Isolatton Products - what exists?

[hifikrazy]

Wish I had half the money some people obviously have to throw at products and treatments that will not and cannot make any difference.

Most often the "will not and cannot" refers to the listener who will not and cannot allow himself to hear the difference

 

[Vladimir]

Wish I had half the money some people obviously have to throw at products and treatments that will not and cannot make any difference.

Most often the "will not and cannot" refers to the listener who will not and cannot allow himself to hear the difference

Will you allow yourself to do ABX test for your Kimber vs Van Damme?

 

[MrReaper182]

Ellis, my good man, I think you need re-educating.

How very dare you come on here with your unapproved questions, unsolicited opinions and offers of help. It's a hifi forum for goodness sake, so show some decorum.

Now, contrary to popular belief, Hi-Fi forums are not the friendly cyber spaces, where enthusiasts come together in order to partake in interesting, fruitful and respectful debate......where's the fun in that?

There are a few simple rules, which if followed, will greatly help with the whole experience:

1. If you want to know whether your questions or opinions are appropriate, you need to submit them to the Science Junta for approval, and they will (unequivocally) give you a red or green light.

2. Contrary to what logic might suggest, when it comes to evaluating accessories, do not listen for yourself, but ask the advice of someone who hasn't listened to it, and they will tell you if it's worth hearing.

3. In order to get your findings taken seriously, you need to (a) invest in a technical lab, with all manner of oscilloscopes and sciencey gubbins (b) do an electronics degree, so that you can use your new equipment (c) go into partnership with a University Research Department, who will conduct and verify proper ABX, Blind and Double Blind tests, ensuring correct protocol is followed.....strictly no spouses or partners allowed.

4. Ignore all the gullible nutters who populate the forum, whose only goal is to brainwash you and weaken your resolve.

5. Recognize that you may well be an Audioholic; the symptoms of which usually include:

- An insatiable desire to tinker and improve your system with Foo.

- A strong and irrational determination to believe that what you are hearing, is real.

- An unfathomable desire to share your subversive knowledge with others.

- A belief that Hifi is a subjective experience, and enjoyment matters more than measurements.

Now if you are an Audioholic, there is hope.

If caught in the early stages, the good folk of the Junta will be more than happy to straighten you out; but if you have an ingrained and long term problem, more drastic action is needed. This requires you to join the AVI forum, whose no-nonsense, Foo-busting approach, should act like a defibrillator, shocking you back to reality. Though there is the proviso that you mustn't get banned before you get cured. Don't say you haven't been warned.

Once cured, the Hifi world is now your oyster. For example, after a period of probation (usually about 18 months), if you haven't relapsed, you can apply to join the ranks of the Science Junta. Acceptance should be seen as quite an honour, since not everyone gets in. You need to have a stout heart and a dogged persistence to fight Foo wherever you find it. Your reward is in the sense of intense satisfaction gained from the propagation of proper, unadulterated Science.

Simples.

:rofl: Funniest (and truest) thing I have read on this forum since I joined in early April.

 

[MajorFubar]

Wish I had half the money some people obviously have to throw at products and treatments that will not and cannot make any difference.

Most often the "will not and cannot" refers to the listener who will not and cannot allow himself to hear the difference

Sometimes, that's right. But other times, there are incontrovertible truths, such as changing the SATA cable from the hard drive to the PC's motherboard will not and cannot change the sound of any audio streamed from the drive, because to think otherwise just shows a clear ignorance of how every digital computer ever made has ever worked. It doesn't even have that one foot tentatively balanced in the camp of vaguely-believable pseudo-science like main-treatments and directional audio cables. It just pure and simply cannot. End of, with no vaugely-feasible contrary debate even possible.

We're all potentially susceptible to hogwash to some degree. Even me. I ripped a song twice from a CD last year, once from a £15 USB DVD ROM drive and once from my iMac's internal drive. I was convinced the rip from my Mac's drive sounded better. Yet I knew it could not. Took a null test to convince me though, even though I knew they HAD to be the same. I posted a thread on here about it.

