I've always used my ears and couldn't give a damn about the science really. I fiddle around a lot with my system, way too much in fact as I'm always bringing home a lot of goodies on trial. So before that single blind test, I was already familiar with how each cord sounds like as both belong to me and I find that the differences between them are certainly not subtle. So when my friend helped me with that blind comparison, we just played back the first minute of a particular song that I'm very familiar with, and frankly it wasn't difficult at all to identify which was which.
I have fooled myself once or twice in this hobby but I think you can get attuned to hearing something sound a certain way and then its very easy to detect a change in it.
So much so that the songs you know the best quite often when you make a big upgrade or significant change they dont always sound right at first.
Purely because their different to how you are used to them sounding- this is what I find - so then sometimes you have the initial mind challenge - does this sound better / is this more accurate - the main goal for me is dual really
I have also found - the best systems I have heard - with least amount of phat added to them in its different guises - and there is a ton of phat added to the sound in the majority of systems / setups / rooms sound the leanest - but the cleanest.
Which is why I feel you read a lot - upgraded and system sounds less fun.
People are used to hearing noise added to the sound and used to hearing it sound that way
There is actually a lot of work been done on this - and why I think the Pono developers feels its a much better product than the majority of people will have ever heard before - becuase it actually removes digital noise in the recording (removes it from the leading edge of notes and hides it elsewhere) I am pretty sure this is why unless they have somehting else up their sleeve as well - or I might be totally wrong
On my blind testing on isolation, it was 100% proved to me that day it also proved to me I was used to hearing a sound with phat added to it.
I correctly identified my preferred sound (the isolation used) on 3 different songs I had never heard before on a system I had never heard before. All that was being changed was the location of the CD player - concrete floor, glass and bamboo. I had no idea - I thought components were being changed as did 2 others - that shows something in terms of how blind I was to the test if nothing else.
I preferred the sound of the concrete floor everytime
To me it had the most drive to the sound - seemed to feel it the most
However that was actually the worst sound / least accurate as that was having the most phat added from the vibrations through the floor.
Point proved to myself
What I have found since is that phat added to the sound clouds the sound - and you dont hear the subtle imaging cues that makes a sound 3 dimentional. The room does this the 10000% worst than anything else.
The room can make a system sound completely flat - just a mush going left to right and I have heard top systems sound like this knowing they would sound amazing in a better environment (this is what my comments were about eariler was I was saying my system at home desroys these). Turn them up they will no doubt sound harsh - real harsh and it makes certain music unlistenable - people blame the CD - I would say 9/10 its actually not the cd at all.
A quick word on my sata cables that I have been slated for - i am not 100% how it makes the sound better - technically it cant as has been mentioned
All I know is before I was using a £6 silverstone cable that has some emi rejection - bit of copper tape around it I think
I changed it for the Jcat with an open mind - the systems scale grew about 2 fold - the sound after was massive - certain songs almost floor to ceiling - wall to wall. It was also much cleaner - there was much less harshness and it was a much nicer listen. Not small differences
I have compounded these changes with others to reduce the harshness even more and I can now listen to 99% of all music of all styles and nothing sounds harsh, it doesnt all sound great and the sound is not perfect. But I could not do this before and stuff still sounded harsh especially a louder volumes.
Some songs were harsh and the scale definately wasnt there either. The scale now is far too big for my room, my room is much too small and thats crippling my overall sound but what can you do - why will never be perfect sadly.
You wont believe this to be true - and I dont blame you at all. I cant prove it any other way than by someone listening to it. This actually might well be happening so we will see
I want to point out
I have never once suggested anyone goes out and buys these cables - I have suggested people try Jplay for FREE becuase its excellent.
I have also suggested people use computer audio design operating system tweaks becasue they are also FREE and completely reversable.
But I am very happy with the jcat cable products (Now have 3 of them) - it doesnt bother me what people say about me for buying them either. I would not scrutinise anyone for buying anything - so please either ignore me or just forget the need to now start jumping on and habing a go at what I have said as dillusional or false etc - the thread has seen enough of that already.
How about more just more opinions and easy going chat
So much so that the songs you know the best quite often when you make a big upgrade or significant change they dont always sound right at first.
