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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
Keeper of the quays a decent fella with a balanced approach. Ok I admit I type a lot and I do wonder why I respond because there will never be common ground. But I can't identify why anyone should think I am a spammer. It's all just talk and opinion and people can agree to disagree. Buy what ever you like folks and I am not a hifi dealer. Perhaps it could be said some on here with their 'all cables sound the same' posts have an agenda of their own. Cable differences are not unprovable like religion. All people need to do is listen.
It's no competition! I'm making although jovial, a point! Being if members don't like a post or a poster? Shouting Spam from a ivory tower immediately isn't the best way..seems to me the bogey man word "Spam" is thrown about for other reasons?chebby said:
Just as Mr Chebby and TrevC will shout spammer purely on the basis that a brand name is recommended, some people on other forums (havent been here long enough to know if it happens on this one) will shout troll at anyone purely on the basis someone dares to express a different view or questions the common view of that particular website. It seems people must agree with the screamings of the faithful with blind faith to the common consensus of that websites with its grinding axe and even an attempt to reason and debate is invite to be labelled a troll. Likewise, here a simple statement by me stating my best ever bargain was the purchase of some analogue interconnects of extremely good value and yet superior performance is to be labelled a spammer. If the accusers used their brains they would know a spammer posts a wadge of copy and pasted text in as many topics on a forum as possible within as short a time as possible and then they flee never to be seen again (under that name but back again soon under another). A spammer certainly would not hang around to repeatedly respond to trevc chubby and the like. If trevc and friends are just trying to stir the pot and upset for their own entertainment then sorry to dissapoint but I am now immune and battle hardened. The moderators are not slack or complacent, they will have drawn a conclusion I am not possibly a spammer. I assume the moderators are well educated in the world of audio and will know that what I have written is factually correct and done in such a way there is no financial benefit to myself. If I was a spammer in a hurry I would not waste time in responding to people unable to use their ears. I am responding because I realize keeper of the quays is a decent bloke capable of polite balanced conversation. Anyone who thinks the only products that can be any good are those heavily advertized is neive in the extreme. heavy advertizing suggests to me the product cannot sell itself. Many years ago it was the only way to make potential buyers aware of products but those of us who arent thick know very well pricey adverts are obviously never going to say anything other than good things about their own products, and the only truely worthwhile adverts and reviews are those non commercial reviews that come from buyers at the bottom of products for sale and verified as coming from purchasers. People with nothing to gain by writing a review but so pleased with their purchase they feel they want to. If I was spamming to sell a product I would be spamming in the most obvious place and that is at the bottom of the product page on amazon or similar and not on here. Bla Bla Bla. Spin on my middle finger trevc and co - society for the tone deaf and best wishes to you keeper of the quays. The idea I am a spammer is laughable. Now for me time for some high quality sounds through my marvelously musical and great value for money interconnects before bed - some of us are working on a sunday. Enjoy your freebies boys!!!
plastic penguin
Well-known member
chebby said:
Agreed.
There was plenty of threads in 2008. Gotham was name presumably taken from Batman. The geezer who made them IIRC was one man and his puppet. How apt given the junk posts over recent times.
this is more generalisation finger wagging from the usual suspects..by all means agree with each other and huff and puff but don't use the word spammer as a hammer? I don't think Colin is a spammer in any sense..if you don't like someone? Ignore them..but accusing them of spamming or doing it in a snide way where you lot gang up together is wrong..save your energies for real spammers! It's getting like lord of the flies here!plastic penguin said:
plastic penguin
Well-known member
keeper of the quays said:
There's NO ganging up. But if someone acts like a prat they'll get treated as one. "Lord of the Flies"? What happens to flys? They get swatted.
