Inspire Quest Rega Upgrade

[CJSF]

Peter from Alternative Audio recommended that, as I'm going the moving coil route, then the signal path would benefit from being as good as possible - ie, use a better cartridge-to-amp wiring than came with the original p3.

So after a bit of research, and a bit of advice on options from Analogue Seduction, this is the rewire I've gone for...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390400707889&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123

It's an all-in-one, single cable reach from cartridge to amp, with a separate grounding wire (I understand that the Rega originally grounds through one of the L/R channels?)

I'll do the rewire before getting the new cartridge, so that I can check any differences step by step.

The subplatter is still running-in ...I turned it off overnight, but then started it again before heading in to work (my patience surprises me this time

I've also bought some Isokinetic shims, just in case the new Benz cartridge needs more height (VTA) than the Goldring 1042 did - any heads-up advice on this last point most welcome.

Dandy . . . I'm getting :bounce: . . .

Interested in the rewire results, especially what it might do for the Goldring? I'm not one for silver cable . . . but, ever the open mind, I look forward to your comments?

As for shims, I presumed these would be fitted by 'Peter'? Sounds like he is leaving it to you? Any-old-how, the criteria I worked with was that the Rega VTA geometry is designed to work with their 15mm standard cartridge height. I think the Goldring is 17.5mm? . . . I have no idea what the Glider is, probably be in the instructions . . . I would guess, 18mm? There may also be some guidance on the arm height at pivot point; arm parallel, high, low?

Its a faff, takes time, experience has taught me dont assume just because the difference between 15 and 18mm is three . . . god I'm running hot this morning:bounce: . . . that you will require 3mm of shim. That difference, although correct, was too much for me, I listened, changed shims, listened again etc. Tedious, worrying as the cartridge is vulnerable every time you remove the arm . . . I eventually settled on 1mm of shim, visually, my cartridge body runs parallel to the record . . . it is18mm high . . . so, its suck it and see.

Took me a couple of shimming sessions, the initial one, to get it sounding OK . . . then after a few hours of the cartridge settling into my system, (you will need a lot more time running it in) and me liking/disliking various tracks, I was able to be more specific and settled on +1mm.

Over many hours playing time, the sound is getting sweeter, this I put down to the settling of various components and adjustments I have made, like main bearing/sub, cartridge VTA, cartridge stylus pressure, arm bias.

Get comfortable with the sound, me being me, after that first few hours of adjust, listen and adjust process. I found, after a few more hours, I was able to fine tune the stylus pressure and arm bias to an even sweeter point of focus. Reducing down force by tiny, tiny amounts, the bias is now almost zero as well. These minute adjustments, some would say, are pedantic . . . to my ears they are significant and important to the final performance I hear.

I can be(am?) ultra-fussy, so you have to decide where you are happy to stop? . . . but in my opinion, my fussiness has paid dividends by the bucket full, 'extracting so much from so little'.

CJSF

 

[DandyCobalt]

Thanks cjsf, I'll leave the shims to Peter when he fits the Benz - just thought I should have them, just in case.

Plus the Goldring 1042 runs very low on the vinyl, given that I've got a 25mm acrylic platter plus the acrimat on top.

First play with the new subplatter will be tonight - fingers crossed.

 

[DandyCobalt]

Had first play with the new metal sub-platter in place and....not sure I can hear any difference, frankly. Certainly not a dramatic enough difference to go "wow".

Perhaps a problem is that these differences need a proper a/b testing, but with a 24-hour plus gap between listens, and at different times of the day etc, it's hard to tell.

I'll have a fiddle with the sorbothane as fills, because that won't cost anything.

 

[CJSF]

Had first play with the new metal sub-platter in place and....not sure I can hear any difference, frankly. Certainly not a dramatic enough difference to go "wow".

Perhaps a problem is that these differences need a proper a/b testing, but with a 24-hour plus gap between listens, and at different times of the day etc, it's hard to tell.

I'll have a fiddle with the sorbothane as fills, because that won't cost anything.

