Finished . . . !

[CnoEvil]

I won't let "emotional" pass! Do the electrons have tears in their eyes? I was one of the last generation who studied valves in my Electronics degree and I know inside out how they work. I've repaired more valve amps than anybody posting to this CB has years and I've built quite a few from scratch too. Valve amplifiers beneift from simplicity and from purity of design but that's it. You are a sensible chap so please don't bring "emotion" into it.

Chris

I judge a system by the way it makes me feel ie. In the way it conveys the emotion of the musicians and also the way it evokes emotion in me.

Some amps and speakers do this more successfully than others (for me).

Well designed Valve amps have a way of conveying this emotive experience, on certain types of music, better than anything else (imo).

The ability of a component to achieve the above is absolutely key for me.....so I will continue to hold (and talk about) this very personal viewpoint, whether you think it's appropriate or not...

*drinks*

 

[plastic penguin]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

Thought the Croft had valves.

Vlad is correct...Croft is a "halfway house", though is often the answer.

What's the difference in presentation between a valve amp and a valve hybrid?

The weakness of Valves can be in the bass, which is often not as hard hitting, deep and controlled as Solid State. When you combine a Valve Pre with a SS power, to some extent you are then getting the best of both worlds.....though it's not always done successfully.

If one finds SS amps just a little too hard and edgy, it can be a great solution...but true "Tubaholics" are not prepared to compromise at all on the rich, emotional and vibrant sound of an all Valve set-up.

Ah, okay. It sounds as if the difference between a hybrid and standard SS amp can be marginal, so I suppose the choice could then come down to room acoustics.

(Thinking aloud) So, for example, the difference between a Croft (£1,000 RRP) and the Pulse may just be a case of tweaking speaker positions or how each amp reacts to source. Would I be on the right lines in thinking that?

And, no, before anyone suggests I'm thinking about changing amp would be wrong, just trying to get a handle on how the two would play out in a basic environment.

 

[CJSF]

. . . withdrawn by CJSF

 

[Vladimir]

Simply put valves are very good at delivering voltage and SS is much better at delivering current as well.

Why MOSFET as SS poweramp stage and not Bipolar (BJT)?

Both MOSFETs and valves are voltage controlled devices. BJT transistors are current controlled devices. MOSFETS and triodes are practically interchangable in a circuit, large pentodes and MOSFETs behave equally. Thus the saying how MOSFETs sound like valves. That is because they are alike, with intrinsic synergy between them.

 

[plastic penguin]

Simply put valves are very good at delivering voltage and SS is much better at delivering current as well.

Why MOSFET as SS poweramp stage and not Bipolar (BJT)?

Both MOSFETs and valves are voltage controlled devices. BJT transistors are current controlled devices. MOSFETS and triodes are practically interchangable in a circuit, large pentodes and MOSFETs behave equally. Thus the saying how MOSFETs sound like valves. That is because they are alike, with intrinsic synergy between them.

Have you tested this theory?

 

[Vladimir]

Simply put valves are very good at delivering voltage and SS is much better at delivering current as well.

Why MOSFET as SS poweramp stage and not Bipolar (BJT)?

Both MOSFETs and valves are voltage controlled devices. BJT transistors are current controlled devices. MOSFETS and triodes are practically interchangable in a circuit, large pentodes and MOSFETs behave equally. Thus the saying how MOSFETs sound like valves. That is because they are alike, with intrinsic synergy between them.

Have you tested this theory?

It's a saying, not a theory, coming from factual synergy and similarity. Have fun! Clicky

(now the theory part)

Do they really sound alike? In controlled conditions with levels matched to 0.1dB, without clipping and no input overload, all amps should sound alike and most do. In extreme conditions some amplifiers draw cubism where others draw impressionism. If the speakers demanded current that the Icon couldn't supply but the Croft could, that would be a definite scenario where differences are audible and one amp had the advantage over the other. If the speakers were easy to drive and well behaved, all is well with both amps.

 

[plastic penguin]

Simply put valves are very good at delivering voltage and SS is much better at delivering current as well.