this the attitude I was talking about! As long as a newbie asks a question then gets half a dozen answers..which the newbie ignores and buys something else instead! Lol..then you get someone moaning that this newbie wasn't very polite..thats ok for your lot? Is it? This is like the a school gang! If your not in the gang..then your a nobody? It's crap! Those Korean spammers are ghastly..dog is one of their national dishes!! How disgusting..i agree..squish them..squash them..ill hold your frock!plastic penguin said:
but people who have a strong opinion and voice this in a erudite way..why so hostile? Are all the long term forum members so insecure? Will this new chap be more popular than yourselves? It's very childish..here endeth todays lesson.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
keeper of the quays said:this the attitude I was talking about! As long as a newbie asks a question then gets half a dozen answers..which the newbie ignores and buys something else instead! Lol..then you get someone moaning that this newbie wasn't very polite..thats ok for your lot? Is it? This is like the a school gang! If your not in the gang..then your a nobody? It's crap! Those Korean spammers are ghastly..dog is one of their national dishes!! How disgusting..i agree..squish them..squash them..ill hold your frock!plastic penguin said:
"Here endeth the lesson" and "Follow the Keeper" who the f**k are you? You back people like Max who goes crying to his Gov at AVI and can't speak for himself. In addition, after he was banned he tried numreous times with other usernames. Very few people on here liked him. You are demonstrating very similar traits.
What have you and this Colin contributed to other hi-fi questions? Practically nothing. You stated you had many different systems, show that helping genuine newbies.
I should respect my elders (as you're older than me)... in your case give me a reason why I should? And don't spout all this "I am the Keeper..." b*****ks. You're like me: Another ordinary Joe.
you seem tetchy today? Lost a pound found a penny? Lol..when it comes to crying to the mods? I have never reported anyone apart from a couple of obvious spammers..can you say the same??? Re Colin's posts, yes they were on one subject.and? You lot hardly gave him a chance! My point again! If you don't like someone? Feel free to ignore them...which bit of my previous utterance did you not understand? All your doing is confirming what I have been saying....stop bloody yelling spammer all the time! When did this forum become a nimby hifi club? My points are good ones..I feel sorry for Colin, he spoke like he knew stuff! And because of spam yelling! We will never know his knowledge..which personally I feel sad about..plastic penguin said:keeper of the quays said:this the attitude I was talking about! As long as a newbie asks a question then gets half a dozen answers..which the newbie ignores and buys something else instead! Lol..then you get someone moaning that this newbie wasn't very polite..thats ok for your lot? Is it? This is like the a school gang! If your not in the gang..then your a nobody? It's crap! Those Korean spammers are ghastly..dog is one of their national dishes!! How disgusting..i agree..squish them..squash them..ill hold your frock!plastic penguin said:
"Here endeth the lesson" and "Follow the Keeper" who the f**k are you? You back people like Max who goes crying to his Gov at AVI and can't speak for himself. In addition, after he was banned he tried numreous times with other usernames. Very few people on here liked him. You are demonstrating very similar traits.
What have you and this Colin contributed to other hi-fi questions? Practically nothing. You stated you had many different systems, show that helping genuine newbies.
I should respect my elders (as you're older than me)... in your case give me a reason why I should? And don't spout all this "I am the Keeper..." b*****ks. You're like me: Another ordinary Joe.
This might be an opportune moment to quote an extract from my Forum Survival Guide, that I wrote a couple of years ago:
"Now, contrary to popular belief, Hi-Fi forums are not the friendly cyber spaces, where enthusiasts come together in order to partake in interesting, fruitful and respectful debate......where's the fun in that?
There are a few simple rules, which if followed, will greatly help with the whole experience:
1. If you want to know whether your questions or opinions are appropriate, you need to submit them to the Science Junta for approval, and they will (unequivocally) give you a red or green light.
2. Contrary to what logic might suggest, when it comes to evaluating accessories, DO NOT listen for yourself, but ask the advice of someone who hasn't listened to it, and they will tell you if it's worth hearing.
3. In order to get your findings taken seriously, you need to ( a ) invest in a technical lab, with all manner of oscilloscopes and sciencey gubbins (b) do an electronics degree, so that you can use your new equipment (c) go into partnership with a University Research Department, who will conduct and verify proper ABX, Blind and Double Blind tests, ensuring correct protocol is followed.....strictly no spouses or partners allowed.
4. Ignore all the gullible nutters who populate the forum, whose only goal is to brainwash you and weaken your resolve.
5. Recognize that you may well be an Audioholic; the symptoms of which usually include:
- An insatiable desire to tinker and improve your system with Foo.
- A strong and irrational determination to believe that what you are hearing, is real.
- An unfathomable desire to share your subversive knowledge with others.
- A belief that Hifi is a subjective experience, and enjoyment matters more than measurements."
