HiFi - Imagination, Exaggeration and Colouration?

[Ajani]

In my opinion, most HiFi seems to falls along the scale of Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

At the base of the scale is Imagination; differences that are merely the result of audiophiles listening with their eyes, rather than their ears. This is common with just about anything you buy, knowing the price of a product will always have an impact on your assessment of its value. It's interesting that so many audiophiles are convinced that they are immune to any kind of price bias. We even suffer from technology bias, for some persons just seeing a digital source or a metal dome tweeter tells them that resulting music will be unsatisfying.

The middle of the scale is Exaggeration; All those "night and day" differences that audiophiles hear when they install new a new tweak/component in their system, but that would be a nightmare to detect in DBT. IMO, any difference that can't easily be detected in a DBT is eitther imagined or subtle. Hence why I see the claims about night and day and lifting a veil from over my system etc.. as serious exaggeration.

Finally at the end of the scale is Colouration; this is where "house sound" lives. The manfucaturer tailors the sound to appease particular tastes. These differences are real and generally not subtle. If all HiFi is aimed at being as accurate as possible, then why don't products start to sound similar at higher price ranges? Budget products will sound different simply because of the compromises required to achieve that low price. But as you reach statement prices, all the HiFi gear should start to sound more similar, as the compromises are no longer required. Yet we don't see people claiming that statement systems from Audio Note, Naim and ATC etc all sound similar.Shouldn't they all be getting closer to the goal of being accurate?

I think all these issues come about because there are no standards in HiFi (for either the playback or recording of music) Note: That issue was mentioned in an article on Sean Olive's blogspot.

I can sell a product that measures terribly and simply say "trust your ears". If someone mentions DBT, I can talk about how stressful DBT is and that you should just "trust your ears" (as long as it's during a sighted test). It doesn't matter if that person has never had his/her hearing tested. Whether that person even knows what to listen for.

Obviously there are many other factors that would make this discussion of the state of HiFi more complex and I don't believe that all HiFi is on the I->E->C scale, but frankly I think my post is long enough as it is. So feel free to comment. You can add on or tear down my theory as you please. This is meant to be a discussion, not a monologue.

 

[lindsayt]

Why don't components at higher price ranges sound similar?

Vinyl sources at higher price ranges of similar designs, eg high end direct drive turntables with rigid medium to high mass tonearms with very high quality bearings with low compliance MC cartridges do sound similar.

Digital sources at medium to high prices sound similar too.

Medium to high end amplifiers, including 300 watt monster solid state and 2 watt SET's sound similar into speakers that co-operate with the amplification. There are some subtle / icing on the cake differences in the midrange and bass.

High end speakers sound different because it's impossible to get a speaker that's best at everything. If you improve one aspect this inevitably leads to compromises in other areas. So for example lets say you start with a high end small 2 way ported speaker.

The bass lacks extension and impact. So you go 3 way and add a bass driver. This is at the expense of another crossover region and larger cabinets, making the imaging less pinpoint accurate.

The bass in the port area still doesn't start and stop like it should. So you use a larger bass driver and seal the box up. At the expense of the air inside the cabinet acting like a spring on the bass driver, compromising bass dynamics.

So you make your speaker cabinets huge. Which brings back bass dynamics. But almost no one wants to buy huge speakers and the imaging isn't as sharp as what we had from smaller cabinets.

You notice that your conventional coned or domed midrange driver in your huge 3 way speaker doesn't sound as dynamic as a high efficiency compression driver and horn. So you fit one of those and notice that the bass driver is much less efficient than your horned midrange. So you get an overly lean tonal balance.

So you fit a really huge bass cone into a huge horned enclosure to redress the tonal balance, but this huge driver won't go high up the frequency range before distorting. So you go 4 way with a ported upper bass driver. Which results in the upper bass not starting and stopping like it should. Plus you've got 3 crossover areas now. And a speaker that's so big that few people want to buy it. Even if you design it to sit right in the corner and use the corner of the room as an extension of the bass horn design.

So you decide to try something else completely different and go for an electrostatic design. Which gives you a truly magical midrange, where the speakers completely disappear.

