HiFi - Imagination, Exaggeration and Colouration?

[Infiniteloop]

The relationship between B&W and Rotel isn't ownership of one over the other, but partnership of one bigger and one smaller but reputable company. B&W represents Rotel with their robust marketing capabilities, presents the brand on hi-fi shows, reviews, advertising, distribution etc. They probably get a good percentage of the sales for this and they get a budget amp to match with their speakers (Classe would be the premium range). Rotel of course has its independancy and probably acts on its own in many things but the relationship with B&W is not negligable. So it is a relationship of financial interest. You will see Rotel next to B&W on certain market where this partnership is established, and not on others (as ID pointed out).

Does every B&W speaker of the budget range have the same quirks that benefit from Rotel amps?

What is are these issues that B&Ws have and Rotel solves?

Can other amps do the same augmenting 100%?

Do speaker designers make speakers with certain amplifiers in mind and vice versa?

Why would Rotel adapt its amplifier to suit B&W quirks if they also need to sell their amps universally to work with other speaker brands?

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. B&W and Rotel are often seen together due to this financial relationship and people created this myth that they fit like hand and glove. It happend with other brands I'm sure.

Any other explanation?

Aren't all Amps designed and engineered along scientific principles supposed to sound the same i.e. 'flat'?

If so, isn't this moot?

 

[Vladimir]

The relationship between B&W and Rotel isn't ownership of one over the other, but partnership of one bigger and one smaller but reputable company. B&W represents Rotel with their robust marketing capabilities, presents the brand on hi-fi shows, reviews, advertising, distribution etc. They probably get a good percentage of the sales for this and they get a budget amp to match with their speakers (Classe would be the premium range). Rotel of course has its independancy and probably acts on its own in many things but the relationship with B&W is not negligable. So it is a relationship of financial interest. You will see Rotel next to B&W on certain market where this partnership is established, and not on others (as ID pointed out).

Does every B&W speaker of the budget range have the same quirks that benefit from Rotel amps?

What are these issues that B&Ws have that Rotel solves?

Can other amps do the same augmenting 100%?

Do speaker designers make speakers with certain amplifiers in mind and vice versa?

Why would Rotel adapt its amplifier to suit B&W quirks if they also need to sell their amps universally to work with other speaker brands?

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. B&W and Rotel are often seen together due to this financial relationship and people created this myth that they fit like hand and glove. It happend with other brands I'm sure.

Any other explanation?

 

[Vladimir]

Aren't all Amps designed and engineered along scientific principles supposed to sound the same i.e. 'flat'?

If so, isn't this moot?

Well, one could say that B&W speakers have nasty low impedance dips or phase angle shift so Rotel devoted to making amps that could battle this issue left unresolved by B&W speaker designers. But if Rotel made amps with robust PSUs, that would benefit other tough to drive speakers, and other robust amps would benefit B&Ws to sing to their full capacity. I don't see a need for one brand to use the other to solve an engineering issue.

You can still take the smallest Rotel amp and hook it up to big B&W floorstanders and have it strugle with them, resulting with clipping and non-linear behavior (and yes not flat FR). But get a big Rotel and it will drive them like a champ. So does what brand has to do with it?

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

 

[pyrrhon]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

Naim goes well with pmc, harbeth, spendor, vienna, proacs...

 

[Frank Harvey]

What are these issues that B&Ws have that Rotel solves?

I just found that amplifiers you would usually partner with £200-500 loudspeakers couldn't control the bass of the 600 series properly - they were capable of producing crazy amounts of bass given their size. Whether this was down to pure control, not remaining stable, not having the current etc etc, I don't know. But the Rotels (which were £250 and £350 at the time) just seemed to make them sound the way they should sound - tight and punchy. The DM603 always partnered really well with Rotel's pre/power amps.

Do speaker designers make speakers with certain amplifiers in mind and vice versa?

I'm sure some do.

Why would Rotel adapt its amplifier to suit B&W quirks if they also need to sell their amps universally to work with other speaker brands?

Do they? Or is it just that the Rotel amps are more capable when it comes to B&W speakers?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

They used to, back in Naim's "olive" days, I don't know about now as I've not heard any modern Epos other than at hi-fi shows. Epos speakers were designed around Naim equipment back then. And it showed.

That's not to say the old Naim amps didn't suit other speakers, but back then, there weren't many speakers that did. Modern Naim amps partner well with more speakers than they ever used to.

