idc
Well-known member
We need a glossary of terms; forward, sound stage, resolution etc etc to work from. Examples from specific recordings would help to provide a standard. Just a suggestion
Tear Drop: Forward is not the same thing as brash, and bright is again different. I find the trumpet to be an extremely 'brash' live instrument, but it will never be forward, that is a distortion inherent in music/sound reproduction.
I second idc's suggestion for a glossary!
Tear Drop - I am not trying to be obtuse, just want to understand what you mean by "forward", ie an inherent distortion in music/sound reproduction. Do you mean some sounds (eg trumpet) in a piece of music (eg jazz) is "forward" from all the other instruments and "stand out" unnaturally from the rest due to distortion in reporduction??
I second idc's suggestion for a glossary!
Tear Drop - I am not trying to be obtuse, just want to understand what you mean by "forward", ie an inherent distortion in music/sound reproduction. Do you mean some sounds (eg trumpet) in a piece of music (eg jazz) is "forward" from all the other instruments and "stand out" unnaturally from the rest due to distortion in reporduction??
idc
Well-known member
AKL:
Tear Drop: Forward is not the same thing as brash, and bright is again different. I find the trumpet to be an extremely 'brash' live instrument, but it will never be forward, that is a distortion inherent in music/sound reproduction.
I second idc's suggestion for a glossary!
Tear Drop - I am not trying to be obtuse, just want to understand what you mean by "forward", ie an inherent distortion in music/sound reproduction. Do you mean some sounds (eg trumpet) in a piece of music (eg jazz) is "forward" from all the other instruments and "stand out" unnaturally from the rest due to distortion in reporduction??
I would suggest forward means that a certain part of the music does stand out, be that the bass, midrange or treble and forward can either sound natural or unnatural. However, the first definition is relatively objective, the latter subjective. For example, the bass on Bose is forward, but not unnatural, but it is tight, not muddy and does not overpower the midrange or treble.
Tear Drop: Forward is not the same thing as brash, and bright is again different. I find the trumpet to be an extremely 'brash' live instrument, but it will never be forward, that is a distortion inherent in music/sound reproduction.
I second idc's suggestion for a glossary!
Tear Drop - I am not trying to be obtuse, just want to understand what you mean by "forward", ie an inherent distortion in music/sound reproduction. Do you mean some sounds (eg trumpet) in a piece of music (eg jazz) is "forward" from all the other instruments and "stand out" unnaturally from the rest due to distortion in reporduction??
I would suggest forward means that a certain part of the music does stand out, be that the bass, midrange or treble and forward can either sound natural or unnatural. However, the first definition is relatively objective, the latter subjective. For example, the bass on Bose is forward, but not unnatural, but it is tight, not muddy and does not overpower the midrange or treble.
Another factor to consider is of course, how the music or instrument was recorded. Classical music will take into account the positioning, depth and acoustics of the instrument. Pop music and a lot of other genres are produced to have a very artificial soundstage and EQ. The production has a totally different ethos. My system sounds superb with classical, brass sounds like brass and string like string. Put pop music through it and it sounds forward, just how it was produced.
Forward might indeed mean that some element is unnatural and "in your face". A lot of music is produced in this way so that even a neutral system will reproduce such forwardness. Stick it on a bright system and things get unpleasant. The last time this was a problem for me was when I auditioned a Cyrus 8VS amp, Dynaudio Focus 110 speakers with a Unison Unico CDP; forward to the extreme.
Well recorded classical music is a good test. Of course, all of this is academic unless your music sounds good to you. This brings me back to agreeing that a coloured system suits many; the inherent forwardness of a lot of music is evened out.
Forward might indeed mean that some element is unnatural and "in your face". A lot of music is produced in this way so that even a neutral system will reproduce such forwardness. Stick it on a bright system and things get unpleasant. The last time this was a problem for me was when I auditioned a Cyrus 8VS amp, Dynaudio Focus 110 speakers with a Unison Unico CDP; forward to the extreme.
Well recorded classical music is a good test. Of course, all of this is academic unless your music sounds good to you. This brings me back to agreeing that a coloured system suits many; the inherent forwardness of a lot of music is evened out.
manicm
Well-known member
I believe a good hifi system can be fast, punchy, revealing and listenable - it involves some effort though to get the right mix.
I'm also with Chebby here - I have the feeling depth and imaging/transparency is increasingly neglected in mid-range hifi nowadays and I think a finger can be pointed to many here.