. . . ??? I wonder, as Robert said, he could not hear any difference between the metal and original Rega Sub. There are quite pronounced improvements on a 'Rega' deck . . . but we aint dealing Rega, we have 2 inches of solid birch ply, obviously a whole new ball game?

Often the way to track down subtle changes is to go back . . . pop the Rega sub back in . . . then re instate the 'orange section' damping. By the sounds of things, you are into the finer improvements, which is how it gets as you move up the SQ ladder.

Frankly I would not bother with the sorbothane damping on the metal sub, the results are subtle. I'd put the effort into back tracking to establish 'how and what'?

If it were me, I would first go back to the Rega Sub, then try removing the 3mm acrylic mat, try the Rega 'soft felt mat', and finally the orange section damping on the Rega Sub. Then sit and think and work out, 'how, what and where to go'? . . . thats the method of CJSF . . . fussy bu**er, understand whats going on.

CJSF

PS, whilst doing the above, I would be evaluating the suposed Rega Sub Platter 'over speed', do you prefer it that way?

 

[respe]

try playing some piano, anything that has note sustain. To give yourself the best chance of hearing the changes, pop the old subplatter back on, play a couple of tracks. Fit the new sub platter, and play the same tracks. You are in for treat when the glider is fitted. Try 2mm shim, it worked for me.

 

[DandyCobalt]

Just heard from Peter that the Benz Glider is already in stock....a lot quicker than I'd expected from what I'd heard about Benz - so good news. Hopefully will have it fitted very soon - I'll post pics and thoughts asap.

 

[CJSF]

I would agree, the 2mm shim is a good starting point . . . something that bugs me on the 'Inspire TT' . . . One presumes the geometry is worked out in a similar way to Rega, logical using Rega parts, especially with the fixed tone arm? So the platter height to plinth should be the same, then we slap a 3mm acrylic mat on top of a 25mm acrylic platter making it effectively 28mm thick. We are chasing a 6mm discrepancy at the arm base?

I was under the impression, acrylic platter were best used bear? So are things at the right starting height with or without the 3mm mat, is there any sonic difference with and without the acrylic mat? If so is the difference because of the change in VTA or the way the 'platter/acrylic mat' work together? I though 3mm platter mats were for use on no acrylic platters on various TT's, giving them an acrylic sound?

I see issues that need to be clarified with the manufacturer, who may go along with Regas thinking that VTA is unimportant, opens a whole new (old?) can of worms in my mind.

I think I might leave the ISOplat in place Dandy, remove the 3mm acrylic mat and see what you have SQ wise? Before you back track?

All a bit confusing I'm afraid??? I have just checked the height of the bear glass platter top surface, it is nominally 25mm to the plinth . . . I'm wondering if allowances have been made, had a look at your pics, can’t see clearly enough?

CJSF

 

[chebby]

So the platter height to plinth should be the same, then we slap a 3mm acrylic mat on top of a 25mm acrylic platter making it effectively 28mm thick.

The Inspire Hi-fi acrylic platter is 23mm thick. (I have just checked details on their shop.)

 

[CJSF]

So the platter height to plinth should be the same, then we slap a 3mm acrylic mat on top of a 25mm acrylic platter making it effectively 28mm thick.

The Inspire Hi-fi acrylic platter is 23mm thick. (I have just checked details on their shop.)

I stand corrected . . . allows for 2mm clearance, tells me the bear platter height is the same as my Rega, as one would expect +2mm for the felt mat (3mm for the acrylic), so we are chasing a nominal 4-6mm. . . . probably the 2mm shim will work out about right??? Perhaps wont need any shims if used nude . . . ?????

Still have a '?' on the need for the acrylic mat compare with nude or a 2mm felt? Hense the sugestion to have a listen?

CJSF

 

[DandyCobalt]

Sounds like I'm making the right move by getting the Benz Glider professionally installed by Peter ?

It looks really fragile, so happy not to make any costly mistakes through lack of experience.

