Finished . . . !

[CJSF]

Afraid that is it, my whole thinking over the past 2 years has crumbled . . . the effort one put in to getting the best sound has gon up in a puff of metaphoric smoke, personal credability is rock bottom . . . Perhaps a good thing, I'm out of it, no more tweeking, fiddling, no more online arguments, simply sit down and enjoy the music.

Yep, with the lecy bill promting a re think, and re assesment, it appears the basic Croft Hybrid Intigrated can knock spots of the brutish Icon ST40 . . . *dash1* I have spent a lot of the past 48 hours listening to the Croft, via computer, CD and I dug out the vinyl, only 4 hours sleep last night!

CD and computer inputs are so relaxing and yet musicaly all there, thumping base, full presance mid and the top end is sublime, have I been kidding myself for 18 months, £1000 out performs £2000 (inc., Icon cap upgrade)?

I went back to a previous thread, pre Icon: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/croft-integrated

What have I been thinking??? . . . and that was pre PS1 Phono stage, a marrige with Croft made in heaven, my smile yesterday was so wide my head nearly fell in half!

Long discusions with Hazel, she has not been getting to bed either, the musicality, natural sound stage presentation, extra detail, and generalaly being drawn into the sound, not wanting to turn it off. We have decided to retune to our previous route system, the one I built over a 2 year period using and trusting the Croft. Nothing to do with electricity cost, we simply want that sound back.

There is room for some refinement in the Croft compared with the Icon, this extra smoothnes I think is offered by Croft's 'R' series intigrated, in disusion with Glen at this moment.

No more tweeking, I'm going back to my roots of the 80's to enjoy what I missed then. No valve rolling or periodic valve changing, simple musical pleasure. Anyone want a well cared for ST40 MkIII?

CJSF

 

[nopiano]

Crumbs, CJ, I wasn't expecting that. But then I imagine, neither were you!

Might I suggest up you don't dispose of anything just yet in case you have further thoughts? Meanwhile, think of all those light bulb watts you are consuming by staying up late!

All the best.

 

[plastic penguin]

Given all you had to experience with inflated bills think it is a wise decision.

It takes a big person to actually u-turn on a difficult decision. Enjoy the Croft. I'll raise my glass of... Croft original (would do if I had some.. *music2*

 

[CJSF]

Crumbs, CJ, I wasn't expecting that. But then I imagine, neither were you!

Might I suggest up you don't dispose of anything just yet in case you have further thoughts? Meanwhile, think of all those light bulb watts you are consuming by staying up late!

All the best.

*pardon* . . . more like 'kettle watts', all the cups of tea and coffee I drink in these long sessions, only one small table lamp in the listening room and thats an energy bulb . . . there is the warming of the milk for Horlicks . . . What a relief it all over.

 

[CnoEvil]

You already know this, but the enjoyment of music and the ability to properly assess a system, is often down to mood and the absence of anxiety.

Don't draw any conclusions until you are relaxed and happy with life again....each amp will have its strengths and it depends which of those you are homing in on (and value on a particular day).

 

[Macspur]

You already know this, but the enjoyment of music and the ability to properly assess a system, is often down to mood and the absence of anxiety.

Don't draw any conclusions until you are relaxed and happy with life again....each amp will have its strengths and it depends which of those you are homing in on (and value on a particular day).

Wise words as ever Cno.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[CJSF]

Well, one has settled down a bit now, after what was a shock!!!

Looked back over what one has been doing in the past two or three years, that is a bit shocking too . . . It apears I was wavering and not 100% convinced as to the differenced between Croft and Icon back then . . . I think I might have been kidding myself, was it the glowing valves I liked, they are very impressive to look at, the Croft by comparison is a bit 'plane Jane' but musicaly its a differant kettle of fish.

I think I've sorted what is hapening in my system, I touched on it in previous posts a year or so back, seen it mentioned elswhere too . . . The words are 'organic' and 'woody', the Croft is organic letting the reality of the music come to the fore, timbre, performance and life, all things that in my prefered 'unpluged' type music listening are in abundance. The Icom tends to be very smooth, great quality, but it papers over the cracks that are part of a performance, presenting it as a little woody? I'm also noticing the top end has less detail, rolling off, the Croft soars into the highs with amazing detail. Both amps seem to be equal at the bottom end, However the clincher for me is midrange, I will trade smooth for reality, alowing the personality, feeling and presance of the performance to come through, warts and all.

