How do amps sound different?

Gaz37

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I've been thinking about the various terms used for different amps, bright, warm etc and how amp A gives a bigger soundstage than amp B.

How does this happen?

All amps have pretty much the same collection of capacitors, resistors, solder, pcb, wires etc often from the same factory, so how and why can they sound different?
 

ellisdj

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Gaz37 said:
I've been thinking about the various terms used for different amps, bright, warm etc and how amp A gives a bigger soundstage than amp B.

How does this happen?

All amps have pretty much the same collection of capacitors, resistors, solder, pcb, wires etc often from the same factory, so how and why can they sound different?

Bascom King has something quite interesting to say on this subject, I will find the details and post it up, please bear with me
 
I claim no expertise in circuit design but I think you are incorrect in your premise that they all contain similar components. You don't need to spend very long looking at amplifier insides to see that.

The most similar components are speaker terminal and DAC chips, though the latter don't perhaps belong inside an amp anyway!
 

ellisdj

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I would watch all these videos - there are 5 parts to the interview.

Bascom King is an intersting man / engineer.

This is Part 4

This is part 5

Some interesting comments on this subject in these 2 videos and the others. Man is a bit of a Legend hardly anyone knows
 

Blacksabbath25

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Amplifiers do sound all different

they all have different power supply's , different size pots , different heat sinks , different circuitry boards , different construction , what they all have in common with each other is they are all amplifiers that play music . But they are different in there own ways and technology used .
 

Barbapapa

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As hinted at above, on the Harbeth User Group forum there is an extensive discussion about amps. Alan Shaw, the designer of Harbeth speakers and owner of the company, has long propagated that all well-designed amps sound the same. However, he acknowledges that in fact it is very difficult to have a really well-designed amp, as making a good amp is surprisingly difficult. What I've understood is the following (but bear in mind any misinterpretation is mine). Please excuse my mistakes in English, as this is not my native language.

An audio signal is measured in volt and ampere (multiplied becoming watt). Amplifying the signal would entail increasing voltage and/or current. An amp can go up to a limited voltage and can deliver a limited amount of amperage; both may in fact be related in that there is a limit to the total power (wattage) the amp can deliver. If you would attach a simple 8 Ohm resistor you could easily measure this, and I believe this may be the way in which simple measurements about amps power can be made. The amount of amplification (gain) is controlled by the volume pot.

Limitations in power lead immediately to differences in sound: the signal gets clipped, which may cause damage to speakers and amp. But if you do not come within reach of the limits, you would expect that two amps with the same gain would sound exactly the same, as that electronically speaking is the job that the amp has to do.

However, the gain and the limitations of power may not be completely constant. It is possible that an amp (for example) intentionally or unintentionally has different gain or different limits at different frequencies. If an amp has higher gain in the bass region, it will sound differently than a completely neutral amp.

Now the complicated part is that an amp doesn't drive a constant resistor but actual speakers which never offer a constant load. Several hifi journals offer impedance (=Ohm) plots of speakers over the frequency range. While some are quite constant over the range, other speakers may have quite extreme dips, starting from 8 Ohm but going down as deep as 2 Ohm or even 1 Ohm. You may wonder why this matters. If the impedance halves, the amount of power that the speaker sucks out of the amp (or needs to be driven) doubles. Hence an amp that would only need to provide a modest 10 Watt at 8 Ohm, suddenly needs to be able to provide 80 Ohm if the speaker dips to 1 Ohm at a specific frequency. Whether the speaker does go so low depends on the content of the music at that moment. If that frequency is no longer present, the amp has a far easier job.

Finally, there is something called 'damping factor'. This was discussed here recently as well. As far as I understand, a speaker 'stores' the energy (which is the effect of a coil) and then releases a current back to the amp. The amp has to be able to cope with this. The swings in impedance and required power described above have the effect that the amp afterwards has to deal with the current being returned.

All these effects may be easy to control when talking about very small amounts of power, for example with headphones or low listening levels (approx 1 watt). However, if you want to play louder you may easily need 50-100 Watt or even more. It is hard to make an amp that is able to cope with that amount of power and still offer a constant gain during dips, while being able to absorb the current returned to the amp.

