How does the law of diminishing returns apply to DACs?

[Jame5]

I don't think my upgrade path is going to involve a CD player. Therefore, my question is pretty simple: At what price point does the analogue signal produced by a DAC get so near to a perfect representation of a CD quality digital recording (I'm assuming that record companies are going to stick with that for a while) that the law of diminishing returns dictates that further money is spent instead on amplification and speakers?

 

[Anonymous]

When you buy a Rega DAC based on what I heard yesterday...

Not had the chance yet to compare with other DACS as just starting out on the auditioning.

It was brilliant though, I wouldn't be pining to pull out all my boxes of CDs one jot if I go for that or something that sounds as good.

 

[Helmut80]

a very interesting topic that often spills over into the cable war camps. IMO it kicks in fairly early. The difference in the DACS in the £500 plus category are fairly small for very large outlays. Not really worth it unless you have a 10k+ system and the cash to spare.

Bear in mind that:

- I have only heard 2 or three DACs in the 1 - 2.5k price range

- other people may hear more than me

- other people may have more evealing systems than me

 

[CnoEvil]

This question needs to be answered in the context of the price level of the system....everything needs to be in balance.

There is little point in slotting a £8k DCS Debussy Dac into a £1k system.

The best streaming solution I've heard to date, is a Linn Klimax DS at £13k.......which should be used along with other very highend components.

 

[Anonymous]

According to the reviews I've read, there's a sharp drop in the returns/pound curve above the price of the Benchmark DAC1 :silenced:

If you're still with me after that sentence, I'd recommend you to read the latter part of the Stereophile review (measurements and manufacturer's comment). The Audio Critic has done similar measurements and reached the same conclusion. I haven't been able to find similar measurements for newer DACs like Rega's or Arcam's.

 

[paradiziac]

Spend roughly as much on a DAC/streamer as you would a CD player--the D/A conversion itself is fairly simple, but the overall sound quality still depends on the implementation of power supplies and output stages etc.

 

[busb]

I auditioned audiolab's mDAC last December in AudioT. At £600, it's not cheap but in the context of the rest of my system, is about right. I was extremely impressed. I subsequently ordered one but is yet to materialise. I'm currently listening to my music on an AppleTV feeding my Pana plasma's analogue out. The bottom end isn't that well controlled but the level of detail & imaging in most repects is better than my Rotel CDP.

Whatever DAC you buy, make sure it has the facilities you require such as a remote & the necessary inputs at the right bit rates. I haven't heard the Rega but do know it is well thought of. I would be far more inclined to recommend the mDAC if I could listen to one in my own system but so far is little more than Vapourware!

 

[SteveR750]

The Chord QBD76 made the single biggest difference when I was auditioning the M2 vs the K2, the listening order went

K2 -> M2 -> 8xpd/mono x all with a chord peach, then K2 back with the QBD. Stunning sound, bearing in mind it was a £3k upgrade, wherears the Cyrus stuff well over £4k and was not as big a leap in SQ.

 

[sometimesuk]

IMO the law of diminishing returns kicks in at around £1000 mark. I think you get the most bang for your buck at around this price, that doesnt meanit doesnt get better the more you spend!

I bought a naim dac which I'm really happy with.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

I say it is not worth spending more than 2-300 quid on a DAC.

a bit more if you want extra features like volume control/preamp, remote control.

appearance and how much you want to pay for that is your call

 

[Anonymous]

Spend roughly as much on a DAC/streamer as you would a CD player--the D/A conversion itself is fairly simple, but the overall sound quality still depends on the implementation of power supplies and output stages etc.

James5, considering the info provided in your question, I'm sharing the same oppinion as paradiziac said.

If for you with CD the curve was falling at a certain point, chance are that it will be the same price range or so for DAC. System balance always needs to be kept in mind.

 

[Anonymous]

Could it be worth considering the Audiolab 8200CD player? It has digital inputs so can be used as a standalone DAC and you have a decent CDP should you need one.

 

[Overdose]

DACS are relatively low powered devices and not particularly complicated, a competent, solid design can be had for around £200, or less.

More money buys you more functionality and features, and sometimes a fancy badge.

 

[SteveR750]

I challenge anyone not to hear the jump from a £350 dacmagic plus to a £3k Chord. Believe me, and my hearing really is not that sensitive to differences any more so cable upgrades are pointless exercises; the difference was greater than that between a Kandy K2 and a Cyrus PreX / 2 x mono X. I was astounded too, as I had until then believed that DACs are all going to sound pretty much the same, after all, how complicated can such a simple little box be right? How wrong I was.