 

[CJSF]

Sounds like I'm making the right move by getting the Benz Glider professionally installed by Peter ?

It looks really fragile, so happy not to make any costly mistakes through lack of experience.

Hi Mate, sorry if its getting to sound complicated . . . its this VTA thing, some say nah, dont bother, I'm in the group that sees it as vital. Have you tried listening with and without the acrylic mat? Also dig out your 2mm Rega felt and try that in place of the 3mm acrylic. I'm not saying it will be bette or worse, perhaps different . . . its a knowledge/experiance trip in my book . . .

CJSF

 

[airliebird]

I went with the new platter upgrade for mine.Its a new second option platter which is thicker , heavier and has a lip on the top to make it easier for romoving the record from the platter. I have nothing but praise for Inspire and the quality of there product.a great British success. Buying direct obviously makes the product cheaper , if I the only option was to go to a dealer then the turntable would be out of my price range.

 

[CJSF]

I went with the new platter upgrade for mine.Its a new second option platter which is thicker , heavier and has a lip on the top to make it easier for romoving the record from the platter. I have nothing but praise for Inspire and the quality of there product.a great British success. Buying direct obviously makes the product cheaper , if I the only option was to go to a dealer then the turntable would be out of my price range.

Airliebird, that looks like the extra acrilmat on there? Have you tried it with out, direct on the Acrylic platter, or replaced it with the original Rega felt mat?

CJSF

 

[airliebird]

I went with the new platter upgrade for mine.Its a new second option platter which is thicker , heavier and has a lip on the top to make it easier for romoving the record from the platter. I have nothing but praise for Inspire and the quality of there product.a great British success. Buying direct obviously makes the product cheaper , if I the only option was to go to a dealer then the turntable would be out of my price range.

Airliebird, that looks like the extra acrilmat on there? Have you tried it with out, direct on the Acrylic platter, or replaced it with the original Rega felt mat?

CJSF

What do you mean by extra acrilmat CJSF ? I thought they only produced one. I have not tried playing without the mat directly onto the platter and I dont have the felt mat any more. I didnt replace the platter when I had the plinth and arm done so used the acrilmat on the glass platter, the conclusion for me was that the sound reproduction all around was a huge improvement than with the felt mat. Of course the plinth would have had a huge bearing on that too.

 

[CJSF]

What do you mean by extra acrilmat CJSF ? I thought they only produced one. I have not tried playing without the mat directly onto the platter and I dont have the felt mat any more. I didnt replace the platter when I had the plinth and arm done so used the acrilmat on the glass platter, the conclusion for me was that the sound reproduction all around was a huge improvement than with the felt mat. Of course the plinth would have had a huge bearing on that too.

The theory is that Acrylic platters can be used as they are, no mat of any kind required? This was how it was when the first Acrylic patter came out on the 'Pink Triangle'.

I was under the impression that the 'Acrilmat' and other makes of a similar type and thickness were designed for use with, as you say, glass or metal platters . . . ? I was wondering if you had tried the acrylic platter nude (no Acrilmat) and how it sounded?

I am certainly not trying to put any one or any product down. I believe the 'Inspire' approach to be a good one, which, at some time I might follow? I'm just a bit confused with the 'mat' thing? . . . plus I like to know how things work and evolve. Its a long time ago since those first days of Pink Triangle, things do move on????

CJSF

 

[airliebird]

What do you mean by extra acrilmat CJSF ? I thought they only produced one. I have not tried playing without the mat directly onto the platter and I dont have the felt mat any more. I didnt replace the platter when I had the plinth and arm done so used the acrilmat on the glass platter, the conclusion for me was that the sound reproduction all around was a huge improvement than with the felt mat. Of course the plinth would have had a huge bearing on that too.

The theory is that Acrylic platters can be used as they are, no mat of any kind required? This was how it was when the first Acrylic patter came out on the 'Pink Triangle'.

I was under the impression that the 'Acrilmat' and other makes of a similar type and thickness were designed for use with, as you say, glass or metal platters . . . ? I was wondering if you had tried the acrylic platter nude (no Acrilmat) and how it sounded?