As far as I understand it is possible to design an amp that is able to do all this fairly well, but such amps are not as common as one might think and may be very costly, in particular if they offer large amounts of power. Of course you may not need an extremely capable amp if your speaker is a so-called easy load (=doesn't have extreme impedance diips) or if you listen at modest levels.
 

Oldphrt

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Blacksabbath25 said:
Amplifiers do sound all different

they all have different power supply's , different size pots , different heat sinks , different circuitry boards , different construction , what they all have in common with each other is they are all amplifiers that play music . But they are different in there own ways and technology used .

Power supplies don't sound different, pots don't sound different, heat sinks don't sound different and construction won't make it sound different. Oops.
 

Oldphrt

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Barbapapa said:
As hinted at above, on the Harbeth User Group forum there is an extensive discussion about amps. Alan Shaw, the designer of Harbeth speakers and owner of the company, has long propagated that all well-designed amps sound the same. However, he acknowledges that in fact it is very difficult to have a really well-designed amp, as making a good amp is surprisingly difficult. What I've understood is the following (but bear in mind any misinterpretation is mine). Please excuse my mistakes in English, as this is not my native language.

An audio signal is measured in volt and ampere (multiplied becoming watt). Amplifying the signal would entail increasing voltage and/or current. An amp can go up to a limited voltage and can deliver a limited amount of amperage; both may in fact be related in that there is a limit to the total power (wattage) the amp can deliver. If you would attach a simple 8 Ohm resistor you could easily measure this, and I believe this may be the way in which simple measurements about amps power can be made. The amount of amplification (gain) is controlled by the volume pot.

Limitations in power lead immediately to differences in sound: the signal gets clipped, which may cause damage to speakers and amp. But if you do not come within reach of the limits, you would expect that two amps with the same gain would sound exactly the same, as that electronically speaking is the job that the amp has to do.

However, the gain and the limitations of power may not be completely constant. It is possible that an amp (for example) intentionally or unintentionally has different gain or different limits at different frequencies. If an amp has higher gain in the bass region, it will sound differently than a completely neutral amp.

Now the complicated part is that an amp doesn't drive a constant resistor but actual speakers which never offer a constant load. Several hifi journals offer impedance (=Ohm) plots of speakers over the frequency range. While some are quite constant over the range, other speakers may have quite extreme dips, starting from 8 Ohm but going down as deep as 2 Ohm or even 1 Ohm. You may wonder why this matters. If the impedance halves, the amount of power that the speaker sucks out of the amp (or needs to be driven) doubles. Hence an amp that would only need to provide a modest 10 Watt at 8 Ohm, suddenly needs to be able to provide 80 Ohm if the speaker dips to 1 Ohm at a specific frequency. Whether the speaker does go so low depends on the content of the music at that moment. If that frequency is no longer present, the amp has a far easier job.

Finally, there is something called 'damping factor'. This was discussed here recently as well. As far as I understand, a speaker 'stores' the energy (which is the effect of a coil) and then releases a current back to the amp. The amp has to be able to cope with this. The swings in impedance and required power described above have the effect that the amp afterwards has to deal with the current being returned.

All these effects may be easy to control when talking about very small amounts of power, for example with headphones or low listening levels (approx 1 watt). However, if you want to play louder you may easily need 50-100 Watt or even more. It is hard to make an amp that is able to cope with that amount of power and still offer a constant gain during dips, while being able to absorb the current returned to the amp.

As far as I understand it is possible to design an amp that is able to do all this fairly well, but such amps are not as common as one might think and may be very costly, in particular if they offer large amounts of power. Of course you may not need an extremely capable amp if your speaker is a so-called easy load (=doesn't have extreme impedance diips) or if you listen at modest levels.

Behringer A500. High power, low distortion and cheap.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
 

tonky

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Oldphrt said:
Barbapapa said:
As hinted at above, on the Harbeth User Group forum there is an extensive discussion about amps. Alan Shaw, the designer of Harbeth speakers and owner of the company, has long propagated that all well-designed amps sound the same. However, he acknowledges that in fact it is very difficult to have a really well-designed amp, as making a good amp is surprisingly difficult. What I've understood is the following (but bear in mind any misinterpretation is mine). Please excuse my mistakes in English, as this is not my native language.

