If the CD medium is so inferior.......

[Tony_R]

There's a lot of talk on this forum about how inferior the CD medium is compared to streaming music from a hard drive.

At least that's the impression one gets, due to the many posts speaking of improved sound quality when streaming, compared to playing directly from a CD player..

So...

In this case, we should all be streaming our DVD / Blue Ray videos from hard disk media too, given that retrieving data from a DVD / Blue Ray disk is infinitely more challenging for a player, compared to retrieving information from a CD.

Consider this image comparing data densities:

(image by acknowledgement of http://www.timefordvd.com)

Now, blue ray has a pit size of 0.15 microns, which is 2 times smaller than a DVD..

So if CD is as inferior as is claimed - then this suggests that Blue Ray / DVD discs should be practically unplayable..

If CD playback is so poor direct from a CD player, then my guess is we only have the manufacturers of CD players to blame for this surely?

And also - surely Blue Ray / DVD players should then offer a superior data retrieval rate compared to CD players?

So then using a BD / DVD player with an external DAC, should yield equal sound quality to the streaming / DAC solution?

 

[Anonymous]

CD players use a 780nm wavelength laser, DVD players a 650nm and Blu-ray a 405nm (blue!) laser allowing them each to retrieve the data carried on their format respectively.ÿ

 

[plastic penguin]

Over the nine months I've been contributing on this forum I don't think there's been too many complaints about CD quality. You have to accept for all cd's virtues, it is very different from other formats. I believe that's where the comments generated from.

 

[Anonymous]

Well my thoughts are -
Since 1988 have had a highly modified (by Russ Andrews) Meridian 207 CD/Pre-Amp which I don't use anymore because CD's put losslesly onto a hard drive sound identical!
The signal source is just the same. A good pre amp is essential as well, mine has Burr Brown DAC's in it, and they are regarded as the best.
Have been using them for many years in my equipment.

With the way Hard Drives have rapidly dropped in price large ones are being fitted into various types of equipment and it is growing so fast the numbers who stream music nowadays off broadband internet.
Personally I still prefer to buy the CD and rip it to HD, I just think it sounds more musical.

So Yes to a high end CD player/pre-amp, (wouldn't spend money on one anymore though) and yes to Burr Brown DAC's and lossless music on Hard drive.
The thing that is important to me is listening to the music, I would rather do something else than listen to music played in poor quality.

 

[Anonymous]

trevor79: I just think it sounds more musical.

Assuming you have done a bit-perfect rip to your hard drive, the computer will always read and send this bit-perfect rip to the DAC for conversion. CD players have to do error correction on the fly and can therefore be inaccurate replacing missing bits with 'love' and 'soul' as some people seem to think. People who trumpet the HDD solution obviously prefer accuracy.

 

[chebby]

I started a lengthy and detailed and impassioned defence of playing music via my computer and a DAC but got tired at the prospect of arguing it all again so instead played some Roy Orbison tracks ripped losslessly from an MFSL gold CD which sounded wonderful.

Nice coffee and a fudge brownie and great music beats trying to convert the unconvertable.

The only thing I can say is try it. Get a decent DAC from your dealer to try out at home, or take your laptop to the dealer - with some losslessly ripped music - and see if the sound convinces you.

Nothing to lose if you have a computer already. iTunes is free, and you already have some CDs.

Even our local Richer Sounds confirmed (to a friend) that if he did not like his DacMagic he could take it back with no quibble.

Better that people try it out for themselves instead of pronouncing on how good or not they THINK it is. At least we will be getting qualified opinions rather than emotive responses.

 

[Anonymous]

Into a modern DAC a CD transport and a computer will sound about the same.

The latter is potentially better due to the "perfect rip" than can be achieved on a computer.

The key advantage is that the computer sources are much cheaper, and the interfaces are better too.

This explains why CD is dead for all but a few cottage HiFi companies who serve old-fashioned people.

 

[Anonymous]

Eddie Pound:This explains why CD is dead for all but a few cottage HiFi companies who serve old-fashioned people.

