Is it all its cracked up to be?

[CJSF]

I'm following your turntable adventures with interest, as I do with other folks tales of upgrades/tweaks etc.

As much as I like my trusty old P3 I can't help but think that I would like to go to the next level sometime in the new year, but the P3 is such a good performer for the money (particularly with the 2M blue onboard) I fear that it will be a costly exercise for significant improvements. I'll see what 2014 brings.

..

Hi DIB, not as costly as you think . . . first, a new metal sub platter from £60 to £200, they all seem to work well, I plumped for a middle price Isokinetik GT @ £120? White belt, £20, and a ceramic bearing £10, yes you can go further but in cost effective terms, these are the basics and biggest bang for your buck IMHO. Start looking at acrylic type platters, arms, cartridges and full make overs, value starts to diminish, you have to be a nutter like :bounce: me to go down that route The very fine tuning is worth it, but when cost is a consideration, I doubt the wisdom? I might even go, 1, white belt . . . 2, sub platter and ceramic bearing together, especially if you went for the 'Iso GT sub platter', they do a package? CJSF

Cheers, do you never sleep?

Cost is always a consideration for me and 2014 is shaping up to be a costly one for our household for one (non hi-fi related) reason or another,

I'm not hung up on getting on the upgrade escalator, however if I ever saw a good deal for one of those Pro-Ject 6 Perspex models then who knows...

.

Cost, me too . . . I am retired and on a fixed income, so all the changes I have made were looked at from the financial side. Its why, if you look at any of my tweakes in the past year, (after the splash out on the Icon ST40 valve amp in Jauary) they are all of sophisicated bodge status, cheap and they work. I sunk all my spare cash into the amp, found cheap Russian valves that worked realy well. Much time in the second half of this year has been spent on TT tweaks, total investment £60, the rest has be from the scrap box and re-using disgarded items diferantly, that in itself was very satisfying.

Sleep, me? . . . that was the end of Horlicks hour, Hazel gets ready for bed, I have 20 minutes on the computer, I leave the music playing, my speakers are placed each end of my desk, so I sit in the middle doing some close field listening. Its amazing what one hears in 'close field'. I use it a lot to evaluate changes, in conjunction with normal position evaluation of course. Close field ensures I get the assesment of small detail right.

CJSF

 

[matthewpiano]

Another thing I've found is that if I set the bias to 1.5 on the dial rather than halfway between 1.5 and 2.0 (approx the recommended tracking force for the Elys, of 1.75), it actually tracks better. I suppose the bias setting dial must be inaccurate.

 

[stevebrock]

Another thing I've found is that if I set the bias to 1.5 on the dial rather than halfway between 1.5 and 2.0 (approx the recommended tracking force for the Elys, of 1.75), it actually tracks better. I suppose the bias setting dial must be inaccurate.

its only a rough guide - have a look at your stylus head on - if its straight then fine

 

[chebby]

Another thing I've found is that if I set the bias to 1.5 on the dial rather than halfway between 1.5 and 2.0 (approx the recommended tracking force for the Elys, of 1.75), it actually tracks better. I suppose the bias setting dial must be inaccurate.

Try bias on 1 or less (even 0.5).

 

[stevebrock]

Another thing I've found is that if I set the bias to 1.5 on the dial rather than halfway between 1.5 and 2.0 (approx the recommended tracking force for the Elys, of 1.75), it actually tracks better. I suppose the bias setting dial must be inaccurate.

Try bias on 1 or less (even 0.5).

I run no bias on my RP6

 

[stevebrock]

if the arm is pulling the stylus away from the spindle then back off on the bias

 

[drummerman]

I find using about half recommended bias yields better results with both the Sony and Thorens. Of course, no such problems with the linear trackers.

regards

 

[matthewpiano]

Is the tracking force dial also inaccurate? It sounds much better set at 1.5 than 1.75 (ish).