An audio signal is measured in volt and ampere (multiplied becoming watt). Amplifying the signal would entail increasing voltage and/or current. An amp can go up to a limited voltage and can deliver a limited amount of amperage; both may in fact be related in that there is a limit to the total power (wattage) the amp can deliver. If you would attach a simple 8 Ohm resistor you could easily measure this, and I believe this may be the way in which simple measurements about amps power can be made. The amount of amplification (gain) is controlled by the volume pot.

Limitations in power lead immediately to differences in sound: the signal gets clipped, which may cause damage to speakers and amp. But if you do not come within reach of the limits, you would expect that two amps with the same gain would sound exactly the same, as that electronically speaking is the job that the amp has to do.

However, the gain and the limitations of power may not be completely constant. It is possible that an amp (for example) intentionally or unintentionally has different gain or different limits at different frequencies. If an amp has higher gain in the bass region, it will sound differently than a completely neutral amp.

Now the complicated part is that an amp doesn't drive a constant resistor but actual speakers which never offer a constant load. Several hifi journals offer impedance (=Ohm) plots of speakers over the frequency range. While some are quite constant over the range, other speakers may have quite extreme dips, starting from 8 Ohm but going down as deep as 2 Ohm or even 1 Ohm. You may wonder why this matters. If the impedance halves, the amount of power that the speaker sucks out of the amp (or needs to be driven) doubles. Hence an amp that would only need to provide a modest 10 Watt at 8 Ohm, suddenly needs to be able to provide 80 Ohm if the speaker dips to 1 Ohm at a specific frequency. Whether the speaker does go so low depends on the content of the music at that moment. If that frequency is no longer present, the amp has a far easier job.

Finally, there is something called 'damping factor'. This was discussed here recently as well. As far as I understand, a speaker 'stores' the energy (which is the effect of a coil) and then releases a current back to the amp. The amp has to be able to cope with this. The swings in impedance and required power described above have the effect that the amp afterwards has to deal with the current being returned.

All these effects may be easy to control when talking about very small amounts of power, for example with headphones or low listening levels (approx 1 watt). However, if you want to play louder you may easily need 50-100 Watt or even more. It is hard to make an amp that is able to cope with that amount of power and still offer a constant gain during dips, while being able to absorb the current returned to the amp.

As far as I understand it is possible to design an amp that is able to do all this fairly well, but such amps are not as common as one might think and may be very costly, in particular if they offer large amounts of power. Of course you may not need an extremely capable amp if your speaker is a so-called easy load (=doesn't have extreme impedance diips) or if you listen at modest levels.

Behringer A500. High power, low distortion and cheap.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

+1 to all the above - Behringer = Bargain - I heard these at Scalford show to great effect.

We've had similar threads BP sums it all up v nicely - and I agree - system synergy is everything.

regards tonky
 

Gaz37

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Oldphrt said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Amplifiers do sound all different 

they all have different power supply's , different size pots , different heat sinks , different circuitry boards , different construction , what they all have in common with each other is they are all amplifiers that play music . But they are different in there own ways and technology used .

Power supplies don't sound different, pots don't sound different, heat sinks don't sound different and construction won't make it sound different. Oops.

That's lines I was thinking along.
 

Gaz37

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Maybe I didn't put my question across very well.
What I'm wondering is, if you have an amp with a certain sound characteristic it should, assuming you can solder, be relatively easy and cheap to change a few components to alter the sound.
But, how do you know what component(s) make it sound bright or warm? Which ones effect soundstage?
Power is simple but what about every other aspect?
 
Gaz37 said:
Maybe I didn't put my question across very well. What I'm wondering is, if you have an amp with a certain sound characteristic it should, assuming you can solder, be relatively easy and cheap to change a few components to alter the sound. But, how do you know what component(s) make it sound bright or warm? Which ones effect soundstage? Power is simple but what about every other aspect?
It might be better to buy an amp with tone controls. Then you don't need to solder anything, and can undo any changes. After all, not all recordings are balanced the same, and you might enjoy adjusting the sound.
 

stereoman

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Not an expert but it has sth to do with few major things. Like capacitors, signal path, transformers and transistors. The biggest difference is between MosFets and Bipolar - one can hear the difference straight off even in a blind test. MosFet based amps have wider soundstage and resolution. More "airy" sound in high frequency area. But whether a good MosFet amp is better than a good Bipolar - this is a matter of discussion. The rest comes down to immaculate layouts ( some with full mono per channel separation and low noise floor) with good components and speaker terminals. All this affects the output sound.
 

ellisdj

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I am on my third solid state amp in a matter of weeks and they all sound different.

