Makes for very interesting reading. The Behringer A500 - is that 200£ approx - any uk stockists? . I know it doesn't look fantastic - but it looks well worth a punt on "sound per pound"
tonky
tonky
The A500 is a phenomenom, one of Behringers earliest products, it has been in continuous production for over 10 years. The retail (street) price is very cheap, especially considering it is a conventional A/B amplifier with a linear power supply.
I hesitate to say it is a 'loss leader', but the production costs amortised over a 10yr production run must be minimal, which makes the A500 pretty much unique. It is often given as an example of good low cost amplifiers but it is genuinely hard to think of anything else that falls into the same category.
For me, the issue remains the cost of the power supply, which I and many others consider pivotal to the performance of amplifiers, it has been suggested that for music reproduction a big power supply is un-necessary due to the transient nature of the music signal.
There is some logic in this argument but it goes against all the empirical data that I have accumulated over many years in and around this business and in this case i think the logic is flawed.
Serious power supplies do make an important difference and they are not cheap, sure some manufacturers overdo the 'bling' and, as with all hi-fi, some of the pricing is ridiculous but my personal view remains that 'good' amplifiers do make a difference in real world systems.
I hesitate to say it is a 'loss leader', but the production costs amortised over a 10yr production run must be minimal, which makes the A500 pretty much unique. It is often given as an example of good low cost amplifiers but it is genuinely hard to think of anything else that falls into the same category.
For me, the issue remains the cost of the power supply, which I and many others consider pivotal to the performance of amplifiers, it has been suggested that for music reproduction a big power supply is un-necessary due to the transient nature of the music signal.
There is some logic in this argument but it goes against all the empirical data that I have accumulated over many years in and around this business and in this case i think the logic is flawed.
Serious power supplies do make an important difference and they are not cheap, sure some manufacturers overdo the 'bling' and, as with all hi-fi, some of the pricing is ridiculous but my personal view remains that 'good' amplifiers do make a difference in real world systems.
tonky said:
The A500 is readily available in the uk, but from music and pro audio dealers, not the usual hi-fi sources.
It is very cheap too, typical price is a very modest £140.
https://www.studiospares.com/Studio-Gear/Power-Amplifiers/Behringer-A500-Amplifier_380160.htm?ne=AQAAAAMAAAAECUJlaHJpbmdlcg==
TrevC
Well-known member
davedotco said:
Hi Dave
What empirical data is that and in what way is the logic flawed? With a toroidal transformer there is very little sag even at the current limit, far less percentage wise that the mains supply tolerance. Using very large electrolytics as most amps do these days will take care of music peaks very comfortably and average out the load. In order to hear a difference you would need to operate the amplifier flat out.
In this case it is the years of experience that I have had in and around the industry. This tells me that it does make a difference.
The logic is only flawed in the sense thar it does not agree with 'my' data, so a poor choice of words on my part.
In fact your logic is pretty solid, I know from testing and measuring amplifiers that musical peaks are much higher than most peple imagine and that average power far less, so your explanation does make good sense.
It does not however match my experience, which I believe to be pretty extensive, I understand your argument and can not argue against it, in theory that is, in the real world........*unknw*
The logic is only flawed in the sense thar it does not agree with 'my' data, so a poor choice of words on my part.
In fact your logic is pretty solid, I know from testing and measuring amplifiers that musical peaks are much higher than most peple imagine and that average power far less, so your explanation does make good sense.
It does not however match my experience, which I believe to be pretty extensive, I understand your argument and can not argue against it, in theory that is, in the real world........*unknw*
TrevC
Well-known member
Call it a 100 watt per channel and it's still a bargain at £140. There's no getting around that.
http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=22
http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=22
Budget integrateds with their 250VA-350VA transformers powering everything onboard are certanly pushing the envelope in transient peakes. Big caps will solve a large transient but if the amp is discharging energy from the caps faster than the rectifier bridge and transformer can catch up, the PSU will sag in such peaks. You may hear it, you may not, depends on application and level of abuse such as speaker load, desired SPL and type of music.
