Harbeth - great soeakers but possibly the worst customer experience

[Om]

This is my personal experience.

The speakers are wonderful and the best money can buy, not just in their price range but possibly from the entire range of home hifi speakers ever made.

But, registering for the User Group run by the manufacturer is the worst mistake a customer can ever make. Unless one is prepared to either accept all of the unsolicited wisdom without questioning or be happy to be ridiculed for making subjective observations.

 

[Om]

hi,

i cannot somehow edit the title of the post. Please can you correct the spelling of "speakers"? Thanks

 

[Vladimir]

Yep. That's what pretty much what everyone else reported coming from that forum.

 

[Anderson]

Do you want to give an example?

 

[Om]

Do you want to give an example?

No. I would not like to quote an example without context.

I can only talk about how I felt. I had the feeling that it is possibly the only user forum run by a manufacturer where customers are patronised, rebuked and ridiculed for asking questions or making obsevations that do not agree with the world-view of a small core group of disciples

 

[chebby]

Do you want to give an example?

No. I would not like to quote an example without context.

I can only talk about how I felt. I had the feeling that it is possibly the only user forum run by a manufacturer where customers are patronised, rebuked and ridiculed for asking questions or making obsevations that do not agree with the world-view of a small core group of disciples

So you've not seen the Naim or AVI forums?

 

[Vladimir]

Do you want to give an example?

No. I would not like to quote an example without context.

I can only talk about how I felt. I had the feeling that it is possibly the only user forum run by a manufacturer where customers are patronised, rebuked and ridiculed for asking questions or making obsevations that do not agree with the world-view of a small core group of disciples

So you've not seen the Naim or AVI forums?

Those are trully horrid. Not that far away from a scientology forum.

 

[bigboss]

Do you want to give an example?

No. I would not like to quote an example without context.

I can only talk about how I felt. I had the feeling that it is possibly the only user forum run by a manufacturer where customers are patronised, rebuked and ridiculed for asking questions or making obsevations that do not agree with the world-view of a small core group of disciples

So you've not seen the Naim or AVI forums?

Exactly what came in my mind!

 

[Infiniteloop]

Do you want to give an example?

No. I would not like to quote an example without context.

I can only talk about how I felt. I had the feeling that it is possibly the only user forum run by a manufacturer where customers are patronised, rebuked and ridiculed for asking questions or making obsevations that do not agree with the world-view of a small core group of disciples

So you've not seen the Naim or AVI forums?

Those are trully horrid. Not that far away from a scientology forum.

I remember that somebody dared to suggest on the Naim forum that his Devialet had replaced an entire stack of Naim Pre, Power, Dac and numerous power supplies to it all for less than half the cost - and it sounded better!

(It wasn't me.)

The effect was extraordinary.*fool*

 

[steve_1979]

Do you want to give an example?

No. I would not like to quote an example without context.

I can only talk about how I felt. I had the feeling that it is possibly the only user forum run by a manufacturer where customers are patronised, rebuked and ridiculed for asking questions or making obsevations that do not agree with the world-view of a small core group of disciples

So you've not seen the Naim or AVI forums?

Those are trully horrid. Not that far away from a scientology forum.

*shok*

But it was written in the ancient scriptures of our ancestors and the knowledge passed down from generation to generation. How can it not be true?

Seriously though, try saying you prefer vinyl to digital or PC's to Apple on the AVI forums... *ROFL*

 

[tonky]

........for questioning (etc) making observations that don't agree (or not in keeping) with a small core group of disciples. - Oh my !

So it's not just this website then!

Only joking boys! - tonky

 

[lindsayt]

Please read! Why we are here? Joining & Registration . . .Hello and welcome to the Harbeth User Group. This Group is unique because of the high quality of our membership across so many industries, professions and walks of life. Why are we here? Why does this group exist? What should we discuss or should not discuss?

My intention here is to build a knowledge based archive of our combined experience of getting the best from Harbeth speakers, in real rooms with the widest range of equipment and music. This is not a free-running chat forum with Members scrambling over each other to make a point. We are very aware that this is a living historical document, explaining and illustrating the 'BBC monitor concept' as embodied in Harbeth loudspeakers. There are just a few Condition of Membership; one is that you agree to complete your User Profile and to keep it accurate and up to date. It's only fair that we all know a little about each other.