 

[pyrrhon]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

They used to, back in Naim's "olive" days, I don't know about now as I've not heard any modern Epos other than at hi-fi shows. Epos speakers were designed around Naim equipment back then. And it showed.

That's not to say the old Naim amps didn't suit other speakers, but back then, there weren't many speakers that did. Modern Naim amps partner well with more speakers than they ever used to.

I sometimes read the naim forum but don't see much Epos suggestions anymore. I like the idea of foward sounding pairing with laid back speakers. But in my case I really fell for proac and naim so theres always room for exceptions. And supernait sound less forward. For rotel they make powerful amps for sure and good price!

 

[Ajani]

How is what I said an insult?

I said in this thread, exactly what I said in the other thread (so I have no idea why you say I should say it in that thread): we disagree and are not going to change each other's mind.

I didn't question your intelligence or experience. So I have absolutely no idea why you feel I am insulting you.

This is part of why I have no desire to debate with you, if you find that insulting, then I can't see how we have any kind of discussion.

As for speakers you asked me about: what would be the point? If I tell you a Magico S7 with sufficient amplification is capable of Horn level dynamics, then what? You'll say you disagree? So what's the point?

We've both said what we wanted to say on the issue. and obviously neither of us is changing our minds. If you find that insulting, then I really don't know what to tell you.

I find it insulting for anyone to question my ability to change my mind when I am presented with evidence that contradicts my internal model of the world.

It's insulting because it's not true. It's insulting because you're saying that I have this negative aspect to my personality when I don't.

If you or anyone else can nominate a coned and domed speaker that you seriously think matches the dynamics of full sized horns and midrange resolution of electrostatics then I will try my best to go out and listen to that speaker. Ideally in a level matched A/B demo.

If that speaker then turns out to be as good as the nominator said, then I will completely amend post #2 of this thread.

If that speaker doesn't turn out to be as good as claimed, then I will come back here and report my findings.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should go out and audition Magico S7's?

Have you heard (or tested) the Magico S7's yourself? If so, what were your full and honest impressions of them?

This is why I don't see the point in continuing a discussion with you, you are not understanding my points and instead insist on feeling insulted over things which were never intended to be insulting.

You want me to name a speaker for you to SUBJECTIVELY evaluate and if you come to an agreeable SUBJECTIVE evaluation, then you will change your mind. If you come to a different SUBJECTIVE evaluation you will return to the thread and say I'm wrong. That sounds like a complete waste of time to me.

So since I don't see any point in the "test" that you have proposed, I see no way to resolve our differences of opinion and I'll repeat again: Nothing we say will change each other's minds. So can we stop wasting time with this?

 

[Frank Harvey]

It was the old ES11 and ES14 models from the 90s that were designed around the old style (olive coloured) Naim amps with the wrap around cases - these were a far leaner and more forward sounding amplifier than the current Naim models. I used to love the sound of the 72/140 combo.

 

[Vladimir]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

Naim goes well with pmc, harbeth, spendor, vienna, proacs...

This reminds me of Leo matches well with Cancer and Piesces horoscope.

I'm genuinly interested to learn how people come up with these brand synergies. I've been looking into logical factors like input sensitive amps (screamers like Naim) go well with duller sounding speakers like Epos and Spendor. However, I don't see the consistency with more than just couple of brands.

 

[Ajani]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

Naim goes well with pmc, harbeth, spendor, vienna, proacs...

This reminds me of Leo matches well with Cancer and Piesces horoscope.

I'm genuinly interested to learn how people come up with these brand synergies. I've been looking into logical factors like input sensitive amps (screamers like Naim) go well with duller sounding speakers like Epos and Spendor. However, I don't see the consistency with more than just couple of brands.

I believe part of it is that Brand X will design and test their speakers using Brand Y's electronics and vice versa. So some real reasons may exist as a result. After that, years of marketing etc probably exaggerates those differences.

 

[Ajani]

Double Post.

 

[Vladimir]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

Naim goes well with pmc, harbeth, spendor, vienna, proacs...

This reminds me of Leo matches well with Cancer and Piesces horoscope.

I'm genuinly interested to learn how people come up with these brand synergies. I've been looking into logical factors like input sensitive amps (screamers like Naim) go well with duller sounding speakers like Epos and Spendor. However, I don't see the consistency with more than just couple of brands.

I believe part of it is that Brand X will design and test their speakers using Brand Y's electronics and vice versa. So some real reasons may exist as a result. After that, years of marketing etc probably exaggerates those differences.