I'm in no hurry to move anything on, enjoying the reality of the Croft. It is true the Icom has a smoothness that is not found in the Croft but one considers its natural reality and detail, gems of musical performance to savour.

So with this in mind, I'm looking at the Croft 'R Series', Glen can rebuild my basic up to 'R' specification, the Phono stage has to go to make room for the extra electronics but the Icon PS1 Phono Stage, apears to be a superb match with the Croft. However befor I fall into another self laid trap, I will get the Croft 'R' intigrated on home dem.

Thats the story so far, its going to be a week or three befor I am able to here the Intigrted 'R' at home . . . how much extra do you get for the aditional £700 on the retail price? Is it that much better or just different . . . ? However things pan out, my 'hifi music system' is all but complete?

CJSF

 

[CnoEvil]

Are you totally sure that it's not the speakers that are worth a look...eg. Harbeth / LS50 / Audio Note?

 

[plastic penguin]

Well, one has settled down a bit now, after what was a shock!!!

Looked back over what one has been doing in the past two or three years, that is a bit shocking too . . . It apears I was wavering and not 100% convinced as to the differenced between Croft and Icon back then . . . I think I might have been kidding myself, was it the glowing valves I liked, they are very impressive to look at, the Croft by comparison is a bit 'plane Jane' but musicaly its a differant kettle of fish.

I think I've sorted what is hapening in my system, I touched on it in previous posts a year or so back, seen it mentioned elswhere too . . . The words are 'organic' and 'woody', the Croft is organic letting the reality of the music come to the fore, timbre, performance and life, all things that in my prefered 'unpluged' type music listening are in abundance. The Icom tends to be very smooth, great quality, but it papers over the cracks that are part of a performance, presenting it as a little woody? I'm also noticing the top end has less detail, rolling off, the Croft soars into the highs with amazing detail. Both amps seem to be equal at the bottom end, However the clincher for me is midrange, I will trade smooth for reality, alowing the personality, feeling and presance of the performance to come through, warts and all.

I'm in no hurry to move anything on, enjoying the reality of the Croft. It is true the Icom has a smoothness that is not found in the Croft but one considers its natural reality and detail, gems of musical performance to savour.

So with this in mind, I'm looking at the Croft 'R Series', Glen can rebuild my basic up to 'R' specification, the Phono stage has to go to make room for the extra electronics but the Icon PS1 Phono Stage, apears to be a superb match with the Croft. However befor I fall into another self laid trap, I will get the Croft 'R' intigrated on home dem.

Thats the story so far, its going to be a week or three befor I am able to here the Intigrted 'R' at home . . . how much extra do you get for the aditional £700 on the retail price? Is it that much better or just different . . . ? However things pan out, my 'hifi music system' is all but complete?

CJSF

Good to hear you're finding your musical niche. Just look at your experiences over the past couple of years as a leaning curve.

Keep smiling and enjoying the Croft.

 

[stevebrock]

I wonder how those lovely Harbeths sound with the ST40 Cliff?

Cant believe what I am reading if I am honest - but can understand !

If you decide to leave the Icon and commit to the a Croft R then hope you enjoy it !

Its took me ages to get where I am with my set - up, i love it - I really dont think I can see many changes going forward - an SME IV & MC cart I would love to try !

 

[plastic penguin]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

 

[stevebrock]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

Wind your neck in PP, I wasn't suggesting anything

I was merely posing a thought re: harbeths & valves

As at the end of my post - whatever amp Cliff decides on then hope he enjoys it

 

[CnoEvil]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

 

[CJSF]

Yep Harbeths might be in the pot . . . but I am so shocked by the experiences over the past couple of years and then this weekend, I simply dont want to get back on the band wagon . . . round and round, finaly disapearing up . . . !*!*!*!

I think there might be something in the match of my system, the TT worked so well, all those hours tweaking all with the Croft, it simply 'delivered', the PMC speakers were a window, not fogeting the abilities of the 'Foundation Designer stand'? . . . As said earlier in the thread, we want that relaxed, detailed sound back. I've had enough of fighting for an extra 0.01%. So often different not better, its not woth it.