I am certainly not trying to put any one or any product down. I believe the 'Inspire' approach to be a good one, which, at some time I might follow? I'm just a bit confused with the 'mat' thing? . . . plus I like to know how things work and evolve. Its a long time ago since those first days of Pink Triangle, things do move on????

CJSF

I will give it a try and let you know. On the inspire hi fi site all the quest turntables are shown with the acrilmat so I assume that it is an integral part of the upgrade.

I have also had a look at the HI FI World review of the Eclipse turntable made by Inspire and though the original first page picture shows the acrylic platter bare later photos show the turntable with a acrilmat on.

 

[DandyCobalt]

Just tried without the Acrimat, so directly on the acrylic platter - Beck's "Sea Change" (Mofi). Lots of acoustic guitar string sounds but a good bass underneath.

Firstly, the disc appears warped without the Acrimat ( all times with the Inspire Puck). Quite markedly so. It is flat on the Acrimat.

Sound without the Acrimat seem much narrower, and less defined. Much better with the Acrimat - a fuller, broader sound and better definition across the board.

 

[CJSF]

What do you mean by extra acrilmat CJSF ? I thought they only produced one. I have not tried playing without the mat directly onto the platter and I dont have the felt mat any more. I didnt replace the platter when I had the plinth and arm done so used the acrilmat on the glass platter, the conclusion for me was that the sound reproduction all around was a huge improvement than with the felt mat. Of course the plinth would have had a huge bearing on that too.

The theory is that Acrylic platters can be used as they are, no mat of any kind required? This was how it was when the first Acrylic patter came out on the 'Pink Triangle'.

I was under the impression that the 'Acrilmat' and other makes of a similar type and thickness were designed for use with, as you say, glass or metal platters . . . ? I was wondering if you had tried the acrylic platter nude (no Acrilmat) and how it sounded?

I am certainly not trying to put any one or any product down. I believe the 'Inspire' approach to be a good one, which, at some time I might follow? I'm just a bit confused with the 'mat' thing? . . . plus I like to know how things work and evolve. Its a long time ago since those first days of Pink Triangle, things do move on????

CJSF

I will give it a try and let you know. On the inspire hi fi site all the quest turntables are shown with the acrilmat so I assume that it is an integral part of the upgrade.

I have also had a look at the HI FI World review of the Eclipse turntable made by Inspire and though the original first page picture shows the acrylic platter bare later photos show the turntable with a acrilmat on.

As I said Airliebird. things do move on . . . sometimes for the good, sometimes its simply 'guilding the lily':? One suspect you might hear 'different'? Thats one of the things with modern hifi, different is not always better . . . but you may individually 'prefer' one way or the other.

I have experienced this with my own experiments with Acrylic platters. As my system is, modified P5 and Sumiko cartridge, it sounds better to me still with the glass platter and original mat. A 20mm Acrylic platter moved everything forward and 'brighter', I dont like it that way, preferring the laid back sound of the glass platter and the metal sub platter which turns at a true 'thirty three and one third' rpm . . . Its my personal choice, others will prefer the more lively acrylic sound.

Now if I went the Inspire rebuild rout, this may all change . . . but it always worries me, moving up sometimes is a sideways move to 'different', and different can cost big bucks? This was an experience I had with speaker cable recently, you may have seen the post. Cable costing £46pm, auditioned at home in my system, sounded good, but so did my humble £5pm cable. Improvements in the expensive cable were cancelled by better in the cheap cable, in the end I declared it a draw . . . and saved myself £800!

TT can be even more fickle according to; arm, cartridge, Acrilmat, power supply, belt type, sub platter, main platter, I've experienced all sorts of peculiarities on my P5, some I was not prepared for, having to back track?

Thanks for your reply, I will be interested in you results . . . CJSF :type:

 

[CJSF]

Just tried without the Acrimat, so directly on the acrylic platter - Beck's "Sea Change" (Mofi). Lots of acoustic guitar string sounds but a good bass underneath.