Arcam will be consistent in designing amps with less input sensitivity in order to leave good usable volume regulation. 500mV input sensitivity for the digital inputs means it takes only 500mV to get the amp to 100% power and begin clipping after that. Standard output for digital devices is 2Vrms, so 4 times more than it takes to get the amp into clipping. Arcam will make their amps 500mV-1000mV.

Now compare that to Naim that is consistently designing their amps with very sensitive inputs, typically less than 150mV. If the amp has 110mV input sens. it means a CDP will get it into clipping very quickly. The amp will sound very loud very early on the volume knob. You probably can't go pass 10 o'clock before getting unbearably loud and with clipping. This is the oldest trick in the book to make a weak amp sound powerfull. If it goes very loud early on the volume knob people get the impression it has more juice to it but they simply can't go further and fear damaging their speakers and hearing. The famous special Naim watts. 30 Naim watts = 300 Krell watts. Of course there are no hidden 270 watts, it's just an illusion they are there.

So Arcam takes a bit of volume knob turning to get as loud as a Naim amp, so this create the impression the Arcam is warmer, softer, duller. The Naim feel forward and brash when turned loud. Even if both amps measure very flat FR within their safe operating regime (sans clipping), they will still give the impression of different coloration.

If you own a 30W Naim amp, you will very likely go into clipping on occasions. So having speakers that are colored in their FR to be duller in the upper midrange and highs, this will soften the issue and you can really abuse the amp more.

Of course there is more to why Naim amps sound different, not just the input sensitivity thing, but that is typically what happens as significant factor making amps sound different from eachother IMO, aside from power, brand, price, looks and other factors. Naim amps are born from this and have low damping factor like valve amps, Class B biasing and few other quirks amps today don't have.

 

[Ajani]

It's funny, I remember Vlad and I being accused by the anti-science crowd in this thread of using veiled insults cuz we ran out of points etc... Yet I don't see them objecting to a string of blatant insults being aimed at me by somone from their side of the argument.

Anyway Chris, I'm sure you can see arguing this point with him is a waste of time.

Ajani, are you referring to Thompsonuxb or me or both of us?

I'd prefer it if you used usernames when referring to other members of this forum.

Instead of using mildly insulting ad hominem tags like "the anti-science crowd".

So you also find that insulting, but have no comment on other posters refering to me/my posts as Idiotry, Foo and Zealotry? Which was exactly my point.

I didn't realize I was expected to go back and look up the names of all those persons who complained about the veiled insults. It wasn't worth the effort, so I didn't do it and I still don't see a point in doing it.

 

[manicm]

Yeah, but the only 30w Naim amp is part of the Qute. So why singling Naim out? Marantz have a nasty habit of suger coating their ratings.

 

[Vladimir]

I just picked Arcam and Naim since they were already discussed in earlier threads about amp input sensitivity.

Ajani in his OP criticizes audiophile for their modus operandi. My contribution to this thread is an addendum. Not only audiophiles are fooling themselves, but also are being fooled by the manufacturers and the media. It's a regurgetating circular process.

 

[Native_bon]

I just picked Arcam and Naim since they were already discussed in earlier threads about amp input sensitivity.

Ajani in his OP criticizes audiophile for their modus operandi. My contribution to this thread is an addendum. Not only audiophiles are fooling themselves, but also are being fooled by the manufacturers and the media. It's a regurgetating circular process.

So that means your poll of accuracy was in peoples head not what was actually happening with their system?

 

[Covenanter]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

Naim goes well with pmc, harbeth, spendor, vienna, proacs...

This reminds me of Leo matches well with Cancer and Piesces horoscope.

I'm genuinly interested to learn how people come up with these brand synergies. I've been looking into logical factors like input sensitive amps (screamers like Naim) go well with duller sounding speakers like Epos and Spendor. However, I don't see the consistency with more than just couple of brands.

I believe part of it is that Brand X will design and test their speakers using Brand Y's electronics and vice versa. So some real reasons may exist as a result. After that, years of marketing etc probably exaggerates those differences.

Arcam will be consistent in designing amps with less input sensitivity in order to leave good usable volume regulation. 500mV input sensitivity for the digital inputs means it takes only 500mV to get the amp to 100% power and begin clipping after that. Standard output for digital devices is 2Vrms, so 4 times more than it takes to get the amp into clipping. Arcam will make their amps 500mV-1000mV.