 

[hifikrazy]

Duplicate posting removed

 

[hifikrazy]

Duplicate posting removed

 

[hifikrazy]

Wish I had half the money some people obviously have to throw at products and treatments that will not and cannot make any difference.

Most often the "will not and cannot" refers to the listener who will not and cannot allow himself to hear the difference

Will you allow yourself to do ABX test for your Kimber vs Van Damme?

Actually I've been there and done that, and on power cords, God forbid! :shame: Perhaps not a super controlled blind testing but good enough I think to remove any bias, because my friend did the changing while i stepped out the room, and piece of cardboard was used to block the rack so I couldn't see to the back.

Anyway, he switched randomly between two powercords (think it was a Kimber and a Audience) on my preamp, about 4 or 5 times, and I could identify every single time which cord was being used.

I shared this before and I was accused by the venerable TrevC of bullshitting because scientifically that just can't be possible. Anyway, when it comes down to being accused of lying when the results does not fit somebody else's preconceived opinions, then there's no point continuing the debate any further.

 

[Vladimir]

I'll take your word on it. Can you describe what were the sonic differences between the cables that gave them away?

 

[hifikrazy]

I'll take your word on it. Can you describe what were the sonic differences between the cables that gave them away?

The Kimber had a fuller/denser sound with more bass, which gave vocals more body. The Audience had a leaner and brighter sound.

 

[Vladimir]

How much does each cable cost?

 

[hifikrazy]

Since the time of that comparison, I've now standardised all my power cords to Kimber PK10 Ascent which costs USD400 per piece. The Audience Powerchord e which the comparison was done with costs USD695. The main purpose of that test was to decide whether to go all Kimber or all Audience. It used to be a mixture of cords before, some bought new and some used, which no two were alike.

 

[Al ears]

Ellis, my good man, I think you need re-educating.

How very dare you come on here with your unapproved questions, unsolicited opinions and offers of help. It's a hifi forum for goodness sake, so show some decorum.

Now, contrary to popular belief, Hi-Fi forums are not the friendly cyber spaces, where enthusiasts come together in order to partake in interesting, fruitful and respectful debate......where's the fun in that?

There are a few simple rules, which if followed, will greatly help with the whole experience:

1. If you want to know whether your questions or opinions are appropriate, you need to submit them to the Science Junta for approval, and they will (unequivocally) give you a red or green light.

2. Contrary to what logic might suggest, when it comes to evaluating accessories, do not listen for yourself, but ask the advice of someone who hasn't listened to it, and they will tell you if it's worth hearing.

3. In order to get your findings taken seriously, you need to (a) invest in a technical lab, with all manner of oscilloscopes and sciencey gubbins (b) do an electronics degree, so that you can use your new equipment (c) go into partnership with a University Research Department, who will conduct and verify proper ABX, Blind and Double Blind tests, ensuring correct protocol is followed.....strictly no spouses or partners allowed.

4. Ignore all the gullible nutters who populate the forum, whose only goal is to brainwash you and weaken your resolve.

5. Recognize that you may well be an Audioholic; the symptoms of which usually include:

- An insatiable desire to tinker and improve your system with Foo.

- A strong and irrational determination to believe that what you are hearing, is real.

- An unfathomable desire to share your subversive knowledge with others.

- A belief that Hifi is a subjective experience, and enjoyment matters more than measurements.

Now if you are an Audioholic, there is hope.

If caught in the early stages, the good folk of the Junta will be more than happy to straighten you out; but if you have an ingrained and long term problem, more drastic action is needed. This requires you to join the AVI forum, whose no-nonsense, Foo-busting approach, should act like a defibrillator, shocking you back to reality. Though there is the proviso that you mustn't get banned before you get cured. Don't say you haven't been warned.

Once cured, the Hifi world is now your oyster. For example, after a period of probation (usually about 18 months), if you haven't relapsed, you can apply to join the ranks of the Science Junta. Acceptance should be seen as quite an honour, since not everyone gets in. You need to have a stout heart and a dogged persistence to fight Foo wherever you find it. Your reward is in the sense of intense satisfaction gained from the propagation of proper, unadulterated Science.