Except that the electrostatics are dipoles and the rear radiating bass energy bounces off the rear wall and interferes with - ie reduce - the bass at certain frequencies. And they don't sound as dynamic as our horns did, especially at really loud volumes, when we have to be careful about arcing with our electrostatics. And we've still got large looking speakers.

Looking for a more room friendly speaker, you go for a small 2 way sealed box speaker, which can be put right against the rear wall. But the bass lacks extension and isn't dynamic. So you add a port to your small two way speaker...

 

[jmjones]

Hi Ajani,

There is some merit in what you say, but it's a matter of degree.

Imagination - In my case I do acknowledge that I'm influenced by branding, etc. I'm sat here in my Rohan t-shirt, Pringle socks & underwear with a MontBlanc pen in my hand. Are they better than a less costly alternative? Answer - sometimes. But the pen makes me feel good every time I use it. If I ever get knocked down by a bus, the undertaker wont think I'm a cheapskate. I don't have to justify a performance difference or feel guilty about it. My hifi isn't the only item I have spent money on just because of the way it looks or perceived quality.

Exaggeration - I would agree. The law of diminishing returns bites with a vengeance in hifi. But, how much is that next 1% worth to you? I've often thought that I would have to double the expenditure on a component to get a worthwhile improvement, then I've gone ahead and done it. On the other hand (and I'm not a cable snob), removing the bell wire from my first system made a hell of a difference. As with most hobbies and purchases, I do like to experiment and test before parting with my cash, then I'll bore everybody with how good it is.

Colouration - I could go on all day here. Isn't a signature sound the point? I don't like bass-heavy sound, and always test hifi with the same vocal track. No sub-woofer for me. Speakers in particular have a signature sound that can be loved or detested. Also, I don't subscribe to the "sounds like a live performance", unless you mean a guitar in my living room. I think my system has most live venues whupped. Accuracy? No thanks, I'll take enjoyment every time. Vive la difference!!

On the hearing front, I have had my hearing tested. The upper end of my hearing has "gone" due to my age and I exhibit mild effects of industrial deafness probably because I've worked in factories a lot. Does that affect my enjoyment of listening to music? No.

The psychological effects of any hobby are very important. Too many people spend time worrying about it rather than enjoying it. Hifi is one of the few things that isn't immoral illegal or fattening, so if it feels good.....

 

[Frank Harvey]

In my opinion, most HiFi seems to falls along the scale of Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

At the base of the scale is Imagination; differences that are merely the result of audiophiles listening with their eyes, rather than their ears. This is common with just about anything you buy, knowing the price of a product will always have an impact on your assessment of its value. It's interesting that so many audiophiles are convinced that they are immune to any kind of price bias. We even suffer from technology bias, for some persons just seeing a digital source or a metal dome tweeter tells them that resulting music will be unsatisfying.

I think this only applies to those who feel they should hear a difference, and rather than having the balls to straight up say they don't hear a difference, they claim the more expensive one does sound better. Otherwise, nonsense - why the hell would you pay out more money for something that you can't hear to be any different?

The middle of the scale is Exaggeration; All those "night and day" differences that audiophiles hear when they install new a new tweak/component in their system, but that would be a nightmare to detect in DBT. IMO, any difference that can't easily be detected in a DBT is eitther imagined or subtle. Hence why I see the claims about night and day and lifting a veil from over my system etc.. as serious exaggeration.

I think sometimes there are relatively small differences in the grand scheme of things that can make a huge difference to your interpretation of music. I know what I want to say here, but can't think how to effectively describe it.

Finally at the end of the scale is Colouration; this is where "house sound" lives. The manfucaturer tailors the sound to appease particular tastes. These differences are real and generally not subtle. If all HiFi is aimed at being as accurate as possible, then why don't products start to sound similar at higher price ranges? Budget products will sound different simply because of the compromises required to achieve that low price. But as you reach statement prices, all the HiFi gear should start to sound more similar, as the compromises are no longer required. Yet we don't see people claiming that statement systems from Audio Note, Naim and ATC etc all sound similar.Shouldn't they all be getting closer to the goal of being accurate?

