Kef LS50....A technical tour de force.

[chebby]

...and the 'old drivers' (KEF B110s) had cones made of Bextrene.

I was always under the impression they were polypropelene...

They were Bextrene.

I wouldn't know, but unless you were involved in the design or manufacture, how can you be so certain. Don't believe everything that you see on the internet..............

From KEF...

"In 1966 KEF produced the first commercially available drive unit with a bextrene cone, the B110, 5” bass/midrange. This new cone material was a form of rubberised polystyrene which, when coated with a doping compound called plastiflex, achieved the required mechanical properties necessary to obtain smooth, low colouration acoustic performance"

Source...

http://www.kef.com/uploads/files/en/kef_units/A%20History%20of%20Kef%20Drive%20Units%20issue%203.pdf

They were designed by Malcolm Jones (senior development engineer at KEF in the 1960s and subsequently founder of Falcon Acoustics who still make a version of the B110 ... with Bextrene).

They were first produced in 1966 and used in the Cresta and Concerto models.

Is KEF a good enough source for this information? Do you think I can believe them?

 

[Sospri]

Falcon Acoustics who still make a version of the B110 ... with Bextrene).

It does not say it was originally made with bextrene..............

 

[chebby]

Falcon Acoustics who still make a version of the B110 ... with Bextrene).

It does not say it was originally made with bextrene..............

So you totally ignored the link to KEFs own history of their own drive units that I provided for you to read? (It's only the 4th paragraph.)

 

[The_Lhc]

Falcon Acoustics who still make a version of the B110 ... with Bextrene).

It does not say it was originally made with bextrene..............

Read the bit in italics where it says KEF made the original drivers with Bextrene. Now give it up, you're wrong, accept it.

 

[Sospri]

No. I can't be ***** , Then again I'm not a slave to google like some. Lifes too short...............

 

[chebby]

No. I can't be ***** , Then again I'm not a slave to google like some. Lifes too short...............

No-one is asking you to Google anything. Merely scroll up this thread a bit and read what KEF themselves said about their own drive unit. (Or click on the KEF link I gave.)

In cases like this it is a pleasure for me to come across manufacturer's own technical and historical documents (KEF document their company, it's history and it's products extremely well unlike many other companies.)

It is always preferable to settle doubts (like the doubt you expressed) with a manufacturer's own record of events.

Thanks sospri and Dave and BigH for the excuse to find that particular document. I have it tucked away with quite a few others now that all relate to the development of British hi-fi over the years.

It's a subject I enjoy and there was not too much Googling involved (one search for 'KEF B110 bextrene' and one click on the first item that resulted).

 

[plastic penguin]

What gets my goat is I've been crucified over the years on here, by a few, about how biased I've been towards certain brands, yet others have demonstrated a certain allegiance that far surpasses my recommendations/favs.

Kef make good speakers, but so does many other companies.

Generally if I recommend a certain product I usually *not always* put a small caveat with it. So for instance if I recommend a Arcam amp, I will make some sort of ref to the lack of current/power; MA are great speakers for the money but they need very careful system matching and/or right room acoustics.... and so it goes on.

 

[plastic penguin]

Of course all manufactuers promote their new products to the hilt, I don't have a problem with that. But why bang on about a speaker that's over 40 years old? Cause the word BBC looks impressive.

Sorry, doesn't wash with me.

No other speaker manufacturers mention links to a studio/company do they?

No, nearly all companies make reference to their successful older models or heritage in the 'About Us' section of the site. I've not seen any manufactuers websites where they constantly bang on about a certain speaker from 40 years ago, while promoting a new model. That's the crux or distinction I'm trying to convey.

 

[manicm]

What gets my goat is I've been crucified over the years on here, by a few, about how biased I've been towards certain brands, yet others have demonstrated a certain allegiance that far surpasses my recommendations/favs.

Kef make good speakers, but so does many other companies.