Simples.

:rofl: Funniest (and truest) thing I have read on this forum since I joined in early April.

+1

Nice one cno. Best I've read since I joined a wee while ago

 

[Vladimir]

Since the time of that comparison, I've now standardised all my power cords to Kimber PK10 Ascent which costs USD400 per piece. The Audience Powerchord e which the comparison was done with costs USD695. The main purpose of that test was to decide whether to go all Kimber or all Audience. It used to be a mixture of cords before, some bought new and some used, which no two were alike.

There is still hope for you Krazy.

Your cables don't excede 50% of the cost of your whole system.

When they do ITS DEFIBRILLATOR TIME!

Hint: TrevC is nurse Ratched and Cheesboy is your friendly Native Indian fella.

 

[hifikrazy]

:rofl: Good one

And it's true that I often wish to do what McMurphy did to Nurse Ratched

 

[ellisdj]

Wish I had half the money some people obviously have to throw at products and treatments that will not and cannot make any difference.

Most often the "will not and cannot" refers to the listener who will not and cannot allow himself to hear the difference

Sometimes, that's right. But other times, there are incontrovertible truths, such as changing the SATA cable from the hard drive to the PC's motherboard will not and cannot change the sound of any audio streamed from the drive, because to think otherwise just shows a clear ignorance of how every digital computer ever made has ever worked. It doesn't even have that one foot tentatively balanced in the camp of vaguely-believable pseudo-science like main-treatments and directional audio cables. It just pure and simply cannot. End of, with no vaugely-feasible contrary debate even possible.

We're all potentially susceptible to hogwash to some degree. Even me. I ripped a song twice from a CD last year, once from a £15 USB DVD ROM drive and once from my iMac's internal drive. I was convinced the rip from my Mac's drive sounded better. Yet I knew it could not. Took a null test to convince me though, even though I knew they HAD to be the same. I posted a thread on here about it.

Intetesting you thought the same file ripped on 2 differenr drives / computers sounded different

I have been advised some cheaper drives with a certain chipsey uses the sata bus where as others dont. This can be important - apparentlly if you belive such tripe

 

[matt49]

Intetesting you thought the same file ripped on 2 differenr drives / computers sounded different

I have been advised some cheaper drives with a certain chipsey uses the sata bus where as others dont. This can be important - apparentlly if you belive such tripe

Well, it's eay to find out because you can null the files against one another, which gives you a 100% accurate measure of their similarity/difference.

You should try this -- I think it would be a useful exercise for you.

Matt

 

[pauln]

Interesting you thought the same file ripped on 2 differenr drives / computers sounded different

It is interesting, however it's a well documented phenomenon - have you just ignored all the stuff about why people can 'hear' differences when in fact there are none?

"Any source of sound sends vibrations or sound waves into the air. These funnel through the ear opening, down the external ear canal, and strike your eardrum, causing it to vibrate. The vibrations are passed to the three small bones of the middle ear, which transmit them to the cochlea. The cochlea contains tubes filled with fluid. Inside one of the tubes, tiny hair cells pick up the vibrations and convert them into nerve impulses. These impulses are delivered to the brain via the hearing nerve. The brain interprets the impulses as sound (music, voice, a car horn, etc.)."

The key words are "the brain interprets the impulses" this interpretation, or processing, of the signal is affected by other factors such as expectation bias and mood or state of mind, which will alter your perception of what you are hearing. There also exists the phenomenon of auditory hallucinations where people can hear things that aren't there - they get generated by the brain and are perceived as sounds. There is no doubt that these things happen. Will you keep your head buried in the sand for ever?

 

[drummerman]

Even if we assume that any advantages of isolation, cables etc is all in the mind (I don't) ... it still does the job, even if imagined so there's nothing wrong with trying imho.