The one I am listening to now is rocking my world but its early days and only on very quiet
 

abacus

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It depends on how the amp reacts with the speaker; a more expensive amp will probably have a more superior power supply that will not baulk at more difficult to drive speakers. (This is the reason actives are so good (At least if you want accuracy) as the amp is matched to the driver)

If you take your time when choosing an amp/speaker combination, you will not even think about wanting to change for many years. (Failure to follow this advice (EG. by believing in reviews and others personal opinion) and you will constantly be swopping and changing)

Bill
 

Andrewjvt

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ellisdj said:
I am on my third solid state amp in a matter of weeks and they all sound different.

The one I am listening to now is rocking my world but its early days and only on very quiet

Hi

Why dont you level match the amps and record the same song then edit the video to switch between amps so we can hear the differences?
 

ellisdj

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Andrewjvt said:
ellisdj said:
I am on my third solid state amp in a matter of weeks and they all sound different.

The one I am listening to now is rocking my world but its early days and only on very quiet

Hi

Why dont you level match the amps and record the same song then edit the video to switch between amps so we can hear the differences?

I dont have them all to hand and you tube seems to apply its own level adjustment so it would be tricky.

When I do playback videos for the luxman it will be with the preamp at 80db level digital display.
I ran dirac with the preamp at 80db same as I did the arcam p49 and that was set at that volume level for the recordings

The issue is the recording level it needs adjusting per song and I dont know what it was set at per each song on the P49 recordings
I am pretty sure it will be roughly the same though for the luxman recordings.

It does make sense though what your suggesting andrew mate
 

Andrewjvt

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ellisdj said:
Andrewjvt said:
ellisdj said:
I am on my third solid state amp in a matter of weeks and they all sound different.

The one I am listening to now is rocking my world but its early days and only on very quiet

Hi

Why dont you level match the amps and record the same song then edit the video to switch between amps so we can hear the differences?

I dont have them all to hand and you tube seems to apply its own level adjustment so it would be tricky.

When I do playback videos for the luxman it will be with the preamp at 80db level digital display.
I ran dirac with the preamp at 80db same as I did the arcam p49 and that was set at that volume level for the recordings

The issue is the recording level it needs adjusting per song and I dont know what it was set at per each song on the P49 recordings
I am pretty sure it will be roughly the same though for the luxman recordings.

It does make sense though what your suggesting andrew mate

No worries

But could you do similar sort of thing with and without the isolation feet?

So i can hear the difference on same video?
 

Vladimir

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All amps sound practically the same, all digital/analog sources, even all speakers relative to size sound almost the same. Only when you become anal listener in this hobby you begin to hear minute differences as night and day. Some of them are nonexistent or wrongly interpreted. Much bigger impact comes from user interfaces, how we physically, intellectually and visually interact with gear. Most importantly, you're not enjoying music when you're listening for differences, so don't overdo it.

People who are not in this hobby won't be able to tell appart hi-end from begginer setup if played at same loudness. The finess is lost on them. It's something you acquire. Do you need to know wines to get drunk and have a smile or a sob? Not really. You can go full Dionysian and just dance drunk like no one is watching.

If you can't tell big differences or understand audiophile/reviewer lingo don't get discouraged. It's all made up culture, you just need to prettend along.
 

newlash09

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I have three seperate systems at home at very dissimilar price points. And my wife insists they all sound the same. I think they differ from each other very slightly. And that difference is too small for a non hobbyist to make out on first listen. But I can identify my 3 pairs of speakers because of their weaknesses. One is slightly laid back, other is Pacey but very bass heavy. And the third are satellites with small scale. Again my wife can't make out one from the other.

But if one were to swap my amps and sources, Iam not sure I can make out one from the other. So in my opinion once a decent level of equipment is procured, it is very difficult to make out one from the other.
 

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