Oh, and throwing in some paragraphing helps. They don't have to be Hi- End expensive paragraphs....the type you get thrown in when you buy a humble pencil are perfectly satisfactory.
"Now, contrary to popular belief, Hi-Fi forums are not the friendly cyber spaces, where enthusiasts come together in order to partake in interesting, fruitful and respectful debate......where's the fun in that?
There are a few simple rules, which if followed, will greatly help with the whole experience:
1. If you want to know whether your questions or opinions are appropriate, you need to submit them to the Science Junta for approval, and they will (unequivocally) give you a red or green light.
2. Contrary to what logic might suggest, when it comes to evaluating accessories, DO NOT listen for yourself, but ask the advice of someone who hasn't listened to it, and they will tell you if it's worth hearing.
3. In order to get your findings taken seriously, you need to ( a ) invest in a technical lab, with all manner of oscilloscopes and sciencey gubbins (b) do an electronics degree, so that you can use your new equipment (c) go into partnership with a University Research Department, who will conduct and verify proper ABX, Blind and Double Blind tests, ensuring correct protocol is followed.....strictly no spouses or partners allowed.
4. Ignore all the gullible nutters who populate the forum, whose only goal is to brainwash you and weaken your resolve.
5. Recognize that you may well be an Audioholic; the symptoms of which usually include:
- An insatiable desire to tinker and improve your system with Foo.
- A strong and irrational determination to believe that what you are hearing, is real.
- An unfathomable desire to share your subversive knowledge with others.
- A belief that Hifi is a subjective experience, and enjoyment matters more than measurements."
Oh, and throwing in some paragraphing helps. They don't have to be Hi- End expensive paragraphs....the type you get thrown in when you buy a humble pencil are perfectly satisfactory.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
keeper of the quays said:plastic penguin said:keeper of the quays said:this the attitude I was talking about! As long as a newbie asks a question then gets half a dozen answers..which the newbie ignores and buys something else instead! Lol..then you get someone moaning that this newbie wasn't very polite..thats ok for your lot? Is it? This is like the a school gang! If your not in the gang..then your a nobody? It's crap! Those Korean spammers are ghastly..dog is one of their national dishes!! How disgusting..i agree..squish them..squash them..ill hold your frock!plastic penguin said:
"Here endeth the lesson" and "Follow the Keeper" who the f**k are you? You back people like Max who goes crying to his Gov at AVI and can't speak for himself. In addition, after he was banned he tried numreous times with other usernames. Very few people on here liked him. You are demonstrating very similar traits.
What have you and this Colin contributed to other hi-fi questions? Practically nothing. You stated you had many different systems, show that helping genuine newbies.
I should respect my elders (as you're older than me)... in your case give me a reason why I should? And don't spout all this "I am the Keeper..." b*****ks. You're like me: Another ordinary Joe.
I have never reported anyone apart from a couple of obvious spammers..can you say the same??? Re Colin's posts, yes they were on one subject.and? You lot hardly gave him a chance! My point again! All your doing is confirming what I have been saying.... My points are good ones..I feel sorry for Colin, he spoke like he knew stuff! And because of spam yelling! We will never know his knowledge.
Point one: I've never cried to the MODs. If I had it would be a direct email, not a thread on a forum... that was meant to stimulate opinion.
Point two: His subject came and went years ago. I always give a person a chance if they have something worthwhile
Point Three: You've made no point apart from defending potential troublemakers. What stuff does he know? He's not posted on anything other than Gotham interconnects. What knowledge?
Point Four: Delusion is a form of severe insecurity. You are one deluded geezer.
Please pollute some other forum.
So you have never cried to the mods? You seem the type..your arguments are risible..you resort to clear off..polluter! Lol...if you don't like people? Ignore them...think of your blood pressure!plastic penguin said:keeper of the quays said:plastic penguin said:keeper of the quays said:this the attitude I was talking about! As long as a newbie asks a question then gets half a dozen answers..which the newbie ignores and buys something else instead! Lol..then you get someone moaning that this newbie wasn't very polite..thats ok for your lot? Is it? This is like the a school gang! If your not in the gang..then your a nobody? It's crap! Those Korean spammers are ghastly..dog is one of their national dishes!! How disgusting..i agree..squish them..squash them..ill hold your frock!plastic penguin said:
"Here endeth the lesson" and "Follow the Keeper" who the f**k are you? You back people like Max who goes crying to his Gov at AVI and can't speak for himself. In addition, after he was banned he tried numreous times with other usernames. Very few people on here liked him. You are demonstrating very similar traits.
