How do amps sound different?

[tonky]

Differences too small for a non hobbyist - I agree. But most of us here are hobbyists to a greater or lesser extent. People on the site argue/discuss/criticise about the atributes of their like/dislikes until the cows come home.

I suppose passionate listeners of music do that - I value other contributors opinions very much. But I try not to speak out of my arse. Hope I am not becoming anally retentive - I am quite constipated these days.

So there we have it - hobbyists/pasionate/careful listeners are more discerning and can hear the subtle (and sometimes obvious) differences between amps/speakers etc.

tonky

 

[grimharry]

Just started putting together a system for my 16y old son technics sld30 turntable new £30 at cartridge pioneer a400 and kef q100. I wouldn't say I couldn't tell the difference between his system and mine but it did sound very nice.

 

[tonky]

Having a Pioneer A400 - I know what a fine sounding amp it is (as long as it is not driven too hard. Nice that it matches with the other stuff

tonky

 

[grimharry]

Had it recapped a couple of years ago.

 

[Gaz37]

Take a pioneer A300R, decent amp but nothing special. Give to Tom Evans to play with & it apparently becomes something amazing.
Same with the Marantz PM66, decent run of the mill integrated, Ken Ishiwata has a fiddle and again miracles happen.
Do you need to be Tom Evans or Ken Ishiwata to achieve this transformation? OK the Marantz KI stuff have copper chassis which are beyond DIY manufacture but what did Tom Evans change in A300 to make the Precision?

 

[CnoEvil]

Does "How" do amps sound different, have the same answer as, "Why" do amps sound different? *scratch_one-s_head*

 

[grimharry]

When I had the a400 recapped the smoothing caps were increased etc but the biggest change was simply increasing the bias.

 

[Al ears]

Take a pioneer A300R, decent amp but nothing special. Give to Tom Evans to play with & it apparently becomes something amazing. Same with the Marantz PM66, decent run of the mill integrated, Ken Ishiwata has a fiddle and again miracles happen. Do you need to be Tom Evans or Ken Ishiwata to achieve this transformation? OK the Marantz KI stuff have copper chassis which are beyond DIY manufacture but what did Tom Evans change in A300 to make the Precision?

Probably not a lot, tweaks to power supply may be.... however when I gave him a 300R to turn into a power amp I was amazed. Hence my current amplification. Nuff said?

 

[Gaz37]

Take a pioneer A300R, decent amp but nothing special. Give to Tom Evans to play with & it apparently becomes something amazing. Same with the Marantz PM66, decent run of the mill integrated, Ken Ishiwata has a fiddle and again miracles happen. Do you need to be Tom Evans or Ken Ishiwata to achieve this transformation? OK the Marantz KI stuff have copper chassis which are beyond DIY manufacture but what did Tom Evans change in A300 to make the Precision?

Probably not a lot, tweaks to power supply may be.... however when I gave him a 300R to turn into a power amp I was amazed. Hence my current amplification. Nuff said?

This is what I was getting at, it might (I don't know hence the thread) be easier and cheaper for anybody dissatisfied with their amp to get a few components changed.
Reviews suggest that Tom Evans A300R sounds better than some really high end kit, so how easy/feasible/expensive would it be to buy a standard A300R and turn it into a seriously good amp? My guess, and that's all it is, is that it may be achievable to somebody handy with a soldering iron and some relatively cheap components?

 

[Al ears]

Take a pioneer A300R, decent amp but nothing special. Give to Tom Evans to play with & it apparently becomes something amazing. Same with the Marantz PM66, decent run of the mill integrated, Ken Ishiwata has a fiddle and again miracles happen. Do you need to be Tom Evans or Ken Ishiwata to achieve this transformation? OK the Marantz KI stuff have copper chassis which are beyond DIY manufacture but what did Tom Evans change in A300 to make the Precision?

Probably not a lot, tweaks to power supply may be.... however when I gave him a 300R to turn into a power amp I was amazed. Hence my current amplification. Nuff said?

This is what I was getting at, it might (I don't know hence the thread) be easier and cheaper for anybody dissatisfied with their amp to get a few components changed. Reviews suggest that Tom Evans A300R sounds better than some really high end kit, so how easy/feasible/expensive would it be to buy a standard A300R and turn it into a seriously good amp? My guess, and that's all it is, is that it may be achievable to somebody handy with a soldering iron and some relatively cheap components?