Generally if I recommend a certain product I usually *not always* put a small caveat with it. So for instance if I recommend a Arcam amp, I will make some sort of ref to the lack of current/power; MA are great speakers for the money but they need very careful system matching and/or right room acoustics.... and so it goes on.

Methinks you're trying to hit a crooked nail with a sledgehammer. No-one's holding a gun to your head to even audition the LS50s. Cno just posted the white paper for those who are obviously interested in the speaker. If you're not interested then ignore.

KEF state 'An innovative concept inspired by the legendary LS3/5a, LS50 mini monitor speaker is designed to bring professional studio monitor concept into the home.' on the website.

So that blurb alone may not make the speaker appeal to everyone. KEF are not alone in making a unique standmount - B&W have their PM1 which costs over twice the price.

 

[plastic penguin]

What gets my goat is I've been crucified over the years on here, by a few, about how biased I've been towards certain brands, yet others have demonstrated a certain allegiance that far surpasses my recommendations/favs.

Kef make good speakers, but so does many other companies.

Generally if I recommend a certain product I usually *not always* put a small caveat with it. So for instance if I recommend a Arcam amp, I will make some sort of ref to the lack of current/power; MA are great speakers for the money but they need very careful system matching and/or right room acoustics.... and so it goes on.

Methinks you're trying to hit a crooked nail with a sledgehammer. No-one's holding a gun to your head to even audition the LS50s. Cno just posted the white paper for those who are obviously interested in the speaker. If you're not interested then ignore.

KEF state 'An innovative concept inspired by the legendary LS3/5a, LS50 mini monitor speaker is designed to bring professional studio monitor concept into the home.' on the website.

So that blurb alone may not make the speaker appeal to everyone. KEF are not alone in making a unique standmount - B&W have their PM1 which costs over twice the price.

Don't have an issue with Cno posting a 'White Paper', clearly he loves these speakers, and have to concede they are very popular.

I can't think of any post he has replied to regarding speaker recommnedations where Kef has not been mentioned. I don't have a particular problem with that, either.

Back in the 70s friends were banging on about how great the Beatles were - I knew this because I grew up with them (my era). I heard this so many times I actually dumped all my Beatle collection (EDITED off about hearing what a great band and how other bands owe the Beatles a debt of gratitude) and it was close on a decade before I purchased another album.

Sometimes recommendations can be overplayed to such a degree that I just think "shut the EDITED up".

 

[manicm]

plastic penguin - I still think you're trying to stir a storm in a teacup. Cno posted it because he loves them and he's bought them. Call that evangelism if you will, but matthewpiano has done a similar thing with the Marantz CR610, and perhaps one day you will too with a component you love Nothing wrong in that if you truly believe in a product.

 

[The_Lhc]

I can't think of any post he has replied to regarding speaker recommnedations where Kef has not been mentioned. I don't have a particular problem with that, either.

But we are talking about what is commonly regarded as the best speaker at its price point, so what do you expect? If someone asks "what's the best small standmount between £500-1000?" the answer is very likely to be the KEF LS50 because according to most "expert" "reviews" (and I know both of those are dirty words round these parts), they are.

 

[drummerman]

I can't think of any post he has replied to regarding speaker recommnedations where Kef has not been mentioned. I don't have a particular problem with that, either.

But we are talking about what is commonly regarded as the best speaker at its price point, so what do you expect? If someone asks "what's the best small standmount between £500-1000?" the answer is very likely to be the KEF LS50 because according to most "expert" "reviews" (and I know both of those are dirty words round these parts), they are.

If you think that the room contributes to much of what you hear, 'best' is slightly vague. If the Kef's port tuning happens to fall close to one of the major room modes, no amount of engineering can help you there.

So you block ports (as I do) and in theory you've messed up that 'perfectly' engineered transducer.

'Best' is what works in your particular room. That means it may not be an LS50.

Other than that, I agree, a lot of thought has gone into the design, not least the Uni-Q which has evolved over a long time.

