uni-Q driver in the Q range. This discussion is focused on the 5.25inch which is used on the Q100 and Q500.The driver in the R100 is based on the Q100 driver but has a different cone (which you can identify the driver by from the font) and some tweaks to the tweeter and midrange magnet systems to reduce the distortion (addition of shorting rings and a copper cap).The LS50 driver is a special edition of the R100 driver with a different voice coil spec (to give a slightly different bass response in the system). The surround is also different and gives a slightly tidier upper MF response. We slightly adjusted the geometry around the tweeter magnet OD, also to improve the MF response.

Just wanted to say, yes this is correct - I think the quote above was something I posted on another forum (quite a while ago now) when asked a similar question.

Vladimir, you're right that in a sense the Uni-Q drivers are a contiunous lineage right from the early ones of the Jones/Fincham era. However, I would also point out that at several points we went back to the drawing board and designed a new "platform" from scratch. The current Uni-Q "platform" was developed from scratch in around 2009/2010 following the Concept Blade project.

Also wanted to mention that the R500/700/900 Uni-Q is a little different from the LS50/R100 because the cone driver is optimised for MF only; the excursion requirement is much lower and this allows the surround and motor to be optimised for better midrange performance.

Kind regards, Jack.

 

[Gazzip]

I have read many Audio Critic issues. Too bad it had to close shop.

I have also read research from Audio Engineering Society as well as from Boston Acoustic Society (or is it Boston Audio Society? Any way the one that is headed by DRMORAN). They all say that it is impossible to tell any difference in ABX testing between two properly designed amplifiers as long as they are below clipping volume.

But then I also respect Jack's opinions and am open to learning new concepts and ideas. That is why I was most interested in getting Jack's thoughts on this. It has been some time since Audio Critic magazine stopped publishing and there may be new developments in amplifier technology that Jack may be aware of. Besides he tests speakers everyday and will be best to comment on what he hears when he pairs his LS50 with various amplifiers.

Jack: Is it true that you can not hear any difference in sound quality between two amplifiers as long as they are both below clipping? In your last answer you gave several reasins why a more expensive amplifier could sound better. I just assumed that you can actually hear the difference in sound quality.

(Please excuse my typos)

Sorry for jumping back a few posts, just wanted to reply to this question(s) above from shkumar4963.

When we were working on the LS50 balance we used the Electrocompanient Nemo system as a reference. From memory, at the time we had the Arcam A38 and Leema Elements Integrated on hand as popular models at the right kind of price to be partnered with the LS50.

Keep in mind that I'm an acoustics specialist, an audio electronics engineer would be the best person to discuss the details of amplifier design with you. Without wanting to be drawn into an argument of what can and cannot be heard.... in the course of working on KEF products there have been a number of occasions where I believe that I have heard an audible difference between different amplifiers.

Kind regards, Jack.

Integrated amplifiers can definitely have completely different sounds.

The ABX testing refered to here applies to power amplification stages. Think of pre amplification as malt whiskey and power amplification as pure water. As long as it is pure the water will taste the same wherever it comes from. However adding different malts from different distilleries will dramatically alter the flavour of the resulting drink.

I am am sitting here AB testing ARC Reference 5SE and a Musical Fidelity M8 pre-amps through my setup. You would have to be deaf not to hear the difference between the two.

 

[Native_bon]

So while small speakers can not compete with larger ones in sound quality...

Yes they can.

And then what about Stereophile ranking them as Class A speakers

They get what they're about, and appreciate what they do.

NOPE. For example, If 70% of people dislike the sound of the LS50 as suppose to 30% who is in the majority?. As far as am concerned does not matter what stereophile thinks. I think there are reasonable good sounding speakers & also alot of marketing bull goes with them as well. The ls50's are just well marketed speakers.

 

[Gazzip]

Seeing as they are marketed as the ultimate studio experience and as a window in to hearing exactly how the music was originally recorded, I would be interested in seeing how many are actually used in professional recording studios. If not many, and their pedigree is being used to sell the product, I would question the whole concept of the product.

As a matter of fact there is a story floating around in the ether that PMC almost took Kef to court over some of the marketing photography they used for the LS50. Something to do with Metropolis studios being used for the Kef photo shoot (mixing desk in a darkened room with a sound engineer intently listening to a pair of LS50's) and PMC's kit being photoshopped out of the image backgrounds. Could be total poop of course but the story is out there having heard it from several sources.....*bomb*

 

[hg]

Without wanting to be drawn into an argument of what can and cannot be heard.... in the course of working on KEF products there have been a number of occasions where I believe that I have heard an audible difference between different amplifiers.

This seems a curious statement for an acoustics specialist to make. It looks rather like the sort of thing John Atkinson comes up with in his role as editor of Stereophile.

 

[dim_span]

I have read many Audio Critic issues. Too bad it had to close shop.

I have also read research from Audio Engineering Society as well as from Boston Acoustic Society (or is it Boston Audio Society? Any way the one that is headed by DRMORAN). They all say that it is impossible to tell any difference in ABX testing between two properly designed amplifiers as long as they are below clipping volume.

But then I also respect Jack's opinions and am open to learning new concepts and ideas. That is why I was most interested in getting Jack's thoughts on this. It has been some time since Audio Critic magazine stopped publishing and there may be new developments in amplifier technology that Jack may be aware of. Besides he tests speakers everyday and will be best to comment on what he hears when he pairs his LS50 with various amplifiers.

Jack: Is it true that you can not hear any difference in sound quality between two amplifiers as long as they are both below clipping? In your last answer you gave several reasins why a more expensive amplifier could sound better. I just assumed that you can actually hear the difference in sound quality.

(Please excuse my typos)

Sorry for jumping back a few posts, just wanted to reply to this question(s) above from shkumar4963.

When we were working on the LS50 balance we used the Electrocompanient Nemo system as a reference. From memory, at the time we had the Arcam A38 and Leema Elements Integrated on hand as popular models at the right kind of price to be partnered with the LS50.

Keep in mind that I'm an acoustics specialist, an audio electronics engineer would be the best person to discuss the details of amplifier design with you. Without wanting to be drawn into an argument of what can and cannot be heard.... in the course of working on KEF products there have been a number of occasions where I believe that I have heard an audible difference between different amplifiers.

Kind regards, Jack.

I've read that the best way to compare amplifiers is by listening to them with a decent pair of headphones and not speakers ....

there are differences .... sometimes huge .... as in comparing a Pioneer SA-9800 amp to an Arcam etc...

 

[jackocleebrown]

Without wanting to be drawn into an argument of what can and cannot be heard.... in the course of working on KEF products there have been a number of occasions where I believe that I have heard an audible difference between different amplifiers.

This seems a curious statement for an acoustics specialist to make. It looks rather like the sort of thing John Atkinson comes up with in his role as editor of Stereophile.

Dear hg,

Thanks for your curiosity. You'll note that I specifically said "believe I have heard a difference" I'm not ruling out expectation bias, or even perhaps some dodgy equipment. I've not done any specific study and certainly not any AB (or any other kind of statistically significant) testing. Shkumar asked for my personal experiences, which is what I gave.

Kind regards, Jack.