I have been in this hobby for about 25 years, but with the exception of about 5 minutes at the Windsor Highend show in 2016 I have no experience of horn loudspeakers. What are the pros and cons of them as a loudspeaker and are they better than contemporary offerings, which on the whole are not horn?
Horn Loudspeakers?
- Thread starter Gazzip
- Start date
-'s:
size.
Looks
Manufacturing costs
getting bass drivers up to the efficiency of horned midrange drivers - resulting often in sonic compromises in the bass
forward, dragons breath sound-staging. This is not really a disadvantage per se. Just something to be aware of for those used to the more laid back / shut-in sound-staging of direct radiators.
Don't quite do the magical speaker cabinet has disappeared act that electrostatics can do in the midrange
Some of them can sound brash / artificial on vocals
Directional dispersion
+'s
Dynamics.
Clarity.
Give amps an easy time
Work fine with low powered SET amps
Higher max volumes
Easy to repair.
Directional dispersion
size.
Looks
Manufacturing costs
getting bass drivers up to the efficiency of horned midrange drivers - resulting often in sonic compromises in the bass
forward, dragons breath sound-staging. This is not really a disadvantage per se. Just something to be aware of for those used to the more laid back / shut-in sound-staging of direct radiators.
Don't quite do the magical speaker cabinet has disappeared act that electrostatics can do in the midrange
Some of them can sound brash / artificial on vocals
Directional dispersion
+'s
Dynamics.
Clarity.
Give amps an easy time
Work fine with low powered SET amps
Higher max volumes
Easy to repair.
Directional dispersion
Forgot a minus for some horns. Corner horns, like JBL Hartsfields sound better in corners. Doors and windows may make this awkward for a stereo pair.
Any horn designed to produce bass below 100hz, will be big, very big. You can apply all the tricks that you like, complex folded horn, corner mounting, whatever, but the results were still big speakers.
The Hartsfield discussed above was one of the best, most successfull speakers of it's type but it died a death in the early '60s as even big american homes of that period could not easily accomodate two of these speakers for the then emerging stereo setups. Good though these speakers were, it is worth noting that the bandwidth was quite poor by modern standards, -3dB points being around 70hz at the bass end and 9,000hz at the top.
For a very basic primer in bass horn designs, take a look here.
The Hartsfield discussed above was one of the best, most successfull speakers of it's type but it died a death in the early '60s as even big american homes of that period could not easily accomodate two of these speakers for the then emerging stereo setups. Good though these speakers were, it is worth noting that the bandwidth was quite poor by modern standards, -3dB points being around 70hz at the bass end and 9,000hz at the top.
For a very basic primer in bass horn designs, take a look here.
davedotco said:
Seriously?
Why is that because they were using the driver as a mid / bass driver?
insider9
Well-known member
Thanks Davedotco.
Question regarding directivity... would this be an advantage or disadvantage over short listening distance? On one hand it would cause less room reflections on the other it could mean that there is a minimum distance required and they're not good at a smaller distance.
Question regarding directivity... would this be an advantage or disadvantage over short listening distance? On one hand it would cause less room reflections on the other it could mean that there is a minimum distance required and they're not good at a smaller distance.
ellisdj said:
Because these were the limitations of the horn. Though the -3dB point was as stated, the Hartsfield maintained decent response down to around 35-40hz, and with a bit of room gain, this was considered state of the art. Remember, the driving force in audio at this time was the cinema and their primary requirement was mid bass sensitivity, not bass extension.
Worth bearing in mind the source material of the time, early 12inch lps and, mostly, AM radio. Fm radio did exist and some live music broadcasts were, by repute, very good but these were rare and virtually unknown outside of the New York area.
Interestingly I just went on the Funktion One website to look at what their horns do - folded horns expecting stupid low bass figures ie. things have improved.
I was shocked to 45 - 60 hz as the lowest (quick scan) - 3db
I was shocked to 45 - 60 hz as the lowest (quick scan) - 3db
insider9 said:
To be honest, this is a huge subject even though you can effectively forget about bass horns for any kind of domestic use.
Controlled directivity is very usefull in increasing the 'throw' of pa and sound reinforcement systems but for home use the widest dispersion possible is usually the aim. Highly directional mids and highs might give an impression of immediacy and presence but are not really practical as the 'sweet spot' becomes tiny, and the reflected (room) sound is unbalanced.