The manufacturer cannot predict what you might do to their amplifier. If they over-eingineer it for all sorts of abuse, it will cost a pretty penny. If they aim at profitable yet VFM budget minded prices, they will average things out by presuming you will listen to Norah Jones through 89dB/8ohm speakers in a small room no louder than 85dB at listening position. If you bought a Rega Brio-R for pumping out D'n'B with 84dB Bowers' in your 50sq.ft. living room at 95dB continuous SPL, the blame is on you.
BTW why is everyone under impressions the A500 is some pillar of endless power for cheap? It is 125W in 8ohms at 1% THD. It weighs 8.8kg, built with lowest bottom of the bin PRC generic components. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they are desperate to throw a party this weekend for cheap.
Those 125W (at clipping, no headroom left) are insufficient for large transient peaks that can go from 10W continous to peak 600W in a split second. This is not a powerfull amplifier by any standard and should be used with its performance margins in mind. It will not power all hi-fi speakers like a boss. Far from it.
Fully regulated power supplies built to last and survive most speakers and most applications do not come cheap.
The manufacturer cannot predict what you might do to their amplifier. If they over-eingineer it for all sorts of abuse, it will cost a pretty penny. If they aim at profitable yet VFM budget minded prices, they will average things out by presuming you will listen to Norah Jones through 89dB/8ohm speakers in a small room no louder than 85dB at listening position. If you bought a Rega Brio-R for pumping out D'n'B with 84dB Bowers' in your 50sq.ft. living room at 95dB continuous SPL, the blame is on you.
BTW why is everyone under impressions the A500 is some pillar of endless power for cheap? It is 125W in 8ohms at 1% THD. It weighs 8.8kg, built with lowest bottom of the bin PRC generic components. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they are desperate to throw a party this weekend for cheap.
Those 125W (at clipping, no headroom left) are insufficient for large transient peaks that can go from 10W continous to peak 600W in a split second. This is not a powerfull amplifier by any standard and should be used with its performance margins in mind. It will not power all hi-fi speakers like a boss. Far from it.
Fully regulated power supplies built to last and survive most speakers and most applications do not come cheap.
Hi Vladimir and davedotco (and anyone else who wants to answer this specifically).
Would you consider Icon Audio ST40 MKIIm at £1700.00 to be a well engineered amplifier, and is it worth spending that sort on money? What solid state amplifiers would perform the same/similar but perhaps cost much less?
Would you consider Icon Audio ST40 MKIIm at £1700.00 to be a well engineered amplifier, and is it worth spending that sort on money? What solid state amplifiers would perform the same/similar but perhaps cost much less?
We are talking what makes some amplifiers better than others. Build quality and application range both factor prices. The A500 completely represents this logic because it trades build quality for a slightly wider application range and very low price due to economy of scale. You can't do EoS with high build quality. If your amplifier has expensive japanese components, fully regulated PSU, power to deal with 1ohm loads at high SPL in large living rooms, all input facilities and appealing aesthetics, that will certanly not cost 140 quid, even when made by Behringer.
There are no real bargains in business. At best case scenario you get what you paid for.
There are no real bargains in business. At best case scenario you get what you paid for.
Any SS amp from £50 and up will be technically better and sound more accurate. One does not buy 20Wpc £1700 valve amp in 2015 for performance or sound quality. You buy it to stroke your ego (be different), get an exotic experience (sound different) and play with toys for grown-ups (something to fiddle with constantly). If you are at an (st)age where music is becoming boring ritual and you want to enhance it, valves and record players do an excellent job at this with their visual and ritual stimulation.
Would I buy it? Being narcissistic and suffering from OCD, I most certanly would!
Would I buy it? Being narcissistic and suffering from OCD, I most certanly would!