An SME arm Steve, you should here my TT/arm/MC cartridge/MC transformer combination, with the PS1 phono through the Croft and PMC speakers, themselves conected with 8m of old fashioned K20 copper cable, a combination I never heard untill this weekend . . . simply stagering, that was a shock in its self over and above the amplifier revelations. Convincing me of something I have for a long time believed . . . 'the tiny signals produced by the source are best delt with by valves, after that its not so critical, more a matter of what you like'? A personal view.

I will porbably try the Harbeths at some time, just as a 'what if'? The end game is close, Croft is likely to win, perhaps with 'R' squad attached? But think about it Steve, £1000 plays £2000 . . . ? . . . at worst a draw, ST40 up for transfer?

Stepping back a year or three, CJSF

PS, an itch I may continue to persue is the full 'range speaker'. direct input, nothing in the way, makes sence to me . . . and certainly the 'room treatment' will be finished off.

 

[plastic penguin]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

Thought the Croft had valves.

 

[Vladimir]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

Thought the Croft had valves.

Valve/MOSFET hybrid, with Mullard ECC83 valves running in Class A.

 

[CJSF]

Valve/MOSFET hybrid, with Mullard ECC83 valves running in Class A.

Strange you should mention that Validimir, its been Horlicks hour for the past two and a half hours*smile* I have been sitting listening and turning the volume down, and down and etc., . . . and yet the dynamics, image and general presentation has not changed, my experiance with the Icon is a rather weedy sound at these sort of volume levels?

No expert on such things but I thought this quality at low volume was a trate of class A? Needless to say, I'm falling in love with the Croft all over again . . . *man_in_love*

CJSF

 

[Vladimir]

I think that would be the grand theater of MOSFETs, being driven by the super linear (due to Class A regime) Mullard valves. Switch the roles and the results won't be as good. Harbeths love current to flow.

The Croft carves where the Icon paints, possibly due to these differences in design.

 

[CnoEvil]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

Thought the Croft had valves.

Vlad is correct...Croft is a "halfway house", though is often the answer.

 

[CJSF]

Want an ST40, see VE clasified . . .

 

[stevebrock]

Want an ST40, see VE clasified . . .

i know someone who is !

 

[plastic penguin]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

Thought the Croft had valves.

Vlad is correct...Croft is a "halfway house", though is often the answer.

What's the difference in presentation between a valve amp and a valve hybrid?

 

[chebby]

What's the difference in presentation between a valve amp and a valve hybrid?

CJ described the differences between his two amps in post #7 earlier.

 

[CnoEvil]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

Thought the Croft had valves.

Vlad is correct...Croft is a "halfway house", though is often the answer.

What's the difference in presentation between a valve amp and a valve hybrid?

The weakness of Valves can be in the bass, which is often not as hard hitting, deep and controlled as Solid State. When you combine a Valve Pre with a SS power, to some extent you are then getting the best of both worlds.....though it's not always done successfully.

If one finds SS amps just a little too hard and edgy, it can be a great solution...but true "Tubaholics" are not prepared to compromise at all on the rich, emotional and vibrant sound of an all Valve set-up.

 

[Covenanter]

Can't believe some you lot. Rather than being pleased for him you're suggesting other speakers...

Icon, albeit a good amp, isn't the Holy Grail. Now whether CJ decides in a couple of weeks that the Icon IS right, perhaps look at speakers then.

CJ is a serial tweeker, so I was playings devils advocate, in case he was looking in the wrong place. In my bones, I feel that Valves should be at the heart of his system.

Thought the Croft had valves.

Vlad is correct...Croft is a "halfway house", though is often the answer.

What's the difference in presentation between a valve amp and a valve hybrid?

The weakness of Valves can be in the bass, which is often not as hard hitting, deep and controlled as Solid State. When you combine a Valve Pre with a SS power, to some extent you are then getting the best of both worlds.....though it's not always done successfully.

If one finds SS amps just a little too hard and edgy, it can be a great solution...but true "Tubaholics" are not prepared to compromise at all on the rich, emotional and vibrant sound of an all Valve set-up.

I won't let "emotional" pass! Do the electrons have tears in their eyes? I was one of the last generation who studied valves in my Electronics degree and I know inside out how they work. I've repaired more valve amps than anybody posting to this CB has years and I've built quite a few from scratch too. Valve amplifiers beneift from simplicity and from purity of design but that's it. You are a sensible chap so please don't bring "emotion" into it.

Chris