Why MOSFET as SS poweramp stage and not Bipolar (BJT)?

Both MOSFETs and valves are voltage controlled devices. BJT transistors are current controlled devices. MOSFETS and triodes are practically interchangable in a circuit, large pentodes and MOSFETs behave equally. Thus the saying how MOSFETs sound like valves. That is because they are alike, with intrinsic synergy between them.

Have you tested this theory?

It's a saying, not a theory, coming from factual synergy and similarity. Have fun! Clicky

(now the theory part)

Do they really sound alike? In controlled conditions with levels matched to 0.1dB, without clipping and no input overload, all amps should sound alike and most do. In extreme conditions some amplifiers draw cubism where others draw impressionism. If the speakers demanded current that the Icon couldn't supply but the Croft could, that would be a definite scenario where differences are audible and one amp had the advantage over the other. If the speakers were easy to drive and well behaved, all is well with both amps.

Once upon a time, if you asked a straightforward question on this forum it wouldn't too difficult to get an answer. Nowadays, it's easier to pull teeth...

Let me simplify the question: Have YOU *Vlad* compared your K2 BT (MOSFET) with a valve amp, not in "controlled conditions", but in a normal dem room or in your own dwelling?

 

[CnoEvil]

Ah, okay. It sounds as if the difference between a hybrid and standard SS amp can be marginal, so I suppose the choice could then come down to room acoustics.

(Thinking aloud) So, for example, the difference between a Croft (£1,000 RRP) and the Pulse may just be a case of tweaking speaker positions or how each amp reacts to source. Would I be on the right lines in thinking that?

And, no, before anyone suggests I'm thinking about changing amp would be wrong, just trying to get a handle on how the two would play out in a basic environment.

The difference can certainly vary, depending on the SS amp and depending on the Class of amp that the Valve Pre is paired to.

If for example, you like what a Valve amp does, but have speakers that are not "valve friendly" to drive, then a hybrid (eg. Pathos Logos) is a great idea. Peachtree is an example of a brand that mixes Valves with Class D.

 

[Vladimir]

Once upon a time, if you asked a straightforward question on this forum it wouldn't too difficult to get an answer. Nowadays, it's easier to pull teeth...

Let me simplify the question: Have YOU *Vlad* compared your K2 BT (MOSFET) with a valve amp, not in "controlled conditions", but in a normal dem room or in your own dwelling?

I haven't.

 

[CJSF]

, , , the weekends hifi hapenings were first a shock and then morphed into a revalation. I introduced the Icon into my system almost 2 years ago and have not been back seriously since, I think I had a breif comparison mid way but obviously not seriously enough?

I have made changes to the Icon based system, like adding the Icom PS1 Phono stage. A few changes to the TT; isolating the cartride from the arm, creating a flywheel type platter that also isolated the playing surface from motor and bearing, the CDP was uprated. The room has been revamped, as have speaker positions. The speakers have always been an issue in the back of my mind, not being very efficient in valve terms at 87db?

If I changed the speakers to something like 90db+ I'm sure things might have been different (might yet be) if I dont sell the Icon? The problem I have is, I like the way my speakers sound . . . that is Croft driven over the years as I built the vinyle side of my system. Easy on the ear, having an 80's sound, excelent, extended base (32hz according to PMC spec., sheet) considering their stand mount size. If you remember 'I wanted my old sound back', I had not realised it had gon away utill this last weekend*pardon*

So, I lost sight of the plot in the past 2 years? The Croft is universal in its abilities which I fine pleasing, Glen Crof can rebuilt the basic to the top 'R' spec., R standing for 'regulated', valve regulated I believe? This I'm told moves the amplifier in to a diferent leage with control being the watch word? A week or three befor I can get my hands on a home dem sample.

? . . . Points me in a different direction, if I dont sell the Icon, (not giving it away), I will look at speakers, see if I can liven things up, I might end up with two quality system amps?

A point that is rased in my mind . . . Steve, what speakers do you use and how efficient are they?