Purely because their different to how you are used to them sounding- this is what I find - so then sometimes you have the initial mind challenge - does this sound better / is this more accurate - the main goal for me is dual really
I have also found - the best systems I have heard - with least amount of phat added to them in its different guises - and there is a ton of phat added to the sound in the majority of systems / setups / rooms sound the leanest - but the cleanest.
Which is why I feel you read a lot - upgraded and system sounds less fun.
People are used to hearing noise added to the sound and used to hearing it sound that way
There is actually a lot of work been done on this - and why I think the Pono developers feels its a much better product than the majority of people will have ever heard before - becuase it actually removes digital noise in the recording (removes it from the leading edge of notes and hides it elsewhere) I am pretty sure this is why unless they have somehting else up their sleeve as well - or I might be totally wrong
On my blind testing on isolation, it was 100% proved to me that day it also proved to me I was used to hearing a sound with phat added to it.
I correctly identified my preferred sound (the isolation used) on 3 different songs I had never heard before on a system I had never heard before. All that was being changed was the location of the CD player - concrete floor, glass and bamboo. I had no idea - I thought components were being changed as did 2 others - that shows something in terms of how blind I was to the test if nothing else.
I preferred the sound of the concrete floor everytime
To me it had the most drive to the sound - seemed to feel it the most
However that was actually the worst sound / least accurate as that was having the most phat added from the vibrations through the floor.
Point proved to myself
What I have found since is that phat added to the sound clouds the sound - and you dont hear the subtle imaging cues that makes a sound 3 dimentional. The room does this the 10000% worst than anything else.
The room can make a system sound completely flat - just a mush going left to right and I have heard top systems sound like this knowing they would sound amazing in a better environment (this is what my comments were about eariler was I was saying my system at home desroys these). Turn them up they will no doubt sound harsh - real harsh and it makes certain music unlistenable - people blame the CD - I would say 9/10 its actually not the cd at all.
A quick word on my sata cables that I have been slated for - i am not 100% how it makes the sound better - technically it cant as has been mentioned
All I know is before I was using a £6 silverstone cable that has some emi rejection - bit of copper tape around it I think
I changed it for the Jcat with an open mind - the systems scale grew about 2 fold - the sound after was massive - certain songs almost floor to ceiling - wall to wall. It was also much cleaner - there was much less harshness and it was a much nicer listen. Not small differences
I have compounded these changes with others to reduce the harshness even more and I can now listen to 99% of all music of all styles and nothing sounds harsh, it doesnt all sound great and the sound is not perfect. But I could not do this before and stuff still sounded harsh especially a louder volumes.
Some songs were harsh and the scale definately wasnt there either. The scale now is far too big for my room, my room is much too small and thats crippling my overall sound but what can you do - why will never be perfect sadly.
You wont believe this to be true - and I dont blame you at all. I cant prove it any other way than by someone listening to it. This actually might well be happening so we will see
I want to point out
I have never once suggested anyone goes out and buys these cables - I have suggested people try Jplay for FREE becuase its excellent.
I have also suggested people use computer audio design operating system tweaks becasue they are also FREE and completely reversable.
But I am very happy with the jcat cable products (Now have 3 of them) - it doesnt bother me what people say about me for buying them either. I would not scrutinise anyone for buying anything - so please either ignore me or just forget the need to now start jumping on and habing a go at what I have said as dillusional or false etc - the thread has seen enough of that already.
How about more just more opinions and easy going chat
There is a video advertising it - sure i read or in that video claims better than heard before
Its designed by Ayre who have done a lot of work with.digital filters maybe i have assumed this from my knowledge of.Ayre and watching that vid.
Bloody.good advertising it did make me assume that.
The product not for me but the music quality sounds interesting if its high.quality
Its designed by Ayre who have done a lot of work with.digital filters maybe i have assumed this from my knowledge of.Ayre and watching that vid.
Bloody.good advertising it did make me assume that.
The product not for me but the music quality sounds interesting if its high.quality
In faq - will i hear a difference in pono music
I must.have assumed the bit about using filters for the digital. That could well be wrong as i said
I must.have assumed the bit about using filters for the digital. That could well be wrong as i said
bigboss
Moderator
- Mar 25, 2009
- 6,241
- 1,166
- 27,570
Saw your message on AVF only today ellisdj. I have replied. You'll have to agree to a blind test with me, to see if we can really hear the difference. I'm sure your system will sound amazing, but I want to know how much do individual components play a part. So it's not just a matter of showing off your system, but also agreeing to participate in a blind test with me (similar to your blind tests in the past).