Before posting, please ask yourself:

Will my contribution be of direct interest in twenty years to a future researcher studying BBC monitor speaker design? Or is it off-topic?Will my contribution add some factual knowledge or is it just a opinion? (Example: strongly recommending this or that amplifier, stand, cable without careful A-B testing)

Each and every Membership application is validated. We delete frivolous, offensive, incomplete, where we suspect the information or location is falsified, multiple or otherwise unacceptable applications without notice. Your membership application must include a few details about yourself, or you will not be able to join. Please remember that you must reply to our welcoming email to Activate your membership.

PLEASE read the next post concerning the Activation process. Please remember that your prior Smartgroup registration is still active if you wish to search the old Harbeth Group's archive but we have closed the Smartgroup to new members.

Welcome!

P.S.. Harbeth will not knowingly pass details of any of our members to any other organisation.

Source: http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?17-Please-read!-Why-we-are-here-Joining-amp-RegistrationWell, as it says on the tin, the Harbeth User Group is not a free running chat forum.

 

[hg]

No. I would not like to quote an example without context.

I can only talk about how I felt. I had the feeling that it is possibly the only user forum run by a manufacturer where customers are patronised, rebuked and ridiculed for asking questions or making obsevations that do not agree with the world-view of a small core group of disciples

It is a pity you cannot give an example because it will fuel speculation that you would not accept being corrected for something that was objectively incorrect and that refusal is what brought the ridicule. It is rare in my experience that the few people that make wholly subjective observations are ridiculed. What is much more common is people make what they would like to be a subjective statement that includes an objectively false assertion sometimes implicitly. Because the person making such statements lacks the knowledge to sort out what is objective and what is subjective and almost always has no interest in learning what is really going on there is no mechanism for anything to get resolved.

In my experience effectively all subjective vs objective "debates" involve people that have little grasp of what is relevant and that includes a fair proportion arguing the objective side with missionary zeal. There is no conflict between a subjective view and an objective view of what is going on with home audio but there is an awful lot of ignorance. This ignorance is actively encouraged by a substantial proportion of the industry in order to sell products that are poor in terms of the actual technical performance for the money although not of course perceived performance for the money.

 

[pauln]

lindsayt and hg have summed things up very well imo - op has only himself to blame.

I think it's a great forum myself.

 

[steve_1979]

I think it's a great forum myself.

I like their anti-foo stance on things and there are some interesting discussions. I'm tempted to join even though I don't own their speakers.

 

[chebby]

Harbeth - great soeakers but possibly the worst customer experience.The speakers are wonderful and the best money can buy, not just in their price range but possibly from the entire range of home hifi speakers ever made.
But, registering for the User Group run by the manufacturer is the worst mistake a customer can ever make.

The 'customer experience' does not include compulsory participation on the manufacturer's web forum. Your rights are not affected and the speaker's performance is not affected if you choose not to.

Product registration is an entirely seperate thing here ...

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=ownersregistration

The mandatory fields say nothing about membership of the HUG as far I can see.

If the dealer experience was good, and the speakers are as good as you say they are, and after-sales support is good when/if you need it, then that's all you should be bothered about when it comes to your 'customer experience'.

 

[Jota180]

I like 'the way of the HUG'. Sounds a bit Star Warsy but imo the internets a better place for sites likes that. Sure they can be a bit sharp with people who deviate from the style but they do make it clear what the HUG will accept and what they wont and you have to understand they've had to deal with quite a lot of foo over the years.

 

[Macspur]

It's a real shame, but It's true what you say. Although I don't visit that forum much, if I believed in what I was saying, I wouldn't let it put me off and it certainly wouldn't put me off the Harbeth speakers.

At a fraction of the price of Sonus Faber Evolution that I heard yesterday, my SHL5 are a real bargain.

The worst forum I found to be is the WAM... if you think it's bad mentioning cables here, try it on there!

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

www.mintfm.net

 

[Om]

I think it's a great forum myself.

I like their anti-foo stance on things and there are some interesting discussions. I'm tempted to join even though I don't own their speakers.

Many of the dedicated disciples do not own Harbeth speakers. It is not a prerequisite for joining.

And - the forum claims to be objective but there is no room for objective debate.

One can merrily endorse and recommend brands as long as they belong to the core clique and sing from the same hymn sheet "All Amplifiers are the same; All audio electronics are marketing gimmicks; Only speakers sound different". But make the mistake of even asking how a Leben or a Croft or a Devialet or a LFD sound (a pretty simple and fair question one would think) - and see the reaction you get.

Oh - recently DACs have started to sound different!!!

for those of you who think that a manufacturer is perfectly within their right to run a user forum they way they want - power to you. I was only pointing out that consumers also have equal right to express their dissatisfaction when they find an experience to be sub-standard.