Firstly, the disc appears warped without the Acrimat ( all times with the Inspire Puck). Quite markedly so. It is flat on the Acrimat.

Sound without the Acrimat seem much narrower, and less defined. Much better with the Acrimat - a fuller, broader sound and better definition across the board.

Thanks Dandy, be interesting to see if Airliebird hears it the same way? I think he has a slightly diferent plater (heavy with lip?) and I'm not sure if he has the original Rega sub platter or a metal replacement?

I might even try the Acrimat on my P5 with original glass platter . . . I might find the halfway house acrylic works for me??? :?

Warped??? . . . does the nude acrylic platter have a cut out for the label?

CJSF

 

[DandyCobalt]

The acrylic platter doesn't have a cut out for the label - probably why record plays warped.

 

[airliebird]

The acrylic platter doesn't have a cut out for the label - probably why record plays warped.

As you can see from my photo below my version of the Quest platter upgrade does have a label cut out and also a cut out rim which helps removing your vinyl off the platter.I assume then that this was produced for direct vinyl placement onto the platter without a mat. I have been using the platter with an acrimat since buying it so I have spent the last few days going through a few records in my collection comparing the sound with and without the acrimat.

First LP up was Yazoo - You and Me Both and the first track Nobodys Diary. With the acrimat the sound projected has always been well balanced and had the perception of being a deep rich sound with a well controlled bass very enjoyable to listen too. Playing the vinyl direct onto the platter changed the whole imaging of the recording though with Allison Moyet's voice seeming to move forward away from the rest of the recording which was a big improvement for me as you could now hear her voice more clearly and defined, picking up the difference in her breathing when starting and stopping different lines and notes.I was impressed.

Next up was Steve Earle 180gm copy of You Will Never Get Out Of This World Alive. Again this showed some improvement in imaging when playing direct on the platter but it was not as clear as the Yazoo LP. Not using the acrimat seemed to just give more seperation in different instruments and helped in drawing out more acoustics from guitar strings that were not there with the mat on. It was a very close call which I liked the most, with or without the mat. With the mat on bass was fuller though.

Lastly was The Farms Sparticus LP and the track All Together Now. Again sounding fantastic with the the mat on, at high volume the bass rich and controlled with the percussion drawing me in getting my fingers and feet tapping. Out of the three this LP sounded by far the best on the acrimat without it it sounded very tinny and did not control or project the bass at all.

After a week I am still a bit confused :doh: the Yazoo LP had a marked improvement without the mat, The Steve Earle was not that clear either way and The Farm LP played on the acrilmat was far better. I am going to get a mate around for a second opinion.

 

[CJSF]

The acrylic platter doesn't have a cut out for the label - probably why record plays warped.

As you can see from my photo below my version of the Quest platter upgrade does have a label cut out and also a cut out rim which helps removing your vinyl off the platter.I assume then that this was produced for direct vinyl placement onto the platter without a mat. I have been using the platter with an acrimat since buying it so I have spent the last few days going through a few records in my collection comparing the sound with and without the acrimat.

First LP up was Yazoo - You and Me Both and the first track Nobodys Diary. With the acrimat the sound projected has always been well balanced and had the perception of being a deep rich sound with a well controlled bass very enjoyable to listen too. Playing the vinyl direct onto the platter changed the whole imaging of the recording though with Allison Moyet's voice seeming to move forward away from the rest of the recording which was a big improvement for me as you could now hear her voice more clearly and defined, picking up the difference in her breathing when starting and stopping different lines and notes.I was impressed.

Next up was Steve Earle 180gm copy of You Will Never Get Out Of This World Alive. Again this showed some improvement in imaging when playing direct on the platter but it was not as clear as the Yazoo LP. Not using the acrimat seemed to just give more seperation in different instruments and helped in drawing out more acoustics from guitar strings that were not there with the mat on. It was a very close call which I liked the most, with or without the mat. With the mat on bass was fuller though.