TrevC
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
OK, if you're a bit deaf and keen on powering abnormal impedance loads then you may have to look elswhere, but that's hardly the point. Most amplifiers don't have regulated power supplies by the way.
It's not about being deaf. People, including myself, enjoy loud music. How does one get large, deep and accurate bass out of small boxes (acceptable for domestic application)? You make them acoustic suspension (closed box) and 4 ohms. Not an easy task even for your A500, I asure you. I made more powerfull and better built amps run out of juice under such conditions.
FennerMachine said:
I'm neither of these honorable gentlemen, but my approach is pretty simple:
1. See how much I like the particular amp (say ST40) with my speakers of choice; then...
2. Listen to a variety of amps, up to and including the cost of the amp I'm looking at; then...
3. If it is better sounding (to my ears), than anything else that I've heard up to its price point (and presents decent VFM), I will buy it (if in budget).
Simples
Nb. It is you who is spending the money and you who will have to live with it...so don't let anyone either talk you into something that is not quite right; or indeed out of something that suits your needs/taste.
Native_bon
Well-known member
To put together a system is never easy. The way I see it: First & foremost good power supply to handle dynamic swings. secondly musicality.. boogie factor?... If an amp does this with almost any speaker then am half way there. Speakers with tight bass is a must. NOW LETS BOOGIE...*yahoo*
Edit: People worry too much about tonality & dnt look out for the over all musical message.
Edit: People worry too much about tonality & dnt look out for the over all musical message.
SteveR750
Well-known member
matt49
Well-known member
SteveR750
Well-known member
SteveR750!
What are your thoughts on Icon Audio ST40?
Feel free to say what you think, positive or negative.
What are your thoughts on Icon Audio ST40?
Feel free to say what you think, positive or negative.
matt49
Well-known member
SteveR750 said:
Ah, yes, I see now. My mistake.
The name A500 is a bit, shall we say, "optimistic". But it appears to be the power amp of choice for the "objectivists". Once my switch box has arrived, I think I may give one of its bigger brothers a try.
SteveR750
Well-known member
FennerMachine said:
No idea, never listened to it, but I'd be more inclined to play guitars through it!
TBH at 20W it was never going to appear on my radar. I don't get the valve power thing, on the basis that there are plenty of high power guitar valve amps that do clean really well, why are all of the hi-fi designs so weedy? Appreciate Class A can deliver current when it's required, but that won't drive inefficient boxes loud. One thing that is clear, no SS guitar amp comes close to a valve amp, even if it's twice, even three times the *rated* power. There is nothing like the bloom and punch of valves.
Meantime, this might interest you...
It's 40w 0.15 THD (not sure about other distortion measurements).
My speakers flapped (literally) before it ran out of power.
My speakers flapped (literally) before it ran out of power.
I doubt the floorstanders were the ones being overpowered. I'm curious what other forum members think. Overpowerd speakers or clipping amp?
I think you might be right Vladimir.
Thinking about it again this morning, the amp was turned on full making the cones look like they where going to pop out! This was done to show how far the amp could be turned up, but for anly a few seconds.
So the amp had no more power at that point, but I would not risk driving my speakers to that point with any amplifier. Maybe the ST40 could not control the speakers properly and a more powerful amp could drive them harder but with more control.
The sound whilst this was happening was not unpleasant, as in not nasty distortion, and we could talk/shout over the music, but I would not drive them like that again as something was clearly distorting.
Thinking about it again this morning, the amp was turned on full making the cones look like they where going to pop out! This was done to show how far the amp could be turned up, but for anly a few seconds.
So the amp had no more power at that point, but I would not risk driving my speakers to that point with any amplifier. Maybe the ST40 could not control the speakers properly and a more powerful amp could drive them harder but with more control.
The sound whilst this was happening was not unpleasant, as in not nasty distortion, and we could talk/shout over the music, but I would not drive them like that again as something was clearly distorting.
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