It may be possible if you're a qualified electronic engineer or someone who really knows about amplifier design and certainly some items like caps can be fairly easily replaced but as for getting an A300R to sound better than the cost of upgrading then I would leave that to the ones that know..... or better still, just be happy with the A300R as is.

The Tom Evans A300R simply had a few minor tweaks done, it begins to cost a lot of money when his Lithos components are added to the power supply side of things and major tweaking is applied. It's not a cheap exercise and some would say better to by a £800 amp to start with, although I would disagree.....

 

[Vladimir]

Harman had the problem of unreliable listeners due to minute audible differences when they run first DBT tests. Neither audiophiles, reviewers or hifi sales ppl were reliable under DBT conditions. So they took regular ppl with normal healthy hearing and had them trained to learn the nuances of different frequency, pitch, distortion, sibilance etc. Aftermath showed they were immensly better once they learned what they were supposed to listen for in a say pair of speakers, a recording etc. And the fact they were unable to tell brand, price, build quality and such, meant the results were objective. Even if you are a trained listener you can't be immune to bias, it's simply human.

But that's science and what we do as audio enthusiasts is culture, a hobby. No such training or special precodnitioning is neccessary for us to have fun.

 

[Vladimir]

I have three seperate systems at home at very dissimilar price points. And my wife insists they all sound the same. I think they differ from each other very slightly. And that difference is too small for a non hobbyist to make out on first listen. But I can identify my 3 pairs of speakers because of their weaknesses. One is slightly laid back, other is Pacey but very bass heavy. And the third are satellites with small scale. Again my wife can't make out one from the other.

But if one were to swap my amps and sources, Iam not sure I can make out one from the other. So in my opinion once a decent level of equipment is procured, it is very difficult to make out one from the other.

Have you noticed with people outside of this hobby they all first obsess over bass. This seems to be most important to everyone, full sound, high energy. Interestingly as we progress deeper in this rabbit hole, we realize it's the hardest one to get right.

 

[Gray]

(Still can't quote others posts in mine but) Gaz37 mentioned 66 to 66KI transformation.

When I needed to repair it, I bought a circuit diagram for my KI, which detailed all the differences over the standard 66. Apart from the copper casework and toroidal mains transformer it was only a few critical caps, with the majority of the swapouts actually in the phono preamp if I remember rightly.

Can't say I ever heard the standard amp though, so can't confirm what differences they made in the KI.

 

[Gaz37]

Take a pioneer A300R, decent amp but nothing special. Give to Tom Evans to play with & it apparently becomes something amazing. Same with the Marantz PM66, decent run of the mill integrated, Ken Ishiwata has a fiddle and again miracles happen. Do you need to be Tom Evans or Ken Ishiwata to achieve this transformation? OK the Marantz KI stuff have copper chassis which are beyond DIY manufacture but what did Tom Evans change in A300 to make the Precision?

Probably not a lot, tweaks to power supply may be.... however when I gave him a 300R to turn into a power amp I was amazed. Hence my current amplification. Nuff said?

This is what I was getting at, it might (I don't know hence the thread) be easier and cheaper for anybody dissatisfied with their amp to get a few components changed. Reviews suggest that Tom Evans A300R sounds better than some really high end kit, so how easy/feasible/expensive would it be to buy a standard A300R and turn it into a seriously good amp? My guess, and that's all it is, is that it may be achievable to somebody handy with a soldering iron and some relatively cheap components?

It may be possible if you're a qualified electronic engineer or someone who really knows about amplifier design and certainly some items like caps can be fairly easily replaced but as for getting an A300R to sound better than the cost of upgrading then I would leave that to the ones that know..... or better still, just be happy with the A300R as is.

The Tom Evans A300R simply had a few minor tweaks done, it begins to cost a lot of money when his Lithos components are added to the power supply side of things and major tweaking is applied. It's not a cheap exercise and some would say better to by a £800 amp to start with, although I would disagree.....

Do you need to be a qualified audio engineer?
It must be a known fact which components have certain effects on different elements of sound, this may well be closely guarded secret though.
I very much doubt new amp designs are trial and error from the outset, there's probably a set formula.