CJSF

 

[Jim-W]

I always enjoy your experiments. I'm now looking forward to you acquiring new, more efficient speakers and then not being able to resist the temptation of hooking up the Icon out of curiosity and a new post which will be entitled, 'Still not quite finished.....'

 

[plastic penguin]

Once upon a time, if you asked a straightforward question on this forum it wouldn't too difficult to get an answer. Nowadays, it's easier to pull teeth...

Let me simplify the question: Have YOU *Vlad* compared your K2 BT (MOSFET) with a valve amp, not in "controlled conditions", but in a normal dem room or in your own dwelling?

I haven't.

Tut, tut, Vlad.

I hate the hypocrasy of this forum. If I came anywhere near the claims you have made without physically hearing it for myself, I would be absolutely slaughtered by Chebby and a couple of others.

 

[Vladimir]

Tut, tut, Vlad.

I hate the hypocrasy of this forum. If I came anywhere near the claims you have made without physically hearing it for myself, I would be absolutely slaughtered by Chebby and a couple of others.

Jeez, it was just some soapbox time. Don't sic Chebby on me!

 

[Overdose]

Simply put valves are very good at delivering voltage and SS is much better at delivering current as well.

Why MOSFET as SS poweramp stage and not Bipolar (BJT)?

Both MOSFETs and valves are voltage controlled devices. BJT transistors are current controlled devices. MOSFETS and triodes are practically interchangable in a circuit, large pentodes and MOSFETs behave equally. Thus the saying how MOSFETs sound like valves. That is because they are alike, with intrinsic synergy between them.

Have you tested this theory?

It's a saying, not a theory, coming from factual synergy and similarity. Have fun! Clicky

(now the theory part)

Do they really sound alike? In controlled conditions with levels matched to 0.1dB, without clipping and no input overload, all amps should sound alike and most do. In extreme conditions some amplifiers draw cubism where others draw impressionism. If the speakers demanded current that the Icon couldn't supply but the Croft could, that would be a definite scenario where differences are audible and one amp had the advantage over the other. If the speakers were easy to drive and well behaved, all is well with both amps.

Once upon a time, if you asked a straightforward question on this forum it wouldn't too difficult to get an answer. Nowadays, it's easier to pull teeth...

Let me simplify the question: Have YOU *Vlad* compared your K2 BT (MOSFET) with a valve amp, not in "controlled conditions", but in a normal dem room or in your own dwelling?

I have.

The conclusion being that I wouldn't be rushing out to buy a valve amp on the results of that experience.

 

[CJSF]

I always enjoy your experiments. I'm now looking forward to you acquiring new, more efficient speakers and then not being able to resist the temptation of hooking up the Icon out of curiosity and a new post which will be entitled, 'Still not quite finished.....'

Problem is Jim, I want to get off the 'Merry-go-Round', the Icon is up for sale, there is interest all ready . . . staying with the Croft, the speaker efficency is not an issue, Croft amps will drive anything . . . so I keep my original sound . . . *ok*

Equaly of course, I do have this itch to try a pair of Jordan full range speakers, they have the same effiviency as my PMC as well as also being in a transmission line cabinet. Its that 'nothing in the way, direct wired to the amp' that I cant get out of my head, makes so much sence provided the amp is clean? That being the case, its downt to the room, working on that one.

The final thing is, musical pleasure, that is everything to me these days.

CJSF

 

[Jim-W]

I always enjoy your experiments. I'm now looking forward to you acquiring new, more efficient speakers and then not being able to resist the temptation of hooking up the Icon out of curiosity and a new post which will be entitled, 'Still not quite finished.....'

Problem is Jim, I want to get off the 'Merry-go-Round', the Icon is up for sale, there is interest all ready . . . staying with the Croft, the speaker efficency is not an issue, Croft amps will drive anything . . . so I keep my original sound . . . *ok*

Equaly of course, I do have this itch to try a pair of Jordan full range speakers, they have the same effiviency as my PMC as well as also being in a transmission line cabinet. Its that 'nothing in the way, direct wired to the amp' that I cant get out of my head, makes so much sence provided the amp is clean? That being the case, its downt to the room, working on that one.

The final thing is, musical pleasure, that is everything to me these days.