What have you and this Colin contributed to other hi-fi questions? Practically nothing. You stated you had many different systems, show that helping genuine newbies.
I should respect my elders (as you're older than me)... in your case give me a reason why I should? And don't spout all this "I am the Keeper..." b*****ks. You're like me: Another ordinary Joe.
I have never reported anyone apart from a couple of obvious spammers..can you say the same??? Re Colin's posts, yes they were on one subject.and? You lot hardly gave him a chance! My point again! All your doing is confirming what I have been saying.... My points are good ones..I feel sorry for Colin, he spoke like he knew stuff! And because of spam yelling! We will never know his knowledge.
Point one: I've never cried to the MODs. If I had it would be a direct email, not a thread on a forum... that was meant to stimulate opinion.
Point two: His subject came and went years ago. I always give a person a chance if they have something worthwhile
Point Three: You've made no point apart from defending potential troublemakers. What stuff does he know? He's not posted on anything other than Gotham interconnects. What knowledge?
Point Four: Delusion is a form of severe insecurity. You are one deluded geezer.
Please pollute some other forum.
So what about 2008. The brand existed long before then and still does. I expect what happened in 2008 was the brand we are talking about first found its way onto the domestic / home hifi market and some amateur home hifi enthusiasts mistakingly believed it was a new brand hitting the market. Lol - One man and his friend naming their cables after Gotham city in Batman indeed tehehehe. That is hilarious and just proves how some people draw conclusions. So some geezer and his mate set up a garden shed type business selling cable and choose a name from Batman but somehow manage to encourage recording studios around the globe to rewire their entire studios with their cable.
It is my prefered brand and others can have whatever brand they prefer too including freebies that drop out of the box with the product. I really don't mind.
It is my prefered brand and others can have whatever brand they prefer too including freebies that drop out of the box with the product. I really don't mind.
Excuse Me please Plastic Penguin 'What Have I ever contributed?' For a start I only signed up to this forum about a week ago and my first post was as much about getting started as anything so give me a chance, I am not a man in a hurry. The first welcome I got was to be instantly accused of being a spammer by someone who has had nothing further to say. Maybe we have a bunch on here who just enjoy argueing and name calling rather than wanting to talk about audio.
I do have one other post on the forum about vinyl and turntables. I have avoided letting anyone know about my recent vinyl purchases and enthusing about what I have bought for fear of being accused of trying to plug them or boost sales. This is in spite of the fact it seems ok for plenty others to recommend things and get away with it.
Much of what I have written comes directly from formal education at sound engineering college and is pretty much accepted industry standard knowledge. Admittedly only formal education at the basic level and I have never worked in the audio industry in any way. But one thing is a fact and a well known fact is that cables do matter a great deal. What they do not do in the profession is use cables that cost silly money. The law of diminishing returns means silly money cables are for audiophiles only with lots of money to waste. Also I post from personal experience and some personal opinion is of course debatable.
Also this subject of Gotham interconnects I posted would have been long gone and forgotten by now if the ''all cables are the same'' lot hadn't kept it going. I will remind us all of the point of the very first post on the subject and that was the Gotham cables I bought represented to me the best bargain hifi purchase I have ever made on the basis of 'little spend - improvment lots' for me and my system. I have never suggested they would improve any one elses system - they might do they might not!
I will check out as many other topics on here as I have time for where I see you posting and offer up some of my opinion and knowledge on a multitude of hifi topics and over time you will see I have a great deal more to talk about than just gotham interconnects. Give it time! will you? Check out my turntable/vinyl post and try to find any attempt by me to spam or plug anything. I also posted on a headphone topic where I dared to risk being called a spammer by stating which pairs are headphones I own are my favourites. Unwise?
I do have one other post on the forum about vinyl and turntables. I have avoided letting anyone know about my recent vinyl purchases and enthusing about what I have bought for fear of being accused of trying to plug them or boost sales. This is in spite of the fact it seems ok for plenty others to recommend things and get away with it.