If manufacturers all produced hi-fi that reproduced the signal as cleanly as possible, everything would sound the same. What are people going to buy then? The cheapest (even if it is inferior in some way). So manufacturers produce a house sound that distinguishes themselves from everybody else.

I can sell a product that measures terribly and simply say "trust your ears". If someone mentions DBT, I can talk about how stressful DBT is and that you should just "trust your ears" (as long as it's during a sighted test). It doesn't matter if that person has never had his/her hearing tested. Whether that person even knows what to listen for.

For the uninitiated, 'trusting your own ears' is probably the least stressful way of choosing hi-fi. It is no good sitting there forcing yourself to hear differences, because you won't hear them. You need to be relaxed, and listening to everything as a whole, rather than certain aspects of the sound (unless you're trying to assess certain aspects of course).

 

[Vladimir]

If manufacturers all produced hi-fi that reproduced the signal as cleanly as possible, everything would sound the same. What are people going to buy then?

They will have to listen to the music and not the hardware Frank. 😀

 

[Jota180]

I think we're pretty much at the stage where the digital inputs are at a pretty even level. Any amplifier designed to output as flat as possible and working within it's range with speakers it's comfortable with sound pretty similar. The place where the real sound difference lies is with speakers. If all speaker manufacturers were tasked with building a three way speaker of the same internal volume using the same crossover they still wouldn't all sound the same. Different driver materials sound differently.

Choosing HiFi from scratch I'd try to find the speakers I like for my room/music then match an amp to them (or buy active).

On the point about bias, there's shed loads of information on the internet about biases and how they affect people. If serious players like scientists do their utmost to remove all scope for bias from their work, that kind of tells you it's something that's recognised as a very real threat to conclusion making.

People like to think they're too clever to be affected by bias but ironically that's a very ignorant thing to believe.

 

[Ajani]

Hi Ajani,

There is some merit in what you say, but it's a matter of degree.

Imagination - In my case I do acknowledge that I'm influenced by branding, etc. I'm sat here in my Rohan t-shirt, Pringle socks & underwear with a MontBlanc pen in my hand. Are they better than a less costly alternative? Answer - sometimes. But the pen makes me feel good every time I use it. If I ever get knocked down by a bus, the undertaker wont think I'm a cheapskate. I don't have to justify a performance difference or feel guilty about it. My hifi isn't the only item I have spent money on just because of the way it looks or perceived quality.

Exaggeration - I would agree. The law of diminishing returns bites with a vengeance in hifi. But, how much is that next 1% worth to you? I've often thought that I would have to double the expenditure on a component to get a worthwhile improvement, then I've gone ahead and done it. On the other hand (and I'm not a cable snob), removing the bell wire from my first system made a hell of a difference. As with most hobbies and purchases, I do like to experiment and test before parting with my cash, then I'll bore everybody with how good it is.

Colouration - I could go on all day here. Isn't a signature sound the point? I don't like bass-heavy sound, and always test hifi with the same vocal track. No sub-woofer for me. Speakers in particular have a signature sound that can be loved or detested. Also, I don't subscribe to the "sounds like a live performance", unless you mean a guitar in my living room. I think my system has most live venues whupped. Accuracy? No thanks, I'll take enjoyment every time. Vive la difference!!

On the hearing front, I have had my hearing tested. The upper end of my hearing has "gone" due to my age and I exhibit mild effects of industrial deafness probably because I've worked in factories a lot. Does that affect my enjoyment of listening to music? No.

The psychological effects of any hobby are very important. Too many people spend time worrying about it rather than enjoying it. Hifi is one of the few things that isn't immoral illegal or fattening, so if it feels good.....

I probably should have mentioned in my initial post (but it was already rather long) that I don't see anything wrong with choosing to buy HiFi that you know is coloured, spending a lot of money for subtle differences or even spending extra for better finishes, luxurious build quality, features etc. All of that is a a personal choice and is common with luxury goods. I just think we're at the stage where we should call a spade a spade. So manufacturers should be held to basic standards / at least be relatively honest about what they are doing.