 

[CnoEvil]

At a fraction of the price of Sonus Faber Evolution that I heard yesterday, my SHL5 are a real bargain.

What were your thoughts and what system was used?

 

[Jota180]

I think it's a great forum myself.

I like their anti-foo stance on things and there are some interesting discussions. I'm tempted to join even though I don't own their speakers.

Many of the dedicated disciples do not own Harbeth speakers. It is not a prerequisite for joining.

And - the forum claims to be objective but there is no room for objective debate.

One can merrily endorse and recommend brands as long as they belong to the core clique and sing from the same hymn sheet "All Amplifiers are the same; All audio electronics are marketing gimmicks; Only speakers sound different". But make the mistake of even asking how a Leben or a Croft or a Devialet or a LFD sound (a pretty simple and fair question one would think) - and see the reaction you get.

Oh - recently DACs have started to sound different!!!

for those of you who think that a manufacturer is perfectly within their right to run a user forum they way they want - power to you. I was only pointing out that consumers also have equal right to express their dissatisfaction when they find an experience to be sub-standard.

Is it a fair question asking how an amplifier will sound when you take into consideration they will have heard a different system, in a different room with the speakers further apart/closer together/further from the wall/closer to the wall with different music using different ears?

With that in mind, what is the point of a question like that? Can a question like that really get a satisfactory answer? Looking at the aims of the HUG there's probably not much room for that kind of questioning and I guess if they allow one person to do it then the obvious result is a forum full of people insisting their opinion is greater than everyone elses.

 

[Vladimir]

The OP obviosly went to a manufacturer's forum to look for other Harbeth owners and talk up hi-fi. There his audiophile beliefs were challenged and his "I'm the customer damn it!" protests were gagged. It happened more than once on HUG (ironic choice of acronym possibly?).

When you visit a manufacturer's forum you expect a country club atmosphere and plasticky welcome smiles from the staff who took your money. Doesn't happen though. You get frequently, although intermittently, to enjoy Alan on his soapbox busting audiophile myths, or sitting in his lap to hear some good old 'back in the Quad days' bedtime stories.

 

[hg]

And - the forum claims to be objective but there is no room for objective debate.

One can merrily endorse and recommend brands as long as they belong to the core clique and sing from the same hymn sheet "All Amplifiers are the same; All audio electronics are marketing gimmicks; Only speakers sound different". But make the mistake of even asking how a Leben or a Croft or a Devialet or a LFD sound (a pretty simple and fair question one would think) - and see the reaction you get.

I doubt very much they say "all amplifiers sound the same". This looks very much like you making up what you would like them to be saying.

It is utterly straightforward these days to design and manufacture at modest cost an amplifier that will be audibly neutral when driving a Harbeth loudspeaker. This is the type of amplifier that is relevant for high fidelity music reproduction with a Harbeth loudspeaker (or any other high fidelity loudspeaker for that matter). Most of the amplifiers you cite appear to be technically inadequate to the extent they may well audibly distort the sound. Given the terms posted earlier by Lindsayt, I would expect questions about what does the distortion sound like to be met with something along lines of "go away we are only interested in competent amplifier designs".

 

[Anderson]

The OP obviosly went to a manufacturer's forum to look for other Harbeth owners and talk up hi-fi. There his audiophile beliefs were challenged and his "I'm the customer damn it!" protests were gagged. It happened more than once on HUG (ironic choice of acronym possibly?).

When you visit a manufacturer's forum you expect a country club atmosphere and plasticky welcome smiles from the staff who took your money. Doesn't happen though. You get frequently, although intermittently, to enjoy Alan on his soapbox busting audiophile myths, or sitting in his lap to hear some good old 'back in the Quad days' bedtime stories.

As a result of this thread I went and signed up on HUG. It's really refreshing to see myths getting utterly smacked down, love it when Alan contributed to the threads. I was reading a thread, a member was complaining that a mod had changed the wording of his post. The member had stated that x amp definitely sounded better than y amp. The mod had come along and changed it to 'amp x MAY sound better to amp y for me'. The member in question was kicking off then Alan weighs in with a huge smack down. As Alan might say it's OBJECTIVELY entertaining to read.

I wish all HiFi forums would consider a similar approach, one that comes close is the WAM.

 

[chebby]

I was only pointing out that consumers also have equal right to express their dissatisfaction when they find an experience to be sub-standard.

This just tells me one simple message for manufacturers ... don't have a public forum!

If you do, then you'll even get people who love your products dissing you on the internet.