HI bb
I have replied with a basic proposal
Sata.cable cant make.a.difference so knowing its.changed should make.no.difference to what you think
This test.needs.to be the.other way around -i feel its not.whats.best its.is.there.a.noticeable.difference.
You know.1 or.2 sata.have.been changed to generic cables now can i hear any difference
It cant do so it doesnt make any difference knowing or not.
We wont discuss results until the end - or before so i cant brain wash you, as if i could anyway
I have replied with a basic proposal
Sata.cable cant make.a.difference so knowing its.changed should make.no.difference to what you think
This test.needs.to be the.other way around -i feel its not.whats.best its.is.there.a.noticeable.difference.
You know.1 or.2 sata.have.been changed to generic cables now can i hear any difference
It cant do so it doesnt make any difference knowing or not.
We wont discuss results until the end - or before so i cant brain wash you, as if i could anyway
Thats the safest way for my kit. Its very tight in the case and the cables are bent to be in there. This is not good the jcat cable is mega bent. Thats breaks its £300 its not fair put that on you or in my wallet.
Its you needs decide if there is any difference not me.
I am arranging do same test with another member
Only thing needs be confirmed is you being honest and me not influencing you, while will be out of the room and no talking
The audio pc system tweaks have a countdown once thats finished press play.
Its you needs decide if there is any difference not me.
I am arranging do same test with another member
Only thing needs be confirmed is you being honest and me not influencing you, while will be out of the room and no talking
The audio pc system tweaks have a countdown once thats finished press play.
Perhaps you've already checked this brands products out (?) plus and I did mention Finite Elemente to you in another post on another forum but they are my personal recommendation.
http://www.finite-elemente.de/en/accessories/cerafamily
I've used products of theirs for about 10 years underneath speakers, subwoofers, disc players, processors, avr's and amplifiers with good results. Using Cerapuc and Ceraball, always with a set of 3. Currently using Ceraball underneath all my electronics. When I upgrade my speaker system I will install them underneath those as well. Benefits in my system include tighter focus, less bass bloat, greater sense of 'space'. It's not until you've lived with them a while and then remove them that you notice what a difference they make. Not night and day, by any means, but enough for me to wanna keep em. Home trial is essential. My dealer have always let me borrow sets for home trial as the result of this tweak and whether you think the investment is worth it or not is individual.
http://www.finite-elemente.de/en/accessories/cerafamily
I've used products of theirs for about 10 years underneath speakers, subwoofers, disc players, processors, avr's and amplifiers with good results. Using Cerapuc and Ceraball, always with a set of 3. Currently using Ceraball underneath all my electronics. When I upgrade my speaker system I will install them underneath those as well. Benefits in my system include tighter focus, less bass bloat, greater sense of 'space'. It's not until you've lived with them a while and then remove them that you notice what a difference they make. Not night and day, by any means, but enough for me to wanna keep em. Home trial is essential. My dealer have always let me borrow sets for home trial as the result of this tweak and whether you think the investment is worth it or not is individual.
Wow my last post seemed aggressive, it wasnt meant to.be - typing on phone not same as keyboard
Ellisdj,
I have a cautionary tale for you. Many, many years ago when I was a freshly minted electronic engineer, I was fortunate enough to have a job in the research and designs group of a well known broadcaster. In the lab next to mine, a team were working on the development of a loudspeaker. Knowing I was keen on HiFi, they volunteered to demonstrate their work. In an acoustically treated room, they demonstrated the various development speakers they had been working on. Each time, they explained what problem had been overcome, and how each speaker was a step forward in their design process. I felt pretty good, I could clearly identify every point and nuance that they were explaining, each speaker was clearly an improvement over the previous version. Except they never changed the speaker, it was always the same one.
It taught me an important lesson. Never, ever trust your ears.
I have a cautionary tale for you. Many, many years ago when I was a freshly minted electronic engineer, I was fortunate enough to have a job in the research and designs group of a well known broadcaster. In the lab next to mine, a team were working on the development of a loudspeaker. Knowing I was keen on HiFi, they volunteered to demonstrate their work. In an acoustically treated room, they demonstrated the various development speakers they had been working on. Each time, they explained what problem had been overcome, and how each speaker was a step forward in their design process. I felt pretty good, I could clearly identify every point and nuance that they were explaining, each speaker was clearly an improvement over the previous version. Except they never changed the speaker, it was always the same one.
