help needed for a novice to understand how to get dolby true hd and dts hd master sound from blueray out of your amp???

[admin_exported]

hi i am completley novice and dot quite understand so pls help

i read in 1 other forum that u cannot get dolby true hd or dts hd master sound if your blue ray player is connected with a optical cable to your amp? is this true? if so then how are u suppose to get true hd sound? by using a digital coaxal cable?

i am upgrading my tv to a full 1080p hd tv and a blue ray player and also to buy a amp that does 7.1, so i want to try to create full hd not jut in picture but also in sound.

and excuse my ignorance like i said earlier i dont really know alot but what is pcm?? is that optical connection? and what is (i think) lpcm

thanks and i appreciate if some 1 could just explain it all to me and how to achieve it thnkas again

 

[Anonymous]

[*]ÿ
To get True HD you need either an amp or a BluRay player which can decode it.

The easiest solution id probably to buy an amp that does HDÿaudioÿ(Yamaha 863, Denon 1909, Sony 2400, Onkyo 606 etc etc) and connect the BluRay via HDMI. All those amps will support 7.1 (as will many cheaper ones).ÿ

The other option is to buy a BluRay that decodes HD audio itself (e.g. Panasonic BD5 or Sony 550) and then any amp will be fine, although the connection is not digital but standard audio/phone cables. ÿ

 

[nads]

to sum up.

If you want HD sound there are only two ways to send it from the player to the amp.

Analogue cables (player decodes) or HDMI (player and/or Amp can decode).

optical and coax can not do it.

 

[Anonymous]

There are varoius ways to get hd sound ie dolby True HD or DTS MA first of all you a need a blu ray player that decodes the hd sound onboard and sends it to the amp as PCM or sends the sound as bitsream format and the amp decodes the sound itself. There is no difference in sound quality between these two methods. Practically all blu ray players on the market (except the PS3 which decodes the sound on board) now are able to bitstream hd sound.Regarding amps,from £250 onwards you should be able get on which can decode all the HD sound formats (my Sony STRDG820 cost me £240 and does this and sounds great). If your Blu ray player decodes the HD sound all you need is an amp which handle PCM by HDMI or 5.1 or 7.1 analoge connections depending on how your blu player sends the decoded sound. By the way the only connections that pass hd sound are HDMI and a 5.1 or 7.1 anolage connections not optical the sound would be down converted to dolby digital or DTS. Only the the top end blu ray players have 5.1 or 7.1 analoge connections obvously all have HDMI connections( if your Blu ray player has both you can choose which way you want to send the sound depending on the connections on your amp)

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for explaining to me that u can only get hd sound from hdmi or a blue ray player that decodes and then connected to an amp via phono cables to get 5.1 or 7.1!(anologue)

is there any benefit or diffrence in sound quality between these 2 diffrent connections?

my 2nd question is : they say "that try to get a direct conection from the device straight into the tv, or into amp with out splitting the connection too much", (i.e) connect blue ray straight into tv for picture so no lose in picture quality, and sound diffrent cable but straight into amp, so no lose in sound quality! so if hdmi is the only way getting true hd sound then this is contradicting the saying!! what are your thoughts on this????????????

3rd question: if we go down the root of connecting the hdmi cable into the amp and from amp into tv, then what about if i get sky hd or freesat?and want to watch some normal channels!, does that mean i have to have the amp allways on to get sound? as some times i would want sound just comming out of the tv speakers.

final questions: that means 2 hdmi cables for blue ray player!!!! so £60.00 or above to connect blueray into amp, then £60 or above again from amp into tv!! ouch!!!!!!!!! thats £120.00 or more just to get your blueray player going too get truehad sound!!?? thats alot of money

any suggestions or ideas pls, thanks again for your comments

 

[Anonymous]

ismalj:
thanks for explaining to me that u can only get hd sound from hdmi or a blue ray player that decodes and then connected to an amp via phono cables to get 5.1 or 7.1!(anologue)

is there any benefit or diffrence in sound quality between these 2 diffrent connections?

my 2nd question is :ÿÿÿ ÿthey say "that try to get a direct conection from the device straight into the tv, or into amp with outÿsplitting the connection too much", ÿ(i.e) connect blue ray straight into tv for picture so no lose in pictureÿquality, and sound diffrent cable butÿstraight into amp, so no lose in sound quality! so if hdmi is the only way getting true hd sound then this isÿcontradicting the saying!!ÿ what are your thoughts on this????????????