 

[plastic penguin]

I challenge anyone not to hear the jump from a £350 dacmagic plus to a £3k Chord. Believe me, and my hearing really is not that sensitive to differences any more so cable upgrades are pointless exercises; the difference was greater than that between a Kandy K2 and a Cyrus PreX / 2 x mono X. I was astounded too, as I had until then believed that DACs are all going to sound pretty much the same, after all, how complicated can such a simple little box be right? How wrong I was.

Surely, you'll only hear a big difference if your system is capable enough? I certainly wouldn't even think about a DAC anywhere near the 3k mark, even bearing in mind the cost of the Leema.

 

[paradiziac]

So I guess to summarize, "the point of diminishing returns" varies according to individual circumstances...

 

[chebby]

I challenge anyone not to hear the jump from a £350 dacmagic plus to a £3k Chord. Believe me, and my hearing really is not that sensitive to differences any more so cable upgrades are pointless exercises; the difference was greater than that between a Kandy K2 and a Cyrus PreX / 2 x mono X. I was astounded too, as I had until then believed that DACs are all going to sound pretty much the same, after all, how complicated can such a simple little box be right? How wrong I was.

Surely, you'll only hear a big difference if your system is capable enough? I certainly wouldn't even think about a DAC anywhere near the 3k mark, even bearing in mind the cost of the Leema.

Steve has already explained that the jump in quality - with Chord QBD76 & Kandy2 - was greater than going from Kandy2 + Chordette Peach to Cyrus PreX / 2 x Mono X + Chordette Peach.

He said the difference astounded him, so there is little point in speculating that "...you'll only hear a big difference if your system is capable enough". Obviously it was

 

[Anonymous]

If I may again: Systems balance...

 

[Anonymous]

At what price point does the analogue signal produced by a DAC get so near to a perfect representation of a CD quality digital recording (I'm assuming that record companies are going to stick with that for a while) that the law of diminishing returns dictates that further money is spent instead on amplification and speakers?

Yes, it is about system balance, it depends on how good your amp and speakers are, the law of diminishing returns applies to all components IMHO, cables, stands, the lot. Some top end DACs have different algorithms which have very subtle effects, and you won't tell the difference between them except on a revealing system. Same applies to CD players (since they are a transport and DAC), and same argument could be made to turntables "At what price point does the analogue signal produced by a turntable get so near to a perfect representation of a the original mastered recording".

 

[paradiziac]

..the law of diminishing returns applies to all components IMHO, cables, stands, the lot.

Music too--anyone recently compared Spotify premium v lossless rip of the same CD?

For me lossless is just better (I think), but if you listen to 50 albums a month, a tenner v 500 quid is a no-brainer!

 

[BenLaw]

At what price point does the analogue signal produced by a DAC get so near to a perfect representation of a CD quality digital recording (I'm assuming that record companies are going to stick with that for a while) that the law of diminishing returns dictates that further money is spent instead on amplification and speakers?

From Stereophile's measurements, and to answer the question directly, I would have thought you're near enough a 'perfect' representation as to not want to spend more with the Weiss DAC202 (@ £5k).

 

[Anonymous]

Musiacal fidelity v dac 2, looks like of a tin of sardines, sounds very good.

 

[SteveR750]

I challenge anyone not to hear the jump from a £350 dacmagic plus to a £3k Chord. Believe me, and my hearing really is not that sensitive to differences any more so cable upgrades are pointless exercises; the difference was greater than that between a Kandy K2 and a Cyrus PreX / 2 x mono X. I was astounded too, as I had until then believed that DACs are all going to sound pretty much the same, after all, how complicated can such a simple little box be right? How wrong I was.

Surely, you'll only hear a big difference if your system is capable enough? I certainly wouldn't even think about a DAC anywhere near the 3k mark, even bearing in mind the cost of the Leema.

If you're not ever prepared to listen then you'll ever crawl out of the sea!

You could expect an even bigger benefit with your Pulse, assuming the latter is an improvement over the K2

 

[Jame5]

Just realised I never thanked everyone for their thoughts on this. Thank you! I have ordered the HRT Music Streamer II +. As I am going to use my laptop for all serious listening (sitting in a darkened, sound damped, humidity controlled listening room in outer Mongolia) I didn't want to waste money on any input functionality other than asynchronous USB. In terms of system balance, I am going to stick with my Nait 5i for the time-being so perfection (at a cost of several thousand pounds) can wait! I am hoping to hear an improvement on my iPhone's DAC, even with my current speakers. Talking of which, next will come a long awaited speaker upgrade from my trusty Diamond 10.1s.

 

[nlanks]

Jame5 - did you audition the HRT vs any of the more expensive DACs? If so was there much of a difference to be had (I only need asynchronous USB too, so went same route, but no auditioning).