CJSF

I remember getting 'musical pleasure' from a tinny transistor radio and a dansette with a barely adequate mono loudspeaker. In fact, thinking about it, in terms of sheer musical excitement I'm not sure I've ever regained that experience; that's probably because music was new to me and The Beatles/Stones/Who and the American West Coast bands etc were all experimenting with exotic sounds. I'd probably be about 11 or 12.

How wonderful it must be to just listen to music without any consideration of achieving a perfect sonic reproduction of what went down in the studio. We're too damn clever for our own good, that's our trouble; no, not you and me, Cliff, humanity in general.

Regards.

 

[CJSF]

How wonderful it must be to just listen to music without any consideration of achieving a perfect sonic reproduction of what went down in the studio. We're too damn clever for our own good, that's our trouble; no, not you and me, Cliff, humanity in general.

Regards.

That kinda sums it up for me Jim . . . Taking it a stage further, we are too venerable, leave our selves wide open for other to take advantage . . . I think I might consider being a hermit . . . ?

CJSF

 

[chebby]

Taking it a stage further, we are too venerable ...

Speak for yourself CJ. I am not feeling at all venerable yet

 

[chebby]

I think I might consider being a hermit . . . ?

Hermits who post on internet forums aren't really doing it right.

 

[CJSF]

I think I might consider being a hermit . . . ?

Hermits who post on internet forums aren't really doing it right.

Only considering it Chebby, its a new breed . . . ?

CJSF

 

[CnoEvil]

Simply put valves are very good at delivering voltage and SS is much better at delivering current as well.

Why MOSFET as SS poweramp stage and not Bipolar (BJT)?

Both MOSFETs and valves are voltage controlled devices. BJT transistors are current controlled devices. MOSFETS and triodes are practically interchangable in a circuit, large pentodes and MOSFETs behave equally. Thus the saying how MOSFETs sound like valves. That is because they are alike, with intrinsic synergy between them.

Have you tested this theory?

It's a saying, not a theory, coming from factual synergy and similarity. Have fun! Clicky

(now the theory part)

Do they really sound alike? In controlled conditions with levels matched to 0.1dB, without clipping and no input overload, all amps should sound alike and most do. In extreme conditions some amplifiers draw cubism where others draw impressionism. If the speakers demanded current that the Icon couldn't supply but the Croft could, that would be a definite scenario where differences are audible and one amp had the advantage over the other. If the speakers were easy to drive and well behaved, all is well with both amps.

Once upon a time, if you asked a straightforward question on this forum it wouldn't too difficult to get an answer. Nowadays, it's easier to pull teeth...

Let me simplify the question: Have YOU *Vlad* compared your K2 BT (MOSFET) with a valve amp, not in "controlled conditions", but in a normal dem room or in your own dwelling?

I have.

The conclusion being that I wouldn't be rushing out to buy a valve amp on the results of that experience.

OD, what was the Valve Amp and what system was it in?

 

[Overdose]

Simply put valves are very good at delivering voltage and SS is much better at delivering current as well.

Why MOSFET as SS poweramp stage and not Bipolar (BJT)?

Both MOSFETs and valves are voltage controlled devices. BJT transistors are current controlled devices. MOSFETS and triodes are practically interchangable in a circuit, large pentodes and MOSFETs behave equally. Thus the saying how MOSFETs sound like valves. That is because they are alike, with intrinsic synergy between them.

Have you tested this theory?

It's a saying, not a theory, coming from factual synergy and similarity. Have fun! Clicky

(now the theory part)

Do they really sound alike? In controlled conditions with levels matched to 0.1dB, without clipping and no input overload, all amps should sound alike and most do. In extreme conditions some amplifiers draw cubism where others draw impressionism. If the speakers demanded current that the Icon couldn't supply but the Croft could, that would be a definite scenario where differences are audible and one amp had the advantage over the other. If the speakers were easy to drive and well behaved, all is well with both amps.

Once upon a time, if you asked a straightforward question on this forum it wouldn't too difficult to get an answer. Nowadays, it's easier to pull teeth...