3rd question:ÿÿÿÿ if we go down the root of connecting the hdmi cable into the amp and from amp into tv, then what about if i get sky hd or freesat?and want to watch some normal channels!, ÿdoes that mean i have to have the amp allways on to get sound? as some times i would want sound just comming out of the tv speakers.

final questions: that means 2 hdmi cables for blue ray player!!!! so £60.00 or above to connect blueray into amp, then £60 or above again from amp into tv!! ouch!!!!!!!!! thats £120.00 or moreÿjust to get your blueray player going too get truehad sound!!?? thats alot of money

ÿ

any suggestions or ideas pls, thanks again for your comments

ÿ

With most modern receivers, you have several HDMI input connectors on the receiver. The idea is usually to connect BluRay, Sky and any other HD devices into those connectors, then have one HDMI going out to the TV. That means you would use the receiver to watch/listen to TV as well as watch BluRay. That is what I do.

Some people prefer to connect the BluRay directly to the TV, which is fine too. ÿ

As far as HDMI versus analogue for BluRay, that depends on what the spec of the BluRay and receiver are. If you have:

(1) a BluRay that decodes HD Audio and a recever that doesn't, you must use analogue to get HD Audio.

(2) If the BluRay does not decode HD Audio but the receiver does, you must use HDMI.

(3) If both decode, you have a choice.

(4) If neither, you have no choice - you won't get True HD either way.

The choice between connections depends on the quality of the components. I would say that if you have to buy a new receiver, you really should buy one with HD Audio. That then allows you to buy a BluRay without HD Audio decoding, and in that case you are in option (2). If you already have the devices and you have a very good receiver, perhaps option (1) is a better choice. If both are HD Audio compatible, why not try both and see which you prefer? Chances are that both options will be great.

You don't have to spend £60 on every HDMI, especially if the lengths needed are not long (say up to 2m). I would say £30 is enough. ÿ

ÿ

 

[Lost Angeles]

ismalj:

3rd question: if we go down the root of connecting the hdmi cable into the amp and from amp into tv, then what about if i get sky hd or freesat?and want to watch some normal channels!, does that mean i have to have the amp allways on to get sound? as some times i would want sound just comming out of the tv speakers.

any suggestions or ideas pls, thanks again for your comments

To answer question 3 I've got a Freesat box and run an HDMI cable to my receiver which we use if we watch HD but I also feed a component cable and 2 RCAs direct to my TV so if the wife wants to watch Coro etc she does it this way.

I also feed Sky straight into my TV as we do not have the Sky HD package

 

[Anonymous]

found this info that might be useful

Seems like this question is asked a lot, or inquired about often in the forums. So let me take a second and give a little explanation on the various new audio formats currently found on Bluray discs and what you need in order to listen to them.

Lossless audio is the new generation of audio found in the HT world today thanks in part to HD-DVD and Blu-ray, and can basically be described as audio that is "bit-for-bit identical to the Studio Master". Meaning you should hear every musical note as it was recorded and how the director intended its use. To sum it up...it's better than being at the movie theater. (With the right setup of course

)

What is it?

High-Def FAQ: Blu-ray and HD DVD Audio Explained

Uncompressed PCM
Dolby TrueHD
Dts-HD Master

So what is the right setup??

Before I go any further, I would like to note that Optical and Digital Coaxial cables are insufficient and will only transmit 2.0 PCM audio. In other words, only stereo...they are not capable of delivering Lossless 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound.

**If you are using an Optical cable or Digital Coax cable, you should have your Player set to Bitstream to avoid any issues.

The only way to hear 5.1/7.1 Uncompressed PCM, Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD Master is to use either an HDMI or Multichannel Analog cable.

Now this is where it can get kinda confusing...but easy to understand after you think about it...

What is Linear PCM? ...and What is Bitstream??

In laymans terms...think of it this way:

Linear PCM is used when the audio is decoded inside the Player first, and then sent to the Receiver.

Bitstream, is used when the Player does not touch the audio...instead it is left in its raw form and sent to the Receiver, where it is then decoded by the Receiver.

To make a long story short, its just two ways to transfer audio from the Player to Receiver...just a different route taken and theoretically the same in the end.

With that being said let me start off with Multichannel Analog, as its pretty easy concept to understand.