Not quite dead! you generally need to CD in first place to get the lossless rip surley? i havnt seen a great selection of lossless material availablr for download! and even if this improves i would personaly still want a hard copy to do with as i choose.

 

[Tony_R]

Eddie Pound:

....... This explains why CD is dead for all but a few cottage HiFi companies who serve old-fashioned people.

Or those who have yet to find a desirable way of playing music from a computer....

I have a Roku Soundbridge which although works well, I struggle to see the display even on the largest text setting.

I really don't want to combine my AV system with my HiFi just yet - I've yet to find an AV system (that I can afford) that sounds as good as my current HiFi setup.

So for now that leaves me with the good old CD player - just call me old fashioned..

I'm 48 yrs old btw, so not over the hill yet lol!

Incidentally, I work in IT for a living, and I did once have about 6 servers running here at home - although I have now trimmed that down to two (and a NAS) - so it's not like I'm a technophobe or have an aversion to computers or anything....

 

[ElectroMan]

Eddie Pound:
This explains why CD is dead for all but a few cottage HiFi companies who serve old-fashioned people.

So those who still use vinyl must be real dinosaurs!

 

[chebby]

ElectroMan:Eddie Pound:
This explains why CD is dead for all but a few cottage HiFi companies who serve old-fashioned people.

So those who still use vinyl must be real dinosaurs!

It is possible to enjoy both vinyl and computer/server based music. Analogue at it's best AND digital at it's best. Sounds good to me

The Dinosaurs were around in one form or another for about 170 million years and (arguably) some are still with us in the form of birds. Who are we (a jumped-up ape with our less than impressive 2 million years on the planet) to invoke Dinosaurs when we talk about failure to adapt?

Lets see how well we would adapt if the atmosphere was messed up by gases from 1.5 million cubic kilometres of flood basalt erupting for 33,000 years non-stop partnered by a rock the size of Manhattan slamming into the earth at 95 miles per second with a force of 10,000,000,000,000 (ten trillion) tons of TNT or about 2 million of the largest thermonuclear warheads ever made!

 

[ElectroMan]

Actually, I was being sarcastic about the original post.

And I agree totally with your points about the dinosaurs. As for birds well, I have two African Grey parrots and I can certainly confirm that they have the look of velociraptors about them at times ...

 

[chebby]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/151/416414142_1df95e1c6a.jpg

 

[matthewpiano]

CD isn't inferior, and its nowhere near dead. It may never reach the heady sales figures it once did, but its got plenty of life in it yet.

I have no doubt that lossless files can sound just as good because I've heard how well it can work. I'm quite open to adding to my system in such a way. However, I'll be staying a 'dinosaur' for the majority of my music, whether its using vinyl or CD. Why? Because I like physical formats. I like picking a disc out, loading it up, and having the booklet and notes to hand as I'm listening. I like not having to look at any sort of screen. I like not having to use a mouse for everything. I like being able to give music as a real present rather than a file or download voucher.

 

[Anonymous]

'It's all about the music' Couldn't agree more.

I have a Hand built PC and a top of the range Sony Vaio but I don't use either for my music. Both are wireless, as is the PS3.
I appreciate however that many do.

I also have a Apple iPod Classic, along with the Apple Docking station (which I use in the bedroom) and the iPod in the car as well.
Whilst both are good my AV system blows them out of the water!
And with the mods to it (details I have posted) is on a par with End Hi Fi equipment (I'm not talking Cyrus gear either) much better than that.

Download CD's losslessly onto a Sony 970RDR (Now around £280)A full-featured DVD Recorder with 250G Hard Drive, Integrated Dual Digital and Analog Tuner, and photo and music management put through Burr Brown Dac's and you have music as good as you can get at any price.

It's all about the music.

 

[matthewpiano]

I have the latest version of the Sony recorder, the RDR-HXD995, and I sell huge numbers of them (I work in a Sony Centre). Its a great machine but, having heard it through all sorts of set-ups and through several different DACs, it really doesn't come close to my Denon DCD1500AE, or indeed Sony's own CDP-XA1200ES, for music playback. Its absolutely brilliant at what it does, but I can't agree with you about its musical abilities. It will easily equal most £250 CD players, but move up to £500 and its a whole different ball game.