Now compare that to Naim that is consistently designing their amps with very sensitive inputs, typically less than 150mV. If the amp has 110mV input sens. it means a CDP will get it into clipping very quickly. The amp will sound very loud very early on the volume knob. You probably can't go pass 10 o'clock before getting unbearably loud and with clipping. This is the oldest trick in the book to make a weak amp sound powerfull. If it goes very loud early on the volume knob people get the impression it has more juice to it but they simply can't go further and fear damaging their speakers and hearing. The famous special Naim watts. 30 Naim watts = 300 Krell watts. Of course there are no hidden 270 watts, it's just an illusion they are there.

So Arcam takes a bit of volume knob turning to get as loud as a Naim amp, so this create the impression the Arcam is warmer, softer, duller. The Naim feel forward and brash when turned loud. Even if both amps measure very flat FR within their safe operating regime (sans clipping), they will still give the impression of different coloration.

If you own a 30W Naim amp, you will very likely go into clipping on occasions. So having speakers that are colored in their FR to be duller in the upper midrange and highs, this will soften the issue and you can really abuse the amp more.

Of course there is more to why Naim amps sound different, not just the input sensitivity thing, but that is typically what happens as significant factor making amps sound different from eachother IMO, aside from power, brand, price, looks and other factors. Naim amps are born from this and have low damping factor like valve amps, Class B biasing and few other quirks amps today don't have.

I think many amplifiers will have a single preamp (apart from any phono stage) and so the input sensitivity will be a compromise, sensitive enough for low output devices but not too sensitive for high output devices.

Chris

 

[Vladimir]

I just picked Arcam and Naim since they were already discussed in earlier threads about amp input sensitivity.

Ajani in his OP criticizes audiophile for their modus operandi. My contribution to this thread is an addendum. Not only audiophiles are fooling themselves, but also are being fooled by the manufacturers and the media. It's a regurgetating circular process.

So that means your poll of accuracy was in peoples head not what was actually happening with their system?

It was about what people aspire to. Do they really want the placebo/aproximation as few but very vocal audiophiles like to point out, or do they want accuracy. Apparently most do want an accurate system. Are they getting their money's worth, different topic for a different poll.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I just picked Arcam and Naim since they were already discussed in earlier threads about amp input sensitivity.

Ajani in his OP criticizes audiophile for their modus operandi. My contribution to this thread is an addendum. Not only audiophiles are fooling themselves, but also are being fooled by the manufacturers and the media. It's a regurgetating circular process.

So that means your poll of accuracy was in peoples head not what was actually happening with their system?

It was about what people aspire to. Do they really want the placebo as few but very vocal audiophiles like to point out, or do they want accuracy. Apparently most do want an accurate system. Are they getting their money's worth, different topic for a different poll.

Vlad, In light of the above, have you had a look at the configurator for Devialets on the Devialet website? If not, I think you'd be amazed at just how much you can configure the Amp to behave as you want it to. That, along with the lowest measured distortion figures and accuracy could mean this is Amp nirvana.

I bought one because I like the sound it makes. - Would this level of configurability (and its measured specs) make you consider one?

 

[Infiniteloop]

Naim goes well with Epos. Why?

Naim goes well with pmc, harbeth, spendor, vienna, proacs...

This reminds me of Leo matches well with Cancer and Piesces horoscope.

I'm genuinly interested to learn how people come up with these brand synergies. I've been looking into logical factors like input sensitive amps (screamers like Naim) go well with duller sounding speakers like Epos and Spendor. However, I don't see the consistency with more than just couple of brands.

I believe part of it is that Brand X will design and test their speakers using Brand Y's electronics and vice versa. So some real reasons may exist as a result. After that, years of marketing etc probably exaggerates those differences.

Arcam will be consistent in designing amps with less input sensitivity in order to leave good usable volume regulation. 500mV input sensitivity for the digital inputs means it takes only 500mV to get the amp to 100% power and begin clipping after that. Standard output for digital devices is 2Vrms, so 4 times more than it takes to get the amp into clipping. Arcam will make their amps 500mV-1000mV.

Now compare that to Naim that is consistently designing their amps with very sensitive inputs, typically less than 150mV. If the amp has 110mV input sens. it means a CDP will get it into clipping very quickly. The amp will sound very loud very early on the volume knob. You probably can't go pass 10 o'clock before getting unbearably loud and with clipping. This is the oldest trick in the book to make a weak amp sound powerfull. If it goes very loud early on the volume knob people get the impression it has more juice to it but they simply can't go further and fear damaging their speakers and hearing. The famous special Naim watts. 30 Naim watts = 300 Krell watts. Of course there are no hidden 270 watts, it's just an illusion they are there.