Multichannel Analog

To hear Lossless audio through Multichannel Analog, you need a Player that has Internal decoding capability and Multichannel Analog outputs. (every Bluray player I can think of has these outputs except for the PS3) paired with any Receiver that has multichannel analog inputs.

Each channel is transferred through a single standard RCA cable. So for a 5.1 setup, you would need 6 single RCA cables.(for 7.1 setup you would need 8).

Also, If it cannot be decoded by the player, then you will not hear that specific codec. For example, the Sony BD-S1 can internally decode Dolby TrueHD. But it cannot decode Dts-HD Master. So with the multichannel analog connection, you could hear TrueHD but not Dts-HD Master (only the "core").

NOTE: You may (?) need to do an additional calibration to your speakers as this route can potentially bypass your Receivers automatic calibartion system. Speaker configuration can be found in the Players system settings.

HDMI



Using an HDMI connection is more simple in that it only requires one single cable. But there are some speedbumps (if you will) to its use.

First, you can transfer Lossless audio over an HDMI cable in either Linear PCM or Bitstream format.

In order to utilize Linear PCM through HDMI...you must have an HDMI v1.1 (or higher) Receiver that accepts HDMI audio. Also your Player must be able to decode the formats Internally. Everything that can, will be decoded inside the Player first and sent to the Receiver. It will also be displayed as "PCM" or "Multichannel" on the Receiver.

Bitstream through HDMI is a little trickier as it requires that you have all hdmi v1.3 connections. The Player must be HDMI v1.3 compliant and posses the ability to Bitstream the Lossless audio signal (not all players do) and you must have a Receiver that is HDMI v1.3 compliant that can decode the audio formats as well. This will be displayed on the Receiver with its natural format name...ex. "Dolby TrueHD"

Additional Info:

*List of BD Players that can Internally decode (LPCM) or send as Bitstream

*List of Bluray Movies by Audio Format

Have an old school receiver (non-HDMI) and want Lossless audio??
High-Def FAQ: Uncompressed vs. Lossless Audio
Wikipedia.com: Surround Sound
Dolby TrueHD
Dts HD-Master
HDMI v1.3 New Capabilities
HDMI.org : FAQ's
Get uncompressed PCM 5.1/7.1 audio from your PS3!
High-Def FAQ: Blu-ray and HD DVD Audio Explained
Audio and the PS3

 

[The_Lhc]

mjtoal:ismalj:
3rd question: if we go down the root of connecting the hdmi cable into the amp and from amp into tv, then what about if i get sky hd or freesat?and want to watch some normal channels!, does that mean i have to have the amp allways on to get sound?

With most modern receivers, you have several HDMI input connectors on the receiver. The idea is usually to connect BluRay, Sky and any other HD devices into those connectors, then have one HDMI going out to the TV. That means you would use the receiver to watch/listen to TV as well as watch BluRay. That is what I do.

I believe for SkyHD this is NOT the preferred way to do it, because the Sky box does not provided surround sound through the HDMI output, only Stereo. If you want 5.1 surround from SkyHD you MUST use the optical digital connection. So plug the Sky HDMI straight into the TV and the optical connection into the amp for when you want to watch anything that has a 5.1 soundtrack. This also allows you to use the TV speakers when you're just watching "ordinary" TV as you'd expect.

And before you ask, SkyHD only provides basic Dolby Digital 5.1 surround, not TrueHD, so using the optical connection isn't an issue.

 

[Sorreltiger]

If you want to be able to watch TV WITHOUT using the amp, you're correct. ÿHowever, if you want to simplify matters and do away with the TV remote, routing everything through the amp, then the original answer was the right one. ÿUsing something like the Harmony One remote, the whole system is suddenly 'family friendly'! ÿIt's just a matter of personal preference.

 

[The_Lhc]

Sorreltiger:If you want to be able to watch TV WITHOUT using the amp, you're correct. However, if you want to simplify matters and do away with the TV remote, routing everything through the amp, then the original answer was the right one. Using something like the Harmony One remote, the whole system is suddenly 'family friendly'! It's just a matter of personal preference.

Well yes that's fine, as long as you're happy that you can't watch TV without the amp and, in the case of SkyHD, you'd still have to connect the optical connection to the amp as well as the HDMI, otherwise you'll only get stereo, not 5.1.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:mjtoal:ismalj:
3rd question:ÿÿÿÿ if we go down the root of connecting the hdmi cable into the amp and from amp into tv, then what about if i get sky hd or freesat?and want to watch some normal channels!, ÿdoes that mean i have to have the amp allways on to get sound?ÿ

With most modern receivers, you have several HDMI input connectors on the receiver. The idea is usually to connect BluRay, Sky and any other HD devices into those connectors, then have one HDMI going out to the TV. That means you would use the receiver to watch/listen to TV as well as watch BluRay. That is what I do.