Much of what I have written comes directly from formal education at sound engineering college and is pretty much accepted industry standard knowledge. Admittedly only formal education at the basic level and I have never worked in the audio industry in any way. But one thing is a fact and a well known fact is that cables do matter a great deal. What they do not do in the profession is use cables that cost silly money. The law of diminishing returns means silly money cables are for audiophiles only with lots of money to waste. Also I post from personal experience and some personal opinion is of course debatable.
Also this subject of Gotham interconnects I posted would have been long gone and forgotten by now if the ''all cables are the same'' lot hadn't kept it going. I will remind us all of the point of the very first post on the subject and that was the Gotham cables I bought represented to me the best bargain hifi purchase I have ever made on the basis of 'little spend - improvment lots' for me and my system. I have never suggested they would improve any one elses system - they might do they might not!
I will check out as many other topics on here as I have time for where I see you posting and offer up some of my opinion and knowledge on a multitude of hifi topics and over time you will see I have a great deal more to talk about than just gotham interconnects. Give it time! will you? Check out my turntable/vinyl post and try to find any attempt by me to spam or plug anything. I also posted on a headphone topic where I dared to risk being called a spammer by stating which pairs are headphones I own are my favourites. Unwise?
Point 2 - His subject came and went years ago. So presumably only the very same people who were talking years ago about a subject can ever be forum members. No newer people on the forum then? or perhaps there is a newer young member who was lets say 10 years old when the subject was being talked about years ago. So new people must never ever talk about a subject that came and went years ago? Rediculous thing to say! Any subject in hifi does not come and go but remains for ever to talk about. And if the old dogs who talked about something say 10 years ago don't want to talk about it again, they don't have to.
Point 3 - What Knowledge I've got knowledge, some knowledge of which some is from education and some from experience. It is not ultimate knowledge or devine knowledge but more a basic understanding of certain elements of audio. My background is not audiophile/esoteric and I will not have anything to say about such equipment other than saying I think the approach is flawed. I have never owed any mega expensive hifi but I have heard plenty and cant say I have been overly impressed on the basis of sound per pound. The best knowledge I learned is learning that you do not get hifi heaven simply by throwing money at it. Much of the pro and semi pro equipment is laughably cheap yet incredibly good. Anyone who learns to marry up a combination of pro audio equipment and budget domestic hifi will end up with a system sounding just the way they want it to. A situation no audiophile throwing thousands of pounds at it will ever achieve. Reason is simple. To get a system sounding how you like it you have to 'Engineer' the sound. It is the only way! Engineering sound is the very thing audiophiles will not do. Their method is to go on the endless upgrading path to achieve the sound they are after. Hifi dealers and other vested interests who benefit from endless upgraders love this approach and of course encourage it.
Point 3 - What Knowledge I've got knowledge, some knowledge of which some is from education and some from experience. It is not ultimate knowledge or devine knowledge but more a basic understanding of certain elements of audio. My background is not audiophile/esoteric and I will not have anything to say about such equipment other than saying I think the approach is flawed. I have never owed any mega expensive hifi but I have heard plenty and cant say I have been overly impressed on the basis of sound per pound. The best knowledge I learned is learning that you do not get hifi heaven simply by throwing money at it. Much of the pro and semi pro equipment is laughably cheap yet incredibly good. Anyone who learns to marry up a combination of pro audio equipment and budget domestic hifi will end up with a system sounding just the way they want it to. A situation no audiophile throwing thousands of pounds at it will ever achieve. Reason is simple. To get a system sounding how you like it you have to 'Engineer' the sound. It is the only way! Engineering sound is the very thing audiophiles will not do. Their method is to go on the endless upgrading path to achieve the sound they are after. Hifi dealers and other vested interests who benefit from endless upgraders love this approach and of course encourage it.