 

[stevebrock]

Is the tracking force dial also inaccurate? It sounds much better set at 1.5 than 1.75 (ish).

Its only a rough guide, its wise to invest in some scales.

I always try to reset it, dial at 0.0 and scales reading 0 with arm on scales ( you will need to adjust counterweight - obviously )

it will always be a little out

Its great that you can tell the difference, so now keep it at 1.5 - if you get a new cart then the process will need starting again!

 

[floyd droid]

Without any doubt yes. Treat yourself to some scales Matthew, then you can fine adjust either side of the median vtf. Take notes as you go along for reference.

 

[DIB]

I'm going to invest in a set of these digital scales. There is a plethora of similar looking products on Ebay around the £20 mark. What are you chaps using, and could you recommend a decent set for me please, or are they all basically the same quality? By the way, I'm not looking at the ones costing £80/£100 and more, that seems a bit excessive to me.

Cheers

.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

I bought these DIB, which were recommended by Drummerman, great little scales.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-x-200g-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-Mini-Electronic-LCD-Gram-Scales-New-UK-/400624898880?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d471ad340

 

[stevebrock]

I bought these DIB, which were recommended by Drummerman, great little scales.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-x-200g-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-Mini-Electronic-LCD-Gram-Scales-New-UK-/400624898880?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d471ad340

Yep same here!

 

[DIB]

Cheers chaps, that's my kind of price!

.

 

[CJSF]

I bought these DIB, which were recommended by Drummerman, great little scales.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-x-200g-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-Mini-Electronic-LCD-Gram-Scales-New-UK-/400624898880?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d471ad340

Was there not a problem with the cheaper scales being magnetic with MC cartridges?

 

[stevebrock]

I bought these DIB, which were recommended by Drummerman, great little scales.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-x-200g-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-Mini-Electronic-LCD-Gram-Scales-New-UK-/400624898880?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d471ad340

Was there not a problem with the cheaper scales being magnetic with MC cartridges?

yes forgot to say they are magnetic, so be careful with MC

 

[CJSF]

I have a pair of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PROFESSIONAL-DIGITAL-TURNTABLE-STYLUS-FORCE-SCALE-GAUGE-including-BATTERIES-/221335596420?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3388a12d84

No magnetic problems.

 

[DIB]

I bought these DIB, which were recommended by Drummerman, great little scales.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-x-200g-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-Mini-Electronic-LCD-Gram-Scales-New-UK-/400624898880?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d471ad340

I bought myself some of these scales, and as I had a bit of time to myself this morning thought I'd have a tinker with the tracking weight ( you'd be proud CJ! ).

Started from scratch, set the dial on the RB300 to zero and carefully using the counterweight got the stylus floating to a point no more than 1mm above the LP.

The recommended weight for the 2M Blue is 1.8gm so re-set the dial on the RB300 to a point just over halfway between 1.5 - 2.0. Set the anti-skate to about 1 so job done. OK so far. Then I placed the digital scales underneath to double check the weight, and to my surprise the weight was reading 2.10gm, a difference of 0.30gms! When it comes to tracking weight that seems a big disparity. I changed the dial on the RB300 down to 1.5gm and re-checked with the digital scales, bang on 1.8gms. So the same difference of 0.3gm.

I must presume that the digital scales are the correct reading, so is it normal that the RB300 measurements can be so far out?

.

 

[stevebrock]

I must presume that the digital scales are the correct reading, so is it normal that the RB300 measurements can be so far out?

Yes the scales are correct, the Dial on the arm is just a rough guide - thats why it is best to check tracking force yourselfDo some experimenting with different tracking forces (within the paremeters of your cart0 and see whta differences you can here!

 

[drummerman]

I bought these DIB, which were recommended by Drummerman, great little scales.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-x-200g-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-Mini-Electronic-LCD-Gram-Scales-New-UK-/400624898880?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d471ad340

I bought myself some of these scales, and as I had a bit of time to myself this morning thought I'd have a tinker with the tracking weight ( you'd be proud CJ! ).