As to component isolation, I find sorbothane based products fine in most circumstances other than turntables.

regards

 

[MajorFubar]

Intetesting you thought the same file ripped on 2 differenr drives / computers sounded different

I have been advised some cheaper drives with a certain chipsey uses the sata bus where as others dont. This can be important - apparentlly if you belive such tripe

The fact is though they demonstratably weren't different. They were so absolutely the same that when I aligned them in an audio editor with sample-perfect accuracy and inverted the phase of one of them, they mathematically cancelled each other out. And the point of mentioning it was that we all sometimes need a sanity check because our ears are so easily fooled.

 

[MajorFubar]

Think it's important to differentiate between being a disbeliever and being someone who just knows the facts about something enough to know that certain claims cannot be true. For example I don't believe there's a God, but I might be wrong. I'm a disbeliever, but I can't prove I'm right, so it remains open to personal belief. I also disbelieve that one meter of fancy expensive cable from the mains socket to my amp will perceivably improve its sound. But I can't prove I'm right, so it remains open to belief. Then there are the claims which provably cannot be true. Such as HDMI cables with blacker blacks and redder reds. Expensive digital cables in a PC connecting the HDD to the motherboard improve the SQ. No doubt loads of others. The manufacturers and retailers of of these things are laughing all the way to the bank with your money.

 

[hifikrazy]

I also disbelieve that one meter of fancy expensive cable from the mains socket to my amp will perceivably improve its sound. But I can't prove I'm right, so it remains open to belief.

In this regard I will certainly commend you for at least acknowledging that we might not know all there possibly can about what makes these things tick. :cheers: Which is more than I can say about many others here who think they're infallible.

 

[steve_1979]

Actually I've been there and done that, and on power cords, God forbid! :shame: Perhaps not a super controlled blind testing but good enough I think to remove any bias, because my friend did the changing while i stepped out the room, and piece of cardboard was used to block the rack so I couldn't see to the back.

Anyway, he switched randomly between two powercords (think it was a Kimber and a Audience) on my preamp, about 4 or 5 times, and I could identify every single time which cord was being used.

I shared this before and I was accused by the venerable TrevC of bullshitting because scientifically that just can't be possible. Anyway, when it comes down to being accused of lying when the results does not fit somebody else's preconceived opinions, then there's no point continuing the debate any further.

That was a blind comparison not a double-blind comparison which is one possible explanation of the results.

In clinical trials it has been found that even if the only person who knows if a placibo is being used is the tester it's possible for the patient to subconsciously pick up on their body language and this can effect the results. This is why double blind tests are done where neither the patient nor the tester know whether a placibo is being used. It's the only way to get valid results.

 

[Covenanter]

Actually I've been there and done that, and on power cords, God forbid! :shame: Perhaps not a super controlled blind testing but good enough I think to remove any bias, because my friend did the changing while i stepped out the room, and piece of cardboard was used to block the rack so I couldn't see to the back.

Anyway, he switched randomly between two powercords (think it was a Kimber and a Audience) on my preamp, about 4 or 5 times, and I could identify every single time which cord was being used.

I shared this before and I was accused by the venerable TrevC of bullshitting because scientifically that just can't be possible. Anyway, when it comes down to being accused of lying when the results does not fit somebody else's preconceived opinions, then there's no point continuing the debate any further.

That was a blind comparison not a double-blind comparison which is one possible explanation of the results.

In clinical trials it has been found that even if the only person who knows if a placibo is being used is the tester it's possible for the patient to subconsciously pick up on their body language and this can effect the results. This is why double blind tests are done where neither the patient nor the tester know whether a placibo is being used. It's the only way to get valid results.

Yep exactly right.

Chris

 

[hifikrazy]

To be quite honest, I have better things to do than set up double blind comparisons. It was a one time thing I did and I just found it pointless and boring really.

Anyway I take your point, and also acknowledge the results could be just blind luck. (or should that be double blind luck?)

 

[ellisdj]

Conscientiously you knew they were the same but they sounded different. To the point where

Fair play you then tried to justify and ruled it out by a science method.

It must have been a small difference. Did you listen after have you tried it again - no science just your ears??