Finished . . . !

[plastic penguin]

Tut, tut, Vlad.

I hate the hypocrasy of this forum. If I came anywhere near the claims you have made without physically hearing it for myself, I would be absolutely slaughtered by Chebby and a couple of others.

Jeez, it was just some soapbox time. Don't sic Chebby on me!

Hi-fi forums in particular aren't a good place for soapbox-based declamations. Paper specs are all well and good if you have comparative experience of the said papers or links -- or at least can substantiate these will stand the test in a normal living environment. I know from 35 years of home and shop dems, these so-called papers are often a folly.

 

[Vladimir]

Tut, tut, Vlad.

I hate the hypocrasy of this forum. If I came anywhere near the claims you have made without physically hearing it for myself, I would be absolutely slaughtered by Chebby and a couple of others.

Jeez, it was just some soapbox time. Don't sic Chebby on me!

Hi-fi forums in particular aren't a good place for soapbox-based declamations. Paper specs are all well and good if you have comparative experience of the said papers or links -- or at least can substantiate these will stand the test in a normal living environment. I know from 35 years of home and shop dems, these so-called papers are often a folly.

At this point in life I have zero faith in sighted listening tests and even less in technically ignorant self-proclaimed audiophile authorities.

I'll let you know if this changes in the following years.

 

[plastic penguin]

Tut, tut, Vlad.

I hate the hypocrasy of this forum. If I came anywhere near the claims you have made without physically hearing it for myself, I would be absolutely slaughtered by Chebby and a couple of others.

Jeez, it was just some soapbox time. Don't sic Chebby on me!

Hi-fi forums in particular aren't a good place for soapbox-based declamations. Paper specs are all well and good if you have comparative experience of the said papers or links -- or at least can substantiate these will stand the test in a normal living environment. I know from 35 years of home and shop dems, these so-called papers are often a folly.

At this point in life I have zero faith in sighted listening tests and even less in technically ignorant self-proclaimed audiophile authorities.

I'll let you know if this changes in the following years.

Presumably then you just buy a component by clicking the PDF file of a certain product, without testing to see whether it does meet your personal listening requirements or not -- or could it be you don't trust your ears? if it's the latter why then why do you have a hobby where your ears are essential? That's as lamentable as people who buy purely on reviews and then find they've wasted the dealers and their time.

Hi-fi is like anything else in life - it takes a bit of effort. I've lost count the amount of foot-sore miles I've covered humping boxes from car to dealers or vice-versa.

I look at paper specs as I do reviews: Good as a guideline....

 

[Vladimir]

Says the man who auditions his electronics and blind buys his speakers. *biggrin*

I do it the other way round.

 

[Overdose]

Hi-fi is like anything else in life - it takes a bit of effort. I've lost count the amount of foot-sore miles I've covered humping boxes from car to dealers or vice-versa.

I look at paper specs as I do reviews: Good as a guideline....

Do the paperwork, avoid the legwork.

 

[chebby]

I've lost count the amount of foot-sore miles I've covered humping boxes from car to dealers or vice-versa.

Get it delivered.

 

[Vladimir]

What happened to that Arcam A38 audition that was announced in a separate thread here?

 

[plastic penguin]

Says the man who auditions his electronics and blind buys his speakers. *biggrin*

I do it the other way round.

Indeed. It was a calculated decision based on my vast experience of the DB1is. The only real fault was they lacked a little bass extension. Thought initially I could get used to it, but decided - correctly - this particular shortfall was a little too much to live with. The TB2 have bigger drivers and a larger box. Bingo!

As regards the A38, couldn't find anywhere that had dem example, and as it is hugely unlikely to be better than the Pulse, I pulled the plug on that idea.

 

[plastic penguin]

I've lost count the amount of foot-sore miles I've covered humping boxes from car to dealers or vice-versa.

Get it delivered.

Not complaining. It's like going to a record shop (rememeber those?), part of the excitement of buying a record or a CD was to pick-up the atmosphere.

At least at a shop you can look at alternatives to your first choice and then weigh up the pros and cons of each product.

 

[Vladimir]

As regards the A38, couldn't find anywhere that had dem example, and as it is hugely unlikely to be better than the Pulse, I pulled the plug on that idea.