Started from scratch, set the dial on the RB300 to zero and carefully using the counterweight got the stylus floating to a point no more than 1mm above the LP.

The recommended weight for the 2M Blue is 1.8gm so re-set the dial on the RB300 to a point just over halfway between 1.5 - 2.0. Set the anti-skate to about 1 so job done. OK so far. Then I placed the digital scales underneath to double check the weight, and to my surprise the weight was reading 2.10gm, a difference of 0.30gms! When it comes to tracking weight that seems a big disparity. I changed the dial on the RB300 down to 1.5gm and re-checked with the digital scales, bang on 1.8gms. So the same difference of 0.3gm.

I must presume that the digital scales are the correct reading, so is it normal that the RB300 measurements can be so far out?

.

These scales are very accurate factory set. - If in doubt, get yourself a new as possible 5pence piece, polish it and use it as reference weight.

http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/coin-design-and-specifications/five-pence-coin

regards

 

[DIB]

I must presume that the digital scales are the correct reading, so is it normal that the RB300 measurements can be so far out?

Yes the scales are correct, the Dial on the arm is just a rough guide - thats why it is best to check tracking force yourselfDo some experimenting with different tracking forces (within the paremeters of your cart0 and see whta differences you can here!

Track 3, Side 2 on a recent 2nd hand Chris Rea LP does not stick anymore at the new setting

.

 

[stevebrock]

DIB, nice one mate

I have been experimenting with tracking force lately too, I like the Nagaoka at 1.9g - recommened is 1.5-2.0

I love tweaking, I have my bias slider pushed right in too

When I get round to it I am going to order an MP200 (purple) as it has a boron cantilever - its a £300 cart, if the £100 MP110 is anything to go by then the MP200 should yield excellent results.

 

[DIB]

These scales are very accurate factory set. - If in doubt, get yourself a new as possible 5pence piece, polish it and use it as reference weight.

http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/coin-design-and-specifications/five-pence-coin

regards

[/quote]

Thanks for that. 3.25gms , bang on!

.

 

[stevebrock]

Mine read 3.25 too

 

[CJSF]

I bought these DIB, which were recommended by Drummerman, great little scales.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01g-x-200g-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-Mini-Electronic-LCD-Gram-Scales-New-UK-/400624898880?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d471ad340

I bought myself some of these scales, and as I had a bit of time to myself this morning thought I'd have a tinker with the tracking weight ( you'd be proud CJ! ).

Started from scratch, set the dial on the RB300 to zero and carefully using the counterweight got the stylus floating to a point no more than 1mm above the LP.

The recommended weight for the 2M Blue is 1.8gm so re-set the dial on the RB300 to a point just over halfway between 1.5 - 2.0. Set the anti-skate to about 1 so job done. OK so far. Then I placed the digital scales underneath to double check the weight, and to my surprise the weight was reading 2.10gm, a difference of 0.30gms! When it comes to tracking weight that seems a big disparity. I changed the dial on the RB300 down to 1.5gm and re-checked with the digital scales, bang on 1.8gms. So the same difference of 0.3gm.

I must presume that the digital scales are the correct reading, so is it normal that the RB300 measurements can be so far out?

.

I know I bang on a bit DIB, but what you have discovered is why, you pay all that money fro a tone arm at it is so far out on its down force scale, you dont stand a chance of getting a decent sound with such poor accuracy. By the way, when I was using a Rega arm, mine was about that much out.

Dont be satisfied with 1.8g, now you have an accurate reference you can move a few points either way, see how you like the sound? I seem to remember my 2M Blue became rather euphoric as it got lighter towards 1.5g . . . 1.9-1.8 was about right for me.

Why try different down forces . . . it gives an incite in to how the system sounds for future reference, and you may prefer a slightly different setting, dont know till you try? :?

CJSF