I certainly would like to hear a pair.

Regards

 

[plastic penguin]

I can't think of any post he has replied to regarding speaker recommnedations where Kef has not been mentioned. I don't have a particular problem with that, either.

But we are talking about what is commonly regarded as the best speaker at its price point, so what do you expect? If someone asks "what's the best small standmount between £500-1000?" the answer is very likely to be the KEF LS50 because according to most "expert" "reviews" (and I know both of those are dirty words round these parts), they are.

Most "expert" reviews, like at 'The Towers', are carried out in a specific room which costs nigh on Million quid, with special acoustic treatments. Having visited the Towers, it is not a true representation of a normal room. How many people on here own a Million pound house? let alone a single room to that value.

In their dem room you don't come across a childs scooter, ironing board, Lego strewn across the carpet, a cat using the sofa as a scratchy post, a vacuum cleaner humming away in the background etc etc etc...

 

[The_Lhc]

I can't think of any post he has replied to regarding speaker recommnedations where Kef has not been mentioned. I don't have a particular problem with that, either.

But we are talking about what is commonly regarded as the best speaker at its price point, so what do you expect? If someone asks "what's the best small standmount between £500-1000?" the answer is very likely to be the KEF LS50 because according to most "expert" "reviews" (and I know both of those are dirty words round these parts), they are.

If you think that the room contributes to much of what you hear, 'best' is slightly vague. If the Kef's port tuning happens to fall close to one of the major room modes, no amount of engineering can help you there.

So you block ports (as I do) and in theory you've messed up that 'perfectly' engineered transducer.

'Best' is what works in your particular room. That means it may not be an LS50.

You're talking about individual situations, reviews deal in generalities, they have to, you can't take into account every reader's room requirements when reviewing speakers, so this is entirely irrelevant. In general, they are regarded as the best at their price point, but that was obvious from my comment, so it gets a bit boring to have to spell it out every time. Anyway, you'll only discover if you have room issues by demoing, which is what most of us always tell people to do.

 

[The_Lhc]

I can't think of any post he has replied to regarding speaker recommnedations where Kef has not been mentioned. I don't have a particular problem with that, either.

But we are talking about what is commonly regarded as the best speaker at its price point, so what do you expect? If someone asks "what's the best small standmount between £500-1000?" the answer is very likely to be the KEF LS50 because according to most "expert" "reviews" (and I know both of those are dirty words round these parts), they are.

Most "expert" reviews, like at 'The Towers', are carried out in a specific room which costs nigh on Million quid, with special acoustic treatments. Having visited the Towers, it is not a true representation of a normal room. How many people on here own a Million pound house? let alone a single room to that value.

In their dem room you don't come across a childs scooter, ironing board, Lego strewn across the carpet, a cat using the sofa as a scratchy post, a vacuum cleaner humming away in the background etc etc etc...

So what? Reviews are general by their nature, as I said you can't take everybody's room situation into account, so that's just a pointless argument.

And if your last paragraph is true, tidy up, do the hoovering and THEN listen to your music.

 

[manicm]

Also, for the umpteenth time, this is no budget speaker to be used with any old electronics. If you cannot give it the recommended space and place it on stands then look elsewhere.

 

[plastic penguin]

I can't think of any post he has replied to regarding speaker recommnedations where Kef has not been mentioned. I don't have a particular problem with that, either.

But we are talking about what is commonly regarded as the best speaker at its price point, so what do you expect? If someone asks "what's the best small standmount between £500-1000?" the answer is very likely to be the KEF LS50 because according to most "expert" "reviews" (and I know both of those are dirty words round these parts), they are.

Most "expert" reviews, like at 'The Towers', are carried out in a specific room which costs nigh on Million quid, with special acoustic treatments. Having visited the Towers, it is not a true representation of a normal room. How many people on here own a Million pound house? let alone a single room to that value.