Instead of ignoring measurements, we should be looking for better ways to measure things. Some manufacturers provide almost no measurements, while others go way beyond simple frequency response and sensitivity. Minimal/no measurements are fine for art or wine, but for HiFi?

 

[Ajani]

Finally at the end of the scale is Colouration; this is where "house sound" lives. The manfucaturer tailors the sound to appease particular tastes. These differences are real and generally not subtle. If all HiFi is aimed at being as accurate as possible, then why don't products start to sound similar at higher price ranges? Budget products will sound different simply because of the compromises required to achieve that low price. But as you reach statement prices, all the HiFi gear should start to sound more similar, as the compromises are no longer required. Yet we don't see people claiming that statement systems from Audio Note, Naim and ATC etc all sound similar.Shouldn't they all be getting closer to the goal of being accurate?

If manufacturers all produced hi-fi that reproduced the signal as cleanly as possible, everything would sound the same. What are people going to buy then? The cheapest (even if it is inferior in some way). So manufacturers produce a house sound that distinguishes themselves from everybody else.

The challenge with producing a house sound is being honest about it. I don't think too many manufacturers will admit that they flavour the sound. More often they seem to claim that their gear is more accurate or, if it measures poorly, that it sounds more like live music.

 

[jmjones]

Would agree with the your measurements argument, although I'm not sure what else they may measure.

Most industries have quality and safety standards. It might surprise people how many legal and industry standards wine manufacturers have to comply with to get a bottle sold!!

All electrical goods we would expect to comply with safety standards. Quality standards for hifi? I don't know if there is anything.

Hey David, are there any quality standards or similar for the hifi manufacturers?

 

[Vladimir]

Jóhann Jóhannsson - IBM 1401: A User's Manual, for Orchestra & Tape

A heart warming music coming from cold and detached Iceland. I found the story behind this superb musical piece truly interesting.

This orchestral piece performed by Prague Philharmonic Orchestra is serving as a memorial of a 60's IBM computer brought as the first computer ever on Iceland and given for care and maintenance to the composer's father. Although the computer was never designed to play music, the father (also a trained musician) placed a radio near the memory electronic circuit because through the RF interference the computer caused audible noise on the radio. By controlling the strength and frequency of the RF noise through some basic programming, IBM 1401 could play music on the radio.

The composer used recorded tapes of the IBM 1401 playing music, also including the voice of an anonymous technical instructor's on how to take care of IBM 1401, and he built upon these raw artifacts with his emotions and memories. Very melodic and evocative piece, completely covered in the Icelandic signature melancholy.

I thoroughly enjoyed listening and recommend Johannsson's IBM 1401, A User's Manual to those that haven't.

Now, what tube or speaker cable should I use to make this recording more enjoyable because it makes me sad? 🙂

 

[Vladimir]

I think my system has most live venues whupped. Accuracy? No thanks, I'll take enjoyment every time. Vive la difference!!

When you say "Accuracy? No thanks." you are litteraly saying "F**k art. F**k Bach, Miles and Hendrix. Viva la me!!" 🙂 Of course you have every right to and I honestly don't judge anyone for it.

Often tutted saying is how hi-fi can never accurately reproduce real music. I disagree with the extent of pesimism which usually accompanies that. I think people forget how close we've come compared to 50, 100, 200 years ago. First recording technology was sheet music because before it "you had to be there". It had it's significant limitations though. Prior to electronic recording technology one could say it is a matter of opinion who plays Beethoven the right way, and if we are pedantic, really no one can, regardless to what complexity musical theory and its language was developed to. However, with recordings art is captured as is and we have the luxury to reproduce it in our homes. Some can afford a system that plays as loud and accurate like a real piano, and some will have an aproximation. All of it is huge step forward than just whistling a tune out of memory. Obviously some don't care for the real deal and prefer a version, but I doubt they contemplate about art and specifically music that much.