Lastly was The Farms Sparticus LP and the track All Together Now. Again sounding fantastic with the the mat on, at high volume the bass rich and controlled with the percussion drawing me in getting my fingers and feet tapping. Out of the three this LP sounded by far the best on the acrimat without it it sounded very tinny and did not control or project the bass at all.

After a week I am still a bit confused :doh: the Yazoo LP had a marked improvement without the mat, The Steve Earle was not that clear either way and The Farm LP played on the acrilmat was far better. I am going to get a mate around for a second opinion.

Hi Airliebird, thats a very interesting assessment, interesting to note the second option platter has the label cut out . . . indicates a thinking at Inspire? I note, you are still using the original Rega sub platter, is it damped? If not, damping or partial damping might help? The other thing that might be of consideration is the VTA which has changed by 3mm making the rear of the arm that much higher:?

The third album sounds like it is affected most, possible the VTA is to high indicated by the thinner sound?

Its a pity you have not got the original 'Rega felt mat' . . . your friend has not got one by any chance???

What you have shown is just how divers these things are, how compromises have to be made and the fact that much of what is best in your system is very personal.

Personally I'd be looking at VTA and stylus down-force. VTA first, then tiny, tiny changes in the down-force, finally bias might be worth looking at as well? . . . However you were happy with the 'Acrimat' . . . were you happy enough?

Other thought, have you tried it 'with and without' the puck?

CJSF

 

[DandyCobalt]

I'm in the middle of replacing the wiring through the tonearm with Incognito Silver replacement kit.

http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Incognito_Tonearm_Pure_Silver_Re-wire_Kit_For_Rega_Arms_INCOG-SIL

Original wire removed.

New wiring installed up to the point of having to solder each of four bare silver wires to the cartridge connectors. But the silver wires through the tonearm have no colour coded insulation -just bare fine silver wires. The instructions say to check which is which with a multimeter.

Using probes (not crocodile clips) on the multimeter, I can't identify which wire goes to l/r "centre pins" and which to l/r "screen".

Is it right that the silver wires should not have insulation around them, and therefore how are they insulated from each other through the tonearm?

Are the wires actually coated in an invisible insulation already (teflon maybe?) so they don't neeed plastic, or does an oxide form that doesn't conduct? (Just guesssing here)

I can't find any info on the interweb, and I need to get this sorted. Any help most welcome. Perhaps I need to buy some crocodile clips from Maplin tomorrow and all will be fine?

 

[DandyCobalt]

All sorted - new wired installed. Turntable set up and all working absolutely great!!

For a start, before the wire upgrade, I had a constant low level grounding hum coming out of the left channel (mainly). After the wire change, no hum at all - this must be due to the dedicated ground wire that now connects to the phono amp.

Also, the sound seems to have been given more "air".

Anyway - very happy that I have rewired a turntable, including soldering and heat-shrinking the cable colour codes (I held the solder iron a few millimetres away from the plastic and that did the job really well.)

Now ready for the Benz Glider moving coil cartridge that will be fitted by Peter from Alternative Audio on the 25th April.

 

[CJSF]

All sorted - new wired installed. Turntable set up and all working absolutely great!!

For a start, before the wire upgrade, I had a constant low level grounding hum coming out of the left channel (mainly). After the wire change, no hum at all - this must be due to the dedicated ground wire that now connects to the phono amp.

Also, the sound seems to have been given more "air".

Anyway - very happy that I have rewired a turntable, including soldering and heat-shrinking the cable colour codes (I held the solder iron a few millimetres away from the plastic and that did the job really well.)

Now ready for the Benz Glider moving coil cartridge that will be fitted by Peter from Alternative Audio on the 25th April.

Sounds interesting Dandy . . . making me wonder, a low cost upgrade I think???

I had the hum problem when I fited the retro PSU to my P5 . . . dealer had no cure . . . and I could hear no improvement over the 'white belt' upgrade, so I saved myself cash; £20 for the white belt compared to £150 for the PSU.

Counting off the days to the 25th . . . ?

CJSF