How did you came to that conclusion? Sounds like a theory that needs to be tested.

(yes, I know I am a child)

 

[plastic penguin]

As regards the A38, couldn't find anywhere that had dem example, and as it is hugely unlikely to be better than the Pulse, I pulled the plug on that idea.

How did you came to that conclusion? Sounds like a theory that needs to be tested.

14 unbroken years of owning Arcam amps and 6 years of owning their CDP is a good place to start, don't you think?

 

[Vladimir]

As regards the A38, couldn't find anywhere that had dem example, and as it is hugely unlikely to be better than the Pulse, I pulled the plug on that idea.

How did you came to that conclusion? Sounds like a theory that needs to be tested.

14 unbroken years of owning Arcam amps and 6 years of owning their CDP is a good place to start, don't you think?

Ownership * Longevity ≠ Expertise.

Unless you learn the engineering and psychoacoustic aspect, you are a fan and a collector at best. Drinking Asda wine for 30 years does not make you a Sommelier.

 

[stevebrock]

Brio 3 ? is that the Brio R ? confusing or what

 

[chebby]

Brio 3 ? is that the Brio R ? confusing or what?

The one before the Brio-R. It had the full width case.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thx for that.

I still think you might be surprised what can be achieved by a powerful modern Valve amp from the likes of VTL (which can drive Focal Utopia Mystros).

*drinks*

Do they have high current capability? Those Focals are 93dB but have nasty impedances.

The system I heard was at a musical evening hosted by Kronos and Kog Audio. It consisted of:

DCS Scarlatti 4 box CD player (£45k) + VTL 6.5 Pre (£11k) + VTL 2 x 400 Valve Monoblocks (£18k) + Focal Utopia Mystro (£31k) + all wired with Telurium Q Ultra Black s/c and Telurium Q i/c

I can tell you that it drove the hell out of the speakers...

My point was to wipe away any misconceptions that all Valve amps have an over-honeyed, warm, rose tinted presentation.

 

[chebby]

As regards the A38, couldn't find anywhere that had dem example, and as it is hugely unlikely to be better than the Pulse, I pulled the plug on that idea.

How did you came to that conclusion? Sounds like a theory that needs to be tested.

14 unbroken years of owning Arcam amps and 6 years of owning their CDP is a good place to start, don't you think?

11 years of owning the original Rega Brio amp and hearing the later Brio-3 at dems (and frequently listening to the Apollo in my friend's system) wouldn't qualify me to comment on the performance of their latest products, or older Rega products further up the range, that I have never encountered.

You simply cannot 'extrapolate' an opinion about one product from another. Even from the same range. Look at Yamaha's old A-S500 vs A-S700. Completely different by all accounts.

Hearing the Arcam components in the same friend's old system (A65+ and CD73) years ago wouldn't have helped in assessing the CD17/A18 (that I heard for myself a few times at dealer demos) because they were years apart and in different rooms and played with different speakers. So how much further off the mark would it have been to give an opinion if I hadn't even heard the later models at all?

 

[Vladimir]

If these are the VTLs: VTL S-400 Series II

They are optimized for 4-8 ohms. The Focals drop down to 3 ohms according to manufacturer specification, excluding the phase angle shift, which could be even 60 degrees. In such scenario the amplifier effectively sees a 2 ohm load at certain frequencies. If so, the amps were soft clipping those frequencies. This of course is difficult to detect with music program by simply listening because output transformers on valve amps maintain soft clipping (lower order harmonics that sound pleasant), heavily saturate the lower frequencies and limit the high frequencies. But they can't do away without the output transformers because valve output impedance is too high (low damping factor), practically impossible to drive speaker cones. Thus the valve sound (soft, smooth, warm, organic, rich, nonfatiguing).

Valve power stages are simply incapable of delivering high current for difficult loads. Keep stacking valves and you get higher power rating from the increase of voltage. Voltage is not a problem. They were invented for efficient and high impedance loudspeakers with the size of Volvo caravans.

The VTLs are certanly impressive and I would poop my audiophile diaper at such demonstration, but I think they tortured them with those nasty modern Focals. If I would get pure valve amplification, the speakers must be technology matching the same era the amp was designed in.