It taught me an important lesson. Never, ever trust your ears.
andyjm said:
Hi Andy - your tale has told me one thing
Not to.trust your ears
I think stuation plays a pivotal role in influence bias.
However i only have my ears they are what i use to make my choices and i know they will be different to yours
I also know BB believes digital is digital he doesnt feel digital can be different its just digital
So his expectation bias is perfect as he will believe there can be no difference.
I.hope to show him different but wont try and influence him. He is a doctor and i am not derren brown so you have nothing to fear
...
Now wake ......
ellisdj said:
You know, SATA cables sound far better when they're straight. I thought everybody knew this?
ReValveiT said:
Stuffed then
cable more bent than Rylan..... ( hope he doesnt take offence none intended)The whole idea of coming by without doing a double blind test or even a simple blind swapping exercise, seems extremely counterproductive. The outcome is already known: Ellisdj feels confirmed in his opinion, and the critical visitor will keep insisting that it’s not clear whether the different cables have produced audible differences.
Too bad that Ellisdj just wants to showcase how awesome his system sounds, rather than participate in an experiment of which the results I would love to read.
EDIT: I missed that Ellisdj wants to do the swapping and let other people listen 'blind' to the system. In this case it's rather unfortunate that Ellisdj is not prepared to test his own beliefs. If someone else doesn't hear what Ellisdj hears, it would still mean nothing to Ellisdj.
Too bad that Ellisdj just wants to showcase how awesome his system sounds, rather than participate in an experiment of which the results I would love to read.
EDIT: I missed that Ellisdj wants to do the swapping and let other people listen 'blind' to the system. In this case it's rather unfortunate that Ellisdj is not prepared to test his own beliefs. If someone else doesn't hear what Ellisdj hears, it would still mean nothing to Ellisdj.
I thought that might be what you wanted to do.
Lets straighten something out - i.have.made NO recommendations regarding jcat products
I.have written.what i thought the differences.were when adding the jcat sata.and that i like.them
Its up to you now if you hear the same or anything different at all.
We might be able to.do the test but i am not keen on keep plugging unplugging the jcat. You will understand when you see.it
I.have.wanted to demo.my.system to BB.for ages to show him a few of the things we have debated before. Not to be a pratt show off or anything about it. I am not lke that
Feedback is also helpful in moving forward as.its.far.from perfect
In addition if its not a clear difference then its a no to there being a difference - i expect it to be very clear, especially after changing both sata to generic
For generic i mean the standard red ones that come with everything.
Lets straighten something out - i.have.made NO recommendations regarding jcat products
I.have written.what i thought the differences.were when adding the jcat sata.and that i like.them
Its up to you now if you hear the same or anything different at all.
We might be able to.do the test but i am not keen on keep plugging unplugging the jcat. You will understand when you see.it
I.have.wanted to demo.my.system to BB.for ages to show him a few of the things we have debated before. Not to be a pratt show off or anything about it. I am not lke that
Feedback is also helpful in moving forward as.its.far.from perfect
In addition if its not a clear difference then its a no to there being a difference - i expect it to be very clear, especially after changing both sata to generic
For generic i mean the standard red ones that come with everything.
Broner said:
I dont care about the test - if BB hears no difference i.will still use the Jcat.
If BB hears no.difference i.will do.the.test - i honestly dont think he will need me to.though.
However there is no way i am pulling about my.jcat cable, BB.will see why, i will post a pic if i can. Its literally bent in such a way i am surprised it still works as it is.
I have no job in this industry, no connection to anyone or any company. I believe in.praise where praise is due.and pushing picture and sound quality to.the.highest level posdible.
If it improves sound or pic then i will try it.
BB of course you can see the tv - why need limit sound testing time. I think you will see hear then know why i align my views as i.do
Meant in nice way
Covenanter
Well-known member
- Jul 20, 2012
- 96
- 50
- 18,620
To go back to isolation products, whilst some may isolate equipment from vibrations from the ground what isolates kit from sonic vibrations?
Chris
Chris
Vladimir said:ellisdj said:
How about your cousin?
Nope nothing to do with the industry - but he did 100% introduce me to jplay and pc audio exactly as i said.
I had a Meridian Sooloos mc200 ans ms600 at the time
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