Now, another problematic saying in the audiophile culture. "Enjoying music". Where did one get the idea music is only for enjoying and it needs to give positive and pleasant feelings? That is incredibly limiting. Music can be sad, depressing, emotionless, cerebral, though provoking, scary, confusing, any human emotion in the spreadsheet really. Try listening to Stockhausen on a $3M hi-end system and tell me how enjoyable it was. Not much I bet. Or try listening some droning minimal. It may creep you out more than any death metal track or Steven King movie. Music is about many things, even 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence, recording of the wind swishing against power lines, or banging a hammer on untuned piano.

If you think I'm BS-ing you, I asure you I listen to music that I don't enjoy one bit, in fact it can be agonizing or confusing or anything but enjoyable and nice.

 

[Covenanter]

Jóhann Jóhannsson - IBM 1401: A User's Manual, for Orchestra & Tape

A heart warming music coming from cold and detached Iceland. I found the story behind this superb musical piece truly interesting.This orchestral piece performed by Prague Philharmonic Orchestra is serving as a memorial of a 60's IBM computer brought as the first computer ever on Iceland and given for care and maintenance to the composer's father. Although the computer was never designed to play music, the father (also a trained musician) placed a radio near the memory electronic circuit because through the RF interference the computer caused audible noise on the radio. By controlling the strength and frequency of the RF noise through some basic programming, IBM 1401 could play music on the radio.The composer used recorded tapes of the IBM 1401 playing music, also including the voice of an anonymous technical instructor's on how to take care of IBM 1401, and he built upon these raw artifacts with his emotions and memories. Very melodic and evocative piece, completely covered in the Icelandic signature melancholy.I thoroughly enjoyed listening and recommend Johannsson's IBM 1401, A User's Manual to those that haven't.

Now, what tube or speaker cable should I use to make this recording more enjoyable because it makes me sad? 🙂

I would recommend listening to this without speaker cables.

Chris

 

[Vladimir]

I would recommend listening to this without speaker cables.

Didn't you work for the competition? 😉

 

[Ajani]

I would recommend listening to this without speaker cables.

Chris

Agreed. When I want to hear music at its raw and purest expression:

 

[Vladimir]

I would recommend listening to this without speaker cables.

Chris

Agreed. When I want to hear music at its raw and purest expression:

Electron microscope slow-motion video of vinyl LP.

 

[Ajani]

Why don't components at higher price ranges sound similar?

Vinyl sources at higher price ranges of similar designs, eg high end direct drive turntables with rigid medium to high mass tonearms with very high quality bearings with low compliance MC cartridges do sound similar.

Digital sources at medium to high prices sound similar too.

Medium to high end amplifiers, including 300 watt monster solid state and 2 watt SET's sound similar into speakers that co-operate with the amplification. There are some subtle / icing on the cake differences in the midrange and bass.

High end speakers sound different because it's impossible to get a speaker that's best at everything. If you improve one aspect this inevitably leads to compromises in other areas. So for example lets say you start with a high end small 2 way ported speaker.

The bass lacks extension and impact. So you go 3 way and add a bass driver. This is at the expense of another crossover region and larger cabinets, making the imaging less pinpoint accurate.

The bass in the port area still doesn't start and stop like it should. So you use a larger bass driver and seal the box up. At the expense of the air inside the cabinet acting like a spring on the bass driver, compromising bass dynamics.

So you make your speaker cabinets huge. Which brings back bass dynamics. But almost no one wants to buy huge speakers and the imaging isn't as sharp as what we had from smaller cabinets.

You notice that your conventional coned or domed midrange driver in your huge 3 way speaker doesn't sound as dynamic as a high efficiency compression driver and horn. So you fit one of those and notice that the bass driver is much less efficient than your horned midrange. So you get an overly lean tonal balance.

So you fit a really huge bass cone into a huge horned enclosure to redress the tonal balance, but this huge driver won't go high up the frequency range before distorting. So you go 4 way with a ported upper bass driver. Which results in the upper bass not starting and stopping like it should. Plus you've got 3 crossover areas now. And a speaker that's so big that few people want to buy it. Even if you design it to sit right in the corner and use the corner of the room as an extension of the bass horn design.