However, that is only my opinion and if it works for you that is all that matters.

 

[Anonymous]

Morning Matthew, that's interesting.
You do mean put onto its hard drive at its highest quality rip rate and played off that don't you, not just playing the CD on the machine. (which doesn't sound good)

I have a totally clean Mains supply feed into my system which does make a huge difference, (lowering the noise floor.)
Along with Burr Brown DAC's in the AV amp (standard) and SCHOTTY DIODES (put in by me) in the 970. So one is only using the information on the Hard Drive off the Sony 970.

Its the DAC's that processes the music, as long as they are sent ALL of the information they will do there job, some DAC's are better than others.

Yes it works for me very well, I discovered just how good it did by chance/curiosity when I ripped a CD onto it just to see.
To say I was surprised is an understatement!

 

[fatboyslimfast]

matthewpiano:However, I'll be staying a 'dinosaur' for the majority of my music, whether its using vinyl or CD. Why? Because I like physical formats.

Now, y'see I'm a bit different there. I love playing vinyl for the "event" that it becomes, the album artwork (esp if gatefold) and am happy to trapse upstairs to get albums, but if it is a choice of going upstairs to get a CD or reaching for the itunes remote, then there is no contest. The remote gets the nod every time.

I will admit that I only buy LPs or CDs though - no downloads unless lossless.

Digital is digital is digital for me, but analogue is a wholly different thing. In my system less detailed, but strangely far more compelling than digital to listen to...but both have their place.

 

[chebby]

I agree with you fbsf.

When it comes to the whole 'hands-on' thing then vinyl LPs win every time.

I even love to watch an LP being played on a turntable.

CDs and their covers are nasty, small, easily broken, have squinty little typefaces and have disc retaining lugs that self destruct. There is zero appeal in putting a CD into a slot or a tray (no more than a DVD anyway) and the artwork has a very mean little area to occupy.

Yep. Digital should be heard and not seen.

 

[matthewpiano]

trevor79:Morning Matthew, that's interesting.
You do mean put onto its hard drive at its highest quality rip rate and played off that don't you, not just playing the CD on the machine. (which doesn't sound good)

I have a totally clean Mains supply feed into my system which does make a huge difference, (lowering the noise floor.)
Along with Burr Brown DAC's in the AV amp (standard) and SCHOTTY DIODES (put in by me) in the 970. So one is only using the information on the Hard Drive off the Sony 970.

Its the DAC's that processes the music, as long as they are sent ALL of the information they will do there job, some DAC's are better than others.

Yes it works for me very well, I discovered just how good it did by chance/curiosity when I ripped a CD onto it just to see.
To say I was surprised is an understatement!

Yes, I do mean ripping to the hard drive at highest quality, rather than using the 995 as a CD transport. It may, as you point out, be the Schotty Diodes and your choice of DAC that make the difference in your set-up. However, my machine is only a few weeks old and, even working in the industry, I can't afford to invalidate my warranty.

Glad the machine is proving such a success.

 

[matthewpiano]

fatboyslimfast:matthewpiano:However, I'll be staying a 'dinosaur' for the majority of my music, whether its using vinyl or CD. Why? Because I like physical formats.

Now, y'see I'm a bit different there. I love playing vinyl for the "event" that it becomes, the album artwork (esp if gatefold) and am happy to trapse upstairs to get albums, but if it is a choice of going upstairs to get a CD or reaching for the itunes remote, then there is no contest. The remote gets the nod every time.

I will admit that I only buy LPs or CDs though - no downloads unless lossless.

Digital is digital is digital for me, but analogue is a wholly different thing. In my system less detailed, but strangely far more compelling than digital to listen to...but both have their place.

I agree with you entirely about vinyl. Its still the most musically rewarding way to listen to music.

In relation to what you say about CDs, I have a huge shelving unit packed full of CDs right next to my hi-fi so its pretty convenient for me. I still find playing a CD to be an 'event' and, now CD players have got so good, I love the format.