I believe for SkyHD this is NOT the preferred way to do it, because the Sky box does not provided surround sound through the HDMI output, only Stereo. If you want 5.1 surround from SkyHD you MUST use the optical digital connection. So plug the Sky HDMI straight into the TV and the optical connection into the amp for when you want to watch anything that has a 5.1 soundtrack. This also allows you to use the TV speakers when you're just watching "ordinary" TV as you'd expect.

And before you ask, SkyHD only provides basic Dolby Digital 5.1 surround, not TrueHD, so using the optical connection isn't an issue.

ÿ

Thank you. I did know that, which was an oversight in a lengthyÿmessage, and have precisely that connection. However it remains true that a HDMI can still go to the AVR from the Sky HD box. An optical /coaxial cable can also be used with the setting for the Sat box in the AVR menu to use the optical/coaxial for the audio connection. It is notÿnecessaryÿto connect the HDMI from the Sky HD directly to the TV,ÿalthoughÿsome may prefer to do so.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi

If you want easy true hd sound with the option of 2.1 or 5.1 & 7.1 the the onkyo thx22dh that Im using will do just that but an aditional small amp will be needed for the centre rear two channels but decoding is done by the main unit .

The sound is very good when a bit of time is taken to get all the settings right fot your room but Im only running 5.1 at the moment but have used it as 7.1 just to see what it would do . Am saving for the extra channel amp & speakers .

Hope this helps

kev

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

Based on all of the above - Am i correct in this statement.

If was going to buy the Yam 863 (1.3a) but am now considering the Yam 861 (1.2a) at over half the price because I am using a PS3 as a BD player.

As PS3 must decode audio and transmit via LPCM, then the 1.3a is not required and 1.2a will provide the same audio quality.

I do not want to pay double the money if it is not giving me anything while using a PS3 which cannot transit bitstream.

Is this assumption correct?

Will there be any PQ loss running the signal the the TV through the 1.2a amp.

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Hi

I dont think there will be much point in going for the more expensive yam until you go for a dedicated bd player & connect it all using HDMI

bd to reciver ( sound ) to tv screen using good hdmi leads between each unit .

True hd & DTS hd will not be put out by a ps3 I think ( this is only an assumption as have never owned one ) .

does this help .

 

[professorhat]

So long as the 861 accepts LPCM over HDMI (which I'm pretty sure the 1.2 spec means it will), this will work fine for the PS3. It will limit your options if you ever want to upgrade your Blu-Ray player to one that also decodes onboard, but so long as you are happy with that, this will be fine.
However, I somehow doubt the only difference between the 861 model and the 863 model is the HDMI spec - it may be wise to audition both first to make sure you actually think the 861 sounds good enough. It might be worth looking at the 763 as well. An upgrade of components may produce the same spec sheet but can make the world of difference to the sound...

 

[Anonymous]

mike4scuba:

found this info that might be useful

Seems like this question is asked a lot, or inquired about often in the forums. So let me take a second and give a little explanation on the various new audio formats currently found on Bluray discs and what you need in order to listen to them.

Lossless audio is the new generation of audio found in the HT world today thanks in part to HD-DVD and Blu-ray, and can basically be described as audio that is "bit-for-bit identical to the Studio Master". Meaning you should hear every musical note as it was recorded and how the director intended its use. To sum it up...it's better than being at the movie theater. (With the right setup of course

)

What is it?

High-Def FAQ: Blu-ray and HD DVD Audio Explained

Uncompressed PCM
Dolby TrueHD
Dts-HD Master

So what is the right setup??

Before I go any further, I would like to note that Optical and Digital Coaxial cables are insufficient and will only transmit 2.0 PCM audio. In other words, only stereo...they are not capable of delivering Lossless 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound.

**If you are using an Optical cable or Digital Coax cable, you should have your Player set to Bitstream to avoid any issues.

The only way to hear 5.1/7.1 Uncompressed PCM, Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD Master is to use either an HDMI or Multichannel Analog cable.

Now this is where it can get kinda confusing...but easy to understand after you think about it...

What is Linear PCM? ...and What is Bitstream??