In convention hi-fi, dome tweeters and small mid-bass drivers give good dispersion and on many studio type speakers the hf dispersion is controlled by a 'wave guide', lots of ways to get this right (and wrong) but generally speaking, wide disperion is to be preferred.
Again, a bit of perspective. We often hear the term 'near field' applied to some studio speakers, in reality this is really code for 'does not go loud enough to be used ar a distance'. In a normal domestic room you have to be sitting very close indeed to be in the 'near field', virtually all hi-fi listening is done in the far field. Just be thankful that our ears are very good at sorting out 'direct sound' from reflected sound, otherwise hi-fi would really not work at all.
ellisdj said:
It is simply a trade off between horn size and bass extension, it is perfectly possible to get bass flat to 20hz, it is just that the house would be in the speaker, not the other way round.
This really does show just how important the AR3a of the mid '60s was, bass flat to below 50hz from an enclosure little more than 2ft by 1ft by 1ft. Truly revolutionary and effectively the end of big high sensitivily speakers for the home.
JBL's response to this was the similarly sized L100, a design that had much higher sensitivity than the AR3a though at the cost of bass extension (physics again). For the popular music market at which it was aimed, this really was not an issue.
I've evolved my bass preferences to aim for tuneful, fast, rich in tambre and deep, over hard hitting, chest pounding and wall shaking. I even keep my desk monitors LF switch adjustment at -2db despite the bass being already flat as default. I spent nearly a year listening to most of my music on the AKG K701s and it made me appreciate information over energy.
In that period I heard a pair of DIY 'bin and horn' speakers, as Dave would call them, and I found the bass very acceptable, even impressive, despite them going -6dB at 70Hz (they paired with a large Infinity sub, which I didn't hear). The bass drivers were from Meyer Sound arrays, the cd+horns were old Morels.
In that period I heard a pair of DIY 'bin and horn' speakers, as Dave would call them, and I found the bass very acceptable, even impressive, despite them going -6dB at 70Hz (they paired with a large Infinity sub, which I didn't hear). The bass drivers were from Meyer Sound arrays, the cd+horns were old Morels.
ellisdj said:
Generally, if you need both bass and mid bass from the same driver, you use a direct radiator/rear loaded horn enclosure, rather like this...
The mid bass comes direct from the cone, the deeper bass from the horn, flat to about 60hz, -10dB at 40hz. A classic and quite suberb enclosure, versatile too, combined with a suitable horn for mid and highs, I have used them as a simple, short throw system in clubs and small venues, as fills onstage and, most entertainingly as a drumfill.
PS. Any drummers out there? If you have never played 'amplified drums' you have never lived.*biggrin*
ellisdj said:
About the drivers, just used that photo as it showed the 'scoop' really well. Definitely not JBL.
Back in about 1980, there was a brief 'roller disco' craze, I was asked to provide a system for the electric ballroom in Camden as even the biggest 'disco' system could not cope, especially with all the skate noise.
A pair of these plus a big horn/lense setup each side got the job done, no problem.
An interesting aside, we supplied a third octave graphic equaliser as part of the bi-amp rack, but knowing DJs the lowest bands 25-60hz approx were internally wired to maximum cut, even so, the bass could really thump you in the chest, even at the back of the hall.
insider9
Well-known member
insider9
Well-known member
Thanks for the explanation. It doesn't look likely I will leave my ribbons for horns.davedotco said:
the fact you can use a port to get better extension from smaller enclosures - surely makes them a sensible choice?
They were being honest. And they weren't using a stupid port to increase measured bass extension.ellisdj said:
The EV Patrician corner horns of the 1950's to 1960's were good for bass extension down to 18 to 30hz. They were larger than Hartsfields, with bigger bass drivers.
Their huge size is somewhat compensated bt their prefered position of 1 inch from the corner. Plus the ability to stack stuff on top of them.
Trouble is, with ports, you get a large amount of distortion on transients in the frequencies covered by the ports.
They are murder for bass drums and reggae style bass guitar.
They are a great example of measuring well in one highly limited technical respect (frequency response), but sounding awful.
And yes, for smaller speakers they have become an accepted solution.
There's also a school of thought that ports can help the midrange. Although that's all ifs and buts.
They are murder for bass drums and reggae style bass guitar.
They are a great example of measuring well in one highly limited technical respect (frequency response), but sounding awful.
And yes, for smaller speakers they have become an accepted solution.
There's also a school of thought that ports can help the midrange. Although that's all ifs and buts.
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