Each to his own!

 

[the record spot]

I'd disagree that digital is digital is digital as previously suggested. I think if you get a well mastered disc, digital can become a little nearer (and better IMO) to analogue. I've been picking up some pre-remastered era discs as well as re-listening to some of my own early purchases again. Sound quality is unbelievably good.

I opened up a copy of Elvis Costello's "Ten Bloody Mary's and Ten How's Your Fathers" yesterday - turns out it's a Nimbus mastere disc which I'd totally forgotten. Not played it for years and I'd forgotten how good it sounded!

So digital might be digital, but not all things are created equal in that domain. It's capable of some real quality, but check the mastering if you can!

 

[Anonymous]

If music was just about music quality and its reproduction then the best sounding format would win.......however

Its more than just that and convenience, collectability, physical presence, appearence and obvoiusly the quality of reproduction all jostle for a position in each and every music lovers individual set of requirements.

For me vinyl looked great....great artwork , great collectability and physical presence( Those turntables just are almost a work of art!)...However the background noise, scratches, pops static all invading quite tracks I for one just cannot live with and cannot mentally filter out regardless of the "vinyl analogue sound"

For me cd has the right mix of attributes and ticks just about all my set of boxes.I like the collectivity aspect like vinyl, I like the sound quality including the lack of sound and I like the traditional library type storage .

Lossless streaming from computer, via the internet or similar may well be the future and may well be the best sound but for me it will never fulfill the physical presence of the actual real recording and artwork on vinyl or cd.

Like vinyl , cd sales will drop and I do not doubt it will in many aspects become like vinyl.... however I do not think it will die.....it will become a minority music source supplied by specialist suppliers and it will survive side by side with them.

The real question maybe should be "Will real Hi-Fi survive" . Sound quality appears to come second to convenience in an awful lot of peoples minds these days and you only have to see an i-pod connected to a pair of matchbox sized speakers to realise this is true. Even in my youth and the 70's such a set up quality wise would have been laughed at....now its the norm and a recent conversation with the owner of a long established hi-fi shop has left me in no doubt that an awful lot of hi-fi shops will go to the wall in a sea of mediocre sound.

This was brought home to me when I was unable to find a certain recording on cd and have found it only to be currently availabe on download. I will keep searching and when I do find it and obtain it I will be mega happy.

 

[Anonymous]

"Yes, I do mean ripping to the hard drive at highest quality, rather than using the 995 as a CD transport. It may, as you point out, be the Schotty Diodes and your choice of DAC that make the difference in your set-up. However, my machine is only a few weeks old and, even working in the industry, I can't afford to invalidate my warranty.

Glad the machine is proving such a success."

Thanks for the clarification. My machine (bought 7/08) thinking back was originally not as nice sounding as my Meridian 207.
I first replaced the diode and ran the mains through a Tacima block which brought it up to the Meridian in sound quality.

Interestingly it hardly made any difference to the 207, but that runs with its separate (from the pre amp) power supply and classic powerkord.

It also made a big improvement to the 875, giving a much cleaner signal path through to the speakers with reduction in the Mains interaction.
Getting hold of a couple of those BT mains conditioning units recently made my system sound like it was playing Vinyl.
It just goes to show how cheaper equipment can punch so far above its weight when its signal stages are fed with a stable supply.
After all little has changed over the years with circuit design.

 

[Tony_R]

Referring back to the original post - the point I was trying to make is this:

If a DVD / Blue Ray player is able to read dics that have even smaller pits with (obviously) great success - why shouldn't a CD player be able to do the same?

After all, the technology is practically identical.

Yet very few people complain about poor picture quality, lost fragments of pictures etc. etc. because surely - if the DVD / BR player was unable to read the media reliably, this would surely result in poor picture quality.

So... does this mean that CD player manufacturers have become complacent, and are "throwing" out a barely fit for purpose product?

Certainly, if you compare the very first players with what we have today.. even the early budget players had good quality all metal mechanisms - and weren't they also heavy! So it would be interesting to have a 1980's player combined with "new millenium" DAC technology. I reckon that would beat anything...