 

[stevebrock]

< and the top site visited on Vladimirs computer is "Google" >

shame he didnt consult it when buying that Roksan amp

 

[CnoEvil]

If these are the VTLs: VTL S-400 Series II

They are optimized for 4-8 ohms. The Focals drop down to 3 ohms according to manufacturer specification, excluding the phase angle shift, which could be even 60 degrees. In such scenario the amplifier effectively sees a 2 ohm load at certain frequencies. If so, the amps were soft clipping those frequencies. This of course is difficult to detect with music program by simply listening because output transformers on valve amps maintain soft clipping (lower order harmonics that sound pleasant), heavily saturate the lower frequencies and limit the high frequencies. But they can't do away without the output transformers because valve output impedance is too high (low damping factor), practically impossible to drive speaker cones. Thus the valve sound (soft, smooth, warm, organic, rich, nonfatiguing).

Valve power stages are simply incapable of delivering high current for difficult loads. Keep stacking valves and you get higher power rating from the increase of voltage. Voltage is not a problem. They were invented for efficient and high impedance loudspeakers with the size of Volvo caravans.

The VTLs are certanly impressive and I would poop my audiophile diaper at such demonstration, but I think they tortured them with those nasty modern Focals. If I would get pure valve amplification, the speakers must be technology matching the same era the amp was designed in.

That's the Stereo version.

What I heard were the monoblocks (in 2011)....the latest version of which I think is this: http://vtl.com/products/power-amplifiers/monoblock-amplifiers/mb-450-series-iii-signature-monoblock/

I take your point about the output load range....but from where I sat, there was absolutely no problem driving the speakers to very high volumes and with a vice-like grip.

 

[Vladimir]

ha... ha...

I use biometrics for selecting females to mate with.

 

[chebby]

ha... ha...

I use biometrics for selecting females to mate with.

Do you prefer them to be class B as well?

(There must be a 'single-ended, push-pull' joke in there somewhere.)

 

[Vladimir]

That's the Stereo version.

What I heard were the monoblocks (in 2011)....the latest version of which I think is this: http://vtl.com/products/power-amplifiers/monoblock-amplifiers/mb-450-series-iii-signature-monoblock/

I take your point about the output load range....but from where I sat, there was absolutely no problem driving the speakers to very high volumes and with a vice-like grip.

Like I said, no uggly upper harmonics and no hard clipping so the performance is very impressive, no doubt. If there was no current starvation and iron core transformer saturation, the valve block would sound the same as you were using a Krell S300i to run those Focals. The sonic differences in valve amps have to come from somewhere and its not a mistery. They are now exactly 110 years old (invented by John Ambrose Fleming in 1904 in London, while he was employed at Marconi).

Goooooooooooooooooogllllleeeeeeeeee

 

[Vladimir]

ha... ha...

I use biometrics for selecting females to mate with.

Do you prefer them to be class B as well?

(There must be a 'single-ended, push-pull' joke in there somewhere.)

Class Blonde!

(BTW WTH happend to this thread)

 

[CnoEvil]

Like I said, no uggly upper harmonics and no hard clipping so the performance is very impressive, no doubt. If there was no current starvation and iron core transformer saturation, the valve block would sound the same as you were using a Krell S300i to run those Focals. The sonic differences in valve amps have to come from somewhere and its not a mistery. They are now exactly 110 years old (invented by John Ambrose Fleming in 1904 in London, while he was employed at Marconi).

Goooooooooooooooooogllllleeeeeeeeee

Specs only tell part of the story, whereas listening makes up the rest of it.

You can't "do hifi" from behind a computer and get the full picture.

 

[Covenanter]

As regards the A38, couldn't find anywhere that had dem example, and as it is hugely unlikely to be better than the Pulse, I pulled the plug on that idea.

How did you came to that conclusion? Sounds like a theory that needs to be tested.

14 unbroken years of owning Arcam amps and 6 years of owning their CDP is a good place to start, don't you think?

Ownership * Longevity ≠ Expertise.

Unless you learn the engineering and psychoacoustic aspect, you are a fan and a collector at best. Drinking Asda wine for 30 years does not make you a Sommelier.

Ouch!

Chris