In laymans terms...think of it this way:

Linear PCM is used when the audio is decoded inside the Player first, and then sent to the Receiver.

Bitstream, is used when the Player does not touch the audio...instead it is left in its raw form and sent to the Receiver, where it is then decoded by the Receiver.

To make a long story short, its just two ways to transfer audio from the Player to Receiver...just a different route taken and theoretically the same in the end.

With that being said let me start off with Multichannel Analog, as its pretty easy concept to understand.


Multichannel Analog

To hear Lossless audio through Multichannel Analog, you need a Player that has Internal decoding capability and Multichannel Analog outputs. (every Bluray player I can think of has these outputs except for the PS3) paired with any Receiver that has multichannel analog inputs.

Each channel is transferred through a single standard RCA cable. So for a 5.1 setup, you would need 6 single RCA cables.(for 7.1 setup you would need 8).

Also, If it cannot be decoded by the player, then you will not hear that specific codec. For example, the Sony BD-S1 can internally decode Dolby TrueHD. But it cannot decode Dts-HD Master. So with the multichannel analog connection, you could hear TrueHD but not Dts-HD Master (only the "core").

NOTE: You may (?) need to do an additional calibration to your speakers as this route can potentially bypass your Receivers automatic calibartion system. Speaker configuration can be found in the Players system settings.

HDMI



Using an HDMI connection is more simple in that it only requires one single cable. But there are some speedbumps (if you will) to its use.

First, you can transfer Lossless audio over an HDMI cable in either Linear PCM or Bitstream format.

In order to utilize Linear PCM through HDMI...you must have an HDMI v1.1 (or higher) Receiver that accepts HDMI audio. Also your Player must be able to decode the formats Internally. Everything that can, will be decoded inside the Player first and sent to the Receiver. It will also be displayed as "PCM" or "Multichannel" on the Receiver.

Bitstream through HDMI is a little trickier as it requires that you have all hdmi v1.3 connections. The Player must be HDMI v1.3 compliant and posses the ability to Bitstream the Lossless audio signal (not all players do) and you must have a Receiver that is HDMI v1.3 compliant that can decode the audio formats as well. This will be displayed on the Receiver with its natural format name...ex. "Dolby TrueHD"

Additional Info:

*List of BD Players that can Internally decode (LPCM) or send as Bitstream

*List of Bluray Movies by Audio Format

Have an old school receiver (non-HDMI) and want Lossless audio??
High-Def FAQ: Uncompressed vs. Lossless Audio
Wikipedia.com: Surround Sound
Dolby TrueHD
Dts HD-Master
HDMI v1.3 New Capabilities
HDMI.org : FAQ's
Get uncompressed PCM 5.1/7.1 audio from your PS3!
High-Def FAQ: Blu-ray and HD DVD Audio Explained
Audio and the PS3

Thankyou so much for this info, it ha cleared every thing up for me and i kinda totally understand now!, and thanks to all others too every 1 has been a gret help.

i am going to buy everything i havent got any amp or blueray player or lcd tv , i was so confused on this whole sound field that i didnt know what to do or buy, but now i kind of understand, i will know what to look out for when i go out and buy.!

last question! : - would u say that there is a diffrence in sound quality or benefits between linear pcm and bitstream format ?

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys.

So I think I have resolved the question whether I need the 1.3a capacity and I don't as I will not be buying a dedicated BD player - the PS3 is brand new and will be my BD player going forward.

But I do agree with you Professor hat, that while the spec maybe the same for my requirements the sound maybe quite different. I did also consider that and that is my next research.

On paper I would probably choose the 861 vs the 763, only because it is technically a £699 higher spec amp on sale for £250 so sounds much better value than a lower spec but highly regarded £400 amp (albeit 1.3a which I don't need) available for the more expensive approx £300.

But that said I would like to see some evidence on the 861s quality as I will not be able to sound check this. The 861 is off the market at this stage and only on sale at very few suppliers.

But it is pulling me in.

Thanks, Mark

 

[professorhat]

I can see where you're coming from, but my guess is the 861 is an older model Yamaha (I may be wrong here, I can't seem to find it on their website) and it's only the latest batch of amps e.g. the 863 and 763 which have lit the WHF teams fire. If this is the case, if you're looking for an older model, one of the older Denons or Onkyos might offer better value for money in terms of sound quality.
Worth waiting for a few days I would say and see if the WHF team had any experience of the 861 and can comment.