So you decide to try something else completely different and go for an electrostatic design. Which gives you a truly magical midrange, where the speakers completely disappear.

Except that the electrostatics are dipoles and the rear radiating bass energy bounces off the rear wall and interferes with - ie reduce - the bass at certain frequencies. And they don't sound as dynamic as our horns did, especially at really loud volumes, when we have to be careful about arcing with our electrostatics. And we've still got large looking speakers.

Looking for a more room friendly speaker, you go for a small 2 way sealed box speaker, which can be put right against the rear wall. But the bass lacks extension and isn't dynamic. So you add a port to your small two way speaker...

Interesting points. I would expect some differences to remain, but things should start to converge far more than they do.

Whether you use Vinyl or Digital should make little/no difference at statement prices. Likewise SET/SS. Even speakers should start to converge.

Really really really large Elecrostats can produce full range sound (bass), but that's at statement prices:

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/ultimate-px.html

The only major difference in speakers should be if you opt to create small, room friendly designs. But at statement prices, the expectation is generally that you should have a mansion anyway, so no need to design hifi to fit a 3.5 x 3 M space.

 

[jmjones]

Hi Vlad,

When I'm talking about venues, I'm meaning the ones I usually encounter. Take a night at Manchester students union and tell me if it sounds better than a good home set up. Usually it doesn't. Noisy distorted racket. On the other hand "live music" being one person with a guitar right in front of me, or an orchestra without amplification, blows me (and my hifi) away. I like to listen to Miles, Bach AND Hendrix, but some of them are difficult to hear live, and that is where my hifi comes in. I'm not saying F*** anybody. My system enables me to enjoy them all. You are dead right on one aspect - the technology facilitates the performance.

As for enjoyable - don't people enjoy listening to sad music? Bit of a blues man myself.

 

[Vladimir]

Hi Vlad,

When I'm talking about venues, I'm meaning the ones I usually encounter. Take a night at Manchester students union and tell me if it sounds better than a good home set up. Usually it doesn't. Noisy distorted racket. On the other hand "live music" being one person with a guitar right in front of me, or an orchestra without amplification, blows me (and my hifi) away. I like to listen to Miles, Bach AND Hendrix, but some of them are difficult to hear live, and that is where my hifi comes in. I'm not saying F*** anybody. My system enables me to enjoy them all. You are dead right on one aspect - the technology facilitates the performance.

As for enjoyable - don't people enjoy listening to sad music? Bit of a blues man myself.

Missed my point. What if music is a noisy distorted racket? Should I switch to valve amps to make it pleasant?

 

[jmjones]

Why would you do that? What if the next track isn't meant to be distorted? If it's meant to be that way, good luck. Your decision then is if you want to listen to it or not. My point is that it is rare amplified live music beats a good home system - that's one of the reasons why I've got one, and it has been developed over the years to give me the best match to my taste.

Happy listening!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

In my opinion, most HiFi seems to falls along the scale of Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.?

At the base of the scale is Imagination; differences that are merely the result of audiophiles listening with their eyes, rather than their ears. This is common with just about anything you buy, knowing the price of a product will always have an impact on your assessment of its value. It's interesting that so many audiophiles are convinced that they are immune to any kind of price bias. We even suffer from technology bias, for some persons just seeing a digital source or a metal dome tweeter tells them that resulting music will be unsatisfying.?

The middle of the scale is Exaggeration; All those "night and day" differences that audiophiles hear when they install new a new tweak/component in their system, but that would be a nightmare to detect in DBT. IMO, any difference that can't easily be detected in a DBT is eitther imagined or subtle. Hence why I see the claims about night and day and lifting a veil from over my system etc.. as serious exaggeration.?

Finally at the end of the scale is Colouration; this is where "house sound" lives. The manfucaturer tailors the sound to appease particular tastes. These differences are real and generally not subtle. If all HiFi is aimed at being as accurate as possible, then why don't products start to sound similar at higher price ranges? Budget products will sound different simply because of the compromises required to achieve that low price. But as you reach statement prices, all the HiFi gear should start to sound more similar, as the compromises are no longer required. Yet we don't see people claiming that statement systems from Audio Note, Naim and ATC etc all sound similar.Shouldn't they all be getting closer to the goal of being accurate?