LOL Now I see where you are coming from PP. You must have read that review from 2008 and presumed the seller and his mate accually make the cables. They buy the cable in on spools, cut it into lengths and put plugs (RCAPhono/XLR etc etc) on the ends and then sell them. There is a vast range of different cable for different purposes manufactered by the company of that name and not just a cable that whathifi seemed to suggest was sold on ebay and only ebay. Not true. There are many sellers elsewhere. They didn't think up a name to give them from Batman - that is the name of the cable manufacterer and as it seems the brand has been around since 1958 according to gothams logo and Batman first came about in the 1960s I can't see how Batman and Gotham City can have anything to do with this brand of cable. See Link below. I don't know what you are trying to achieve or what I have done to deserve such contempt from you and some others. I see you are a prolific poster and likely to think of yourself as one of the forum top dogs so if you are worried about losing your crown to me then don't because I am not a forum junkie and have no intentions of making this forum a way of life. You and the others have prevented me getting bored since joining when I am sitting at my laptop but other than that I'm beginning to ask myself why I ever jumped into this snake pit. http://gothamcables.com/en/
Looks like good quality cable for a reasonable price made by an established company supplying studios and broadcasters mostly with cable by the 100m drum. No foo in sight. What's not to like? I can't see what all the fuss is about.
TrevC
Well-known member
Song and dance? Colin posted about a cable he thought highly of! They tried to shout him down..bad form!TrevC said:
Some people have got what they wanted and the spam filter has blocked my post. I can't think why because lots of people mention and recommend brands or makes and models of what they are using. This got through but my previous response was blocked. I will try posting it in underneath this as an edit. Just tried that and still spam filter is denying it. Not a single referal to any brand or recommendation in it. I have to endure people who think some cables are named from Batman and various other nonsense but I get a post blocked for basically defending myself. Incredible!!
plastic penguin
Well-known member
I know about van damme cables. Eric Claptons choice I believe. I don't doubt they are good even though they have not found their way into my system yet. Van De Hul I know are popular amongst audiophiles but their range always attracts such mixed reviews from various publications I have never been tempted incase of making a mistake. The word 'dull' appears too often in tests of VDH cable and dull is not for me. Was a fan of Monster Cable for many years mainly because it was the industry standard in pro circles for so long but the crown seems to have slipped recently. I replaced my aging monster interconnects with the gothams last year. I had no experience of them but came across alot of enthusiasm on American forums. As they are cheap I chanced a 1mtr pair and after plugging them in to my system I ordered some more - a couple of 2mtr lengths within an hour. The most obvious innicial finding was all system hum had vanished which had been a problem for me. Obviously hum reduces dynamic range, masks fine detail and introduces a dirty/muddyness to the sound. And not surprisingly the gotham cable produced a sound very dynamic with great insight (I heard little sounds I had not heard before) and an extremely clean clear mid and high frequency response. Vocals standing out but unforced and extended treble with a natural slow decay to almost inaudible without grittyness or splatter. The bass has an incredible solid thump with great resonance. It is an 'in ya face' sounding cable but that suits the kind of music l listen to. The previous monster interconnects I had been using were by comparison veiled and the bass had more of a bloom rather than a thump and compared to the gothams the treble was subdued yet grainy. The monsters had cost more than double the price of the gotham 15 years previous. Obviously I was impressed with my good value purchase.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
IME there's little or no difference between budget cables. The only slight caveat is perhaps a scintilla of difference when it comes to tonal balance. However, if you have a balanced set-up, it's unlikely ypu'll hear a discerning disparity.
Perhaps with a hi-end system you could spend a lot of dough on cables and maybe there is an audible uplift, but more modest systems, like mine, it would IMO be foolhardy to spend fortunes.
The biggest difference I've heard was by cleaning the cables and binding posts on an annual basis.
My early remark was I think lost in translation: I never suggested for one moment that Gotham aren't made anymore, only this entry-level cable has been done to death way back in 2008. The reason why no threads have been produced over recent times is because the novelty of a cheap (homemade) cable has long past.
Many products have their 15 minutes of (forum) fame... after that it's long forgotten.
Perhaps with a hi-end system you could spend a lot of dough on cables and maybe there is an audible uplift, but more modest systems, like mine, it would IMO be foolhardy to spend fortunes.
The biggest difference I've heard was by cleaning the cables and binding posts on an annual basis.
My early remark was I think lost in translation: I never suggested for one moment that Gotham aren't made anymore, only this entry-level cable has been done to death way back in 2008. The reason why no threads have been produced over recent times is because the novelty of a cheap (homemade) cable has long past.
Many products have their 15 minutes of (forum) fame... after that it's long forgotten.
TrevC
Well-known member
ColinLovesMusic said:
I had a chat with the technical department and asked if the spam filter could also be implemented as a verbose nonsense filter. I'm pleased to see that it is working well.
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