Let me simplify the question: Have YOU *Vlad* compared your K2 BT (MOSFET) with a valve amp, not in "controlled conditions", but in a normal dem room or in your own dwelling?

I have.

The conclusion being that I wouldn't be rushing out to buy a valve amp on the results of that experience.

OD, what was the Valve Amp and what system was it in?

It was when I went to buy an amplifier years ago.

The amp was a Marantz PM-74, a very rare model and quite ahead of its time with an onboard 20bit DAC (so this tech is nothing new, just slow to be taken up). It was a powerful MOSFET amp with around 95W into 8 Ohms nominal IIRC. A lovely solid amp, but the DAC would show its age today.

I cannot recall the valve amp, but the point being that the Marantz was surplus to requirements, because its owner had just 'upgraded' to something much more expensive and 'better', ie this valve amp.

He let me listen to both amps, firstly to show that the Marantz worked perfectly and secondly to show what I could aspire to, if I decided to get a valve amp.

I could discern absolutely no difference between the two, so took off sharpish in case he realised the same and didn't want to part with the lovely Marantz.

I am still of the opinion that amps will not sound hugely different, if at all when used within their design capabilities. Speakers are where it's at as long as you have an amp, man enough to drive them.

I appreciate that this is anecdotal but, there is plenty of technical stuff out their to back up my opinion if you needed to seek it out.

 

[CnoEvil]

It was when I went to buy an amplifier years ago.

The amp was a Marantz PM-74, a very rare model and quite ahead of its time with an onboard 20bit DAC (so this tech is nothing new, just slow to be taken up). It was a powerful MOSFET amp with around 95W into 8 Ohms nominal IIRC. A lovely solid amp, but the DAC would show its age today.

I cannot recall the valve amp, but the point being that the Marantz was surplus to requirements, because its owner had just 'upgraded' to something much more expensive and 'better', ie this valve amp.

He let me listen to both amps, firstly to show that the Marantz worked perfectly and secondly to show what I could aspire to, if I decided to get a valve amp.

I could discern absolutely no difference between the two, so took off sharpish in case he realised the same and didn't want to part with the lovely Marantz.

I am still of the opinion that amps will not sound hugely different, if at all when used within their design capabilities. Speakers are where it's at as long as you have an amp, man enough to drive them.

I appreciate that this is anecdotal but, there is plenty of technical stuff out their to back up my opinion if you needed to seek it out.

Thx for that.

I still think you might be surprised what can be achieved by a powerful modern Valve amp from the likes of VTL (which can drive Focal Utopia Mystros).

*drinks*

 

[Vladimir]

Thx for that.

I still think you might be surprised what can be achieved by a powerful modern Valve amp from the likes of VTL (which can drive Focal Utopia Mystros).

*drinks*

Do they have high current capability? Those Focals are 93dB but have nasty impedances.

 

[Overdose]

It was when I went to buy an amplifier years ago.

The amp was a Marantz PM-74, a very rare model and quite ahead of its time with an onboard 20bit DAC (so this tech is nothing new, just slow to be taken up). It was a powerful MOSFET amp with around 95W into 8 Ohms nominal IIRC. A lovely solid amp, but the DAC would show its age today.

I cannot recall the valve amp, but the point being that the Marantz was surplus to requirements, because its owner had just 'upgraded' to something much more expensive and 'better', ie this valve amp.

He let me listen to both amps, firstly to show that the Marantz worked perfectly and secondly to show what I could aspire to, if I decided to get a valve amp.

I could discern absolutely no difference between the two, so took off sharpish in case he realised the same and didn't want to part with the lovely Marantz.

I am still of the opinion that amps will not sound hugely different, if at all when used within their design capabilities. Speakers are where it's at as long as you have an amp, man enough to drive them.

I appreciate that this is anecdotal but, there is plenty of technical stuff out their to back up my opinion if you needed to seek it out.

Thx for that.

I still think you might be surprised what can be achieved by a powerful modern Valve amp from the likes of VTL (which can drive Focal Utopia Mystros).

*drinks*

It wasn't that long ago.