In their dem room you don't come across a childs scooter, ironing board, Lego strewn across the carpet, a cat using the sofa as a scratchy post, a vacuum cleaner humming away in the background etc etc etc...

So what? Reviews are general by their nature, as I said you can't take everybody's room situation into account, so that's just a pointless argument.

And if your last paragraph is true, tidy up, do the hoovering and THEN listen to your music.

Indeed. A review is a review and they are needed (as a guideline) but some take them as gospel. This is why so many newbies trip up big time. They just go by the findings of the review/star ratings and buy without hearing for themselves. Have no sympathy, unless you live outer Zanzibar.

Regarding the last paragraph, given you an example of real world hearing/listening and how that can impact on the overall SQ. Thus, the pious view LS50s may not be suited to a vast minority.

 

[manicm]

Thus, the pious view LS50s may not be suited to a vast minority.

And so would any other speaker such as the Q Concept 20. Blame can be equally spread between the maker (unrealistic specs), the seller (misguidance) and the buyer (buying blindly, lack of common sense).

I may be being a bit facetious here, but the latter cannot be understated - I'm assuming anyone spending 800 quid on a speaker has some common sense?

And I do recall a few posters here who said they preferred KEF's own R100s to the LS50s, so I don't see anyone being pious here.

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. My view is this -

There are very few items in the hifi world that I think are truly exceptional, as there is usually something else that matches it within their price range (eg. my Refs are very good, but so is the competition).....but ime, the LS50s are one of those rare items (I'm able to compare them directly to a £6k Floorstander).

I linked to the white paper, as it sheds interesting (and very open) insight into what could be making this speaker sound so special.....and I believe one of those reasons to be that it was fine-tuned by ear, rather than going for the flattest response possible.

@PP

I do recommend Kef a lot, but only since they introduced the R Series, which I happen to think are a "must audition" if in budget......Remember though, they are almost always in a list of many others, which will imo, suit the taste of the person asking.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

but ime, the LS50s (I'm able to compare them directly to a £6k Floorstander).

Hi CnE

Are you referring to 205/2's please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

but ime, the LS50s (I'm able to compare them directly to a £6k Floorstander).

Hi CnE

Are you referring to 205/2's please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Yes.

They make a good benchmark to judge the LS50s by.

 

[plastic penguin]

@PP

I do recommend Kef a lot, but only since they introduced the R Series, which I happen to think are a "must audition" if in budget......Remember though, they are almost always in a list of many others, which will imo, suit the taste of the person asking.

I appreciate your sentiments... always have done, and your advice.

Nevertherless, when I saw the R300s they were bloody humungus in depth. Contrary to what you might think, I do like Kefs - the ones I've heard - IQ5 and 7 and Reference floorstanders (can't remember the model number but they were connected to a very hi-end surround sound kit) they were really good in the price bracket, but the former two couldn't hold a candle to the RS6s with the Arcam.

Do I prefer MAs to LS50s? Couldn't say with any certainty. Do I prefer my PMCs to the LS50s? Again, not heard the two together, so wouldn't like to say one way or the other. All I can say is the TB2s with the Leema is staggering for the money.

Strangely, the PMCs I would class as more neutral than the RS6s, even though most will say the PMC 'i' series is fairly smooth. The reason for that is IMO the RS6s can sound a little cold, so south of that 'neutral' line, if you follow my drift.

 

[Frank Harvey]

but ime, the LS50s (I'm able to compare them directly to a £6k Floorstander).

Hi CnE

Are you referring to 205/2's please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Yes.

They make a good benchmark to judge the LS50s by.

They make a good benchmark to judge anything by.

 

[manicm]

Do I prefer MAs to LS50s? Couldn't say with any certainty. Do I prefer my PMCs to the LS50s? Again, not heard the two together, so wouldn't like to say one way or the other. All I can say is the TB2s with the Leema is staggering for the money.

Not disputing you there, but isn't/wasn't your TB2s even pricier than the LS50s when new? 1200 quid from what I gleaned.