So Arcam takes a bit of volume knob turning to get as loud as a Naim amp, so this create the impression the Arcam is warmer, softer, duller. The Naim feel forward and brash when turned loud. Even if both amps measure very flat FR within their safe operating regime (sans clipping), they will still give the impression of different coloration.

If you own a 30W Naim amp, you will very likely go into clipping on occasions. So having speakers that are colored in their FR to be duller in the upper midrange and highs, this will soften the issue and you can really abuse the amp more.

Of course there is more to why Naim amps sound different, not just the input sensitivity thing, but that is typically what happens as significant factor making amps sound different from eachother IMO, aside from power, brand, price, looks and other factors. Naim amps are born from this and have low damping factor like valve amps, Class B biasing and few other quirks amps today don't have.

I think many amplifiers will have a single preamp (apart from any phono stage) and so the input sensitivity will be a compromise, sensitive enough for low output devices but not too sensitive for high output devices.

Chris

Devialet allow you to change the input sensitivity on Phono inputs from .2VRMS to 4.0VRMS. - Is this the way forward?

 

[Vladimir]

I just picked Arcam and Naim since they were already discussed in earlier threads about amp input sensitivity.

Ajani in his OP criticizes audiophile for their modus operandi. My contribution to this thread is an addendum. Not only audiophiles are fooling themselves, but also are being fooled by the manufacturers and the media. It's a regurgetating circular process.

So that means your poll of accuracy was in peoples head not what was actually happening with their system?

It was about what people aspire to. Do they really want the placebo as few but very vocal audiophiles like to point out, or do they want accuracy. Apparently most do want an accurate system. Are they getting their money's worth, different topic for a different poll.

Vlad, In light of the above, have you had a look at the configurator for Devialets on the Devialet website? If not, I think you'd be amazed at just how much you can configure the Amp to behave as you want it to. That, along with the lowest measured distortion figures and accuracy could mean this is Amp nirvana.

I bought one because I like the sound it makes. - Would this level of configurability (and its measured specs) make you consider one?

I like watching porn on the internet. I just don't talk about it much.

 

[Vladimir]

I think many amplifiers will have a single preamp (apart from any phono stage) and so the input sensitivity will be a compromise, sensitive enough for low output devices but not too sensitive for high output devices.

Chris

Actually amps have 3 typical input sensitivity options. Phono, Tape and Digital. From the top of my head, 5mV is good for MM phono, 150mV for tape, 1V for digital. This is what you will get from Arcam A19, minus the tape standard since all manufacturers are dropping it.

Marantz PM8005 has 2mV, 200mV.

Naim Supernait 2 + Superline goes 0.1mV/0.5mV/1mV, 130mV. Unitiqute has 270mV line.

The original Naim Nait 75mV line input. Plenty of Olive power there. Just no Popeye.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I just picked Arcam and Naim since they were already discussed in earlier threads about amp input sensitivity.

Ajani in his OP criticizes audiophile for their modus operandi. My contribution to this thread is an addendum. Not only audiophiles are fooling themselves, but also are being fooled by the manufacturers and the media. It's a regurgetating circular process.

So that means your poll of accuracy was in peoples head not what was actually happening with their system?

It was about what people aspire to. Do they really want the placebo as few but very vocal audiophiles like to point out, or do they want accuracy. Apparently most do want an accurate system. Are they getting their money's worth, different topic for a different poll.

Vlad, In light of the above, have you had a look at the configurator for Devialets on the Devialet website? If not, I think you'd be amazed at just how much you can configure the Amp to behave as you want it to. That, along with the lowest measured distortion figures and accuracy could mean this is Amp nirvana.

I bought one because I like the sound it makes. - Would this level of configurability (and its measured specs) make you consider one?

I like watching porn on the internet. I just don't talk about it much.

Um, OK. I wasn't expecting a straight answer anyway.

 

[manicm]

I just picked Arcam and Naim since they were already discussed in earlier threads about amp input sensitivity.?

Ajani in his OP criticizes audiophile for their modus operandi. My contribution to this thread is an addendum. Not only audiophiles are fooling themselves, but also are being fooled by the manufacturers and the media. It's a regurgetating circular process.?

So that means your poll of accuracy was in peoples head not what was actually happening with their system?

It was about what people aspire to. Do they really want the placebo/aproximation as few but very vocal audiophiles like to point out, or do they want accuracy. Apparently most do want an accurate system. Are they getting their money's worth, different topic for a different poll.

I'm not sure most people can say they want accuracy while they embrace MP3s or