?

I think all these issues come about because there are no standards in HiFi (for either the playback or recording of music) Note: That issue was mentioned in an article on Sean Olive's blogspot.

I can sell a product that measures terribly and simply say "trust your ears". If someone mentions DBT, I can talk about how stressful DBT is and that you should just "trust your ears" (as long as it's during a sighted test). It doesn't matter if that person has never had his/her hearing tested. Whether that person even knows what to listen for.?

Obviously there are many other factors that would make this discussion of the state of HiFi more complex and I don't believe that all HiFi is on the I->E->C scale, but frankly I think my post is long enough as it is. So feel free to comment. You can add on or tear down my theory as you please. This is meant to be a discussion, not a monologue.

Naaaah!

Imagination of differences can only apply after 1 or 2 listens. After that any differences 'heard' are real.

Living with a change will identify changes even if the 'details' regards what is different eludes the listener. The visual stimuli will wear off.

Maybe people exaggerate the differences heard but subtle changes can affect one's enjoyment of a piece - refer to the loudness debate to see how big a deal subtle changes can make.

The coloration thing makes no sense with ref your other points - i.e is it real? , ones imagination?.....or what?

How a product measures is the least of any perspective buyer worries - all the R&D is done in the lab long before a product hits the shelves, how it sounds matters far more importantly making listening the defacto point of reference. Regardless of the quality of the listeners hearing. Ultimately that's THE most important ingredient in this hobby.

Ultimately standards in hifi are not required - many folk have cobbled together their own 'systems' with more than satisfactory results to them - check out the history of recording studios, PA's and even the history of recording artist through the years......include radio broadcast too.

Sorry but the opinion is skewed simply because there are no set rules to this hobby. A step outside of your personnel bubble me thinks is in order...... 🙂

 

[Ajani]

Hi Vlad,

When I'm talking about venues, I'm meaning the ones I usually encounter. Take a night at Manchester students union and tell me if it sounds better than a good home set up. Usually it doesn't. Noisy distorted racket. On the other hand "live music" being one person with a guitar right in front of me, or an orchestra without amplification, blows me (and my hifi) away. I like to listen to Miles, Bach AND Hendrix, but some of them are difficult to hear live, and that is where my hifi comes in. I'm not saying F*** anybody. My system enables me to enjoy them all. You are dead right on one aspect - the technology facilitates the performance.

As for enjoyable - don't people enjoy listening to sad music? Bit of a blues man myself.

Missed my point. What if music is a noisy distorted racket? Should I switch to valve amps to make it pleasant?

Obviously not. I expect better of you Vlad. You know the solution is toss away that nonsense and only listen to audiophile approved recordings.

 

[Vladimir]

Why would you do that? What if the next track isn't meant to be distorted? If it's meant to be that way, good luck. Your decision then is if you want to listen to it or not. My point is that it is rare amplified live music beats a good home system - that's one of the reasons why I've got one, and it has been developed over the years to give me the best match to my taste.

Happy listening!

But Stockhausen's Kontakte wasn't made by a typical live band with musicians.

 

[jmjones]

She says there's no way I'd get away with all that kit in our living room. I am considering a bigger rack unit. Obviously back on the "Imagination" part of this thread!!

 

[Ajani]

The coloration thing makes no sense with ref your other points - i.e is it real? , ones imagination?.....or what?

It's a scale: No differences --> Subtle differences --> Larger differences

Hence: Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

Seems simple enough to follow.

Sorry but the opinion is skewed simply because there are no set rules to this hobby. A step outside of your personnel bubble me thinks is in order...... 🙂

I think the same is as true (if not more so) for you. Why do you just accept that no rules is a good thing?

 

[Vladimir]

She says there's no way I'd get away with all that kit in our living room. I am considering a bigger rack unit. Obviously back on the "Imagination" part of this thread!!

Damn. Those R2Rs and HP tone generators are tasty.

However...

Imagination --> Wife --> Imagination