This is also a matter of personal taste and I compare it to a car - for me straight line speed is nothing if I'm not smiling in bends.
Also, as igglebert commented, I think once listeners get a taste of good transparency there'll be no turning back to mediocrity.
I'm also with Chebby here - I have the feeling depth and imaging/transparency is increasingly neglected in mid-range hifi nowadays and I think a finger can be pointed to many here.
This is also a matter of personal taste and I compare it to a car - for me straight line speed is nothing if I'm not smiling in bends.
Also, as igglebert commented, I think once listeners get a taste of good transparency there'll be no turning back to mediocrity.
chebby
Well-known member
What would be helpful is something on the amp that can subtly alter bass impact and treble brightness to adjust for different types of recordings, rooms and 'speakers.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
chebby:
What would be helpful is something on the amp that can subtly alter bass impact and treble brightness to adjust for different types of recordings, rooms and 'speakers.
Tone controls? I know many amps don't have them. . . Just a thought. . .
What would be helpful is something on the amp that can subtly alter bass impact and treble brightness to adjust for different types of recordings, rooms and 'speakers.
Tone controls? I know many amps don't have them. . . Just a thought. . .
chebby:
What would be helpful is something on the amp that can subtly alter bass impact and treble brightness to adjust for different types of recordings, rooms and 'speakers.
...nobody'll do that, far too risky.
What would be helpful is something on the amp that can subtly alter bass impact and treble brightness to adjust for different types of recordings, rooms and 'speakers.
...nobody'll do that, far too risky.
chebby
Well-known member
plastic penguin:chebby:
What would be helpful is something on the amp that can subtly alter bass impact and treble brightness to adjust for different types of recordings, rooms and 'speakers.
Tone controls? I know many amps don't have them. . . Just a thought. . .
Indeed. But they have not been respectable since the earth was made flat in the early 1980s.
Audiophiles once had things like these to tweak....
But now the more respectable method is to change your loudspeakers (or your amp) if you wish to make such minor adjustments. Far more sensible.
Want to beef up the bass or tame the treble? Buy 400 quid's worth of new cable. Easy. Or do as someone suggested earlier and buy a whole second system and switch between them depending on your mood and the music.
What would be helpful is something on the amp that can subtly alter bass impact and treble brightness to adjust for different types of recordings, rooms and 'speakers.
Tone controls? I know many amps don't have them. . . Just a thought. . .
Indeed. But they have not been respectable since the earth was made flat in the early 1980s.
Audiophiles once had things like these to tweak....
But now the more respectable method is to change your loudspeakers (or your amp) if you wish to make such minor adjustments. Far more sensible.
Want to beef up the bass or tame the treble? Buy 400 quid's worth of new cable. Easy. Or do as someone suggested earlier and buy a whole second system and switch between them depending on your mood and the music.
manicm
Well-known member
That topic again, it's still personal taste, and I loathe them. I think the extra cost of tone controls should go into making a better amp without them.
What is at fault that produces this above sound is a lack of 'reservoir capacitance'.
This is one of the main benefits of plugging in a Cyrus PSX unit onto the amp for instance. Plus of course isolating the larger power supply from the pre amp in separate boxes.
It makes the sound fuller and more musical, but is still underpowered to have great effortless presence IMO.
Unfortunately it is really hard to buy anything off the shelf that gives that sweet, musical performance that stirs your soul nowadays.
This is one of the main benefits of plugging in a Cyrus PSX unit onto the amp for instance. Plus of course isolating the larger power supply from the pre amp in separate boxes.
It makes the sound fuller and more musical, but is still underpowered to have great effortless presence IMO.
Unfortunately it is really hard to buy anything off the shelf that gives that sweet, musical performance that stirs your soul nowadays.
BTW Trevor, have you ever compared Chord Odyssey 2 with Kimber 4TC? I'm curious to know what the differences are between a good copper cable and a good silver plated copper cable. I do rather love my treble though...
idc
Well-known member
chebby:
Correct me if I am wrong about the Audiolab (as I remember such things existing elsewhere) but the button between the tone controls allows you to switch the tone controls on and off. A good compromise if you ask me. The ipod has various EQ settings (I use jazz) including one set to flat and itunes itself has an EQ that allows customised settings( which I use). I have never read of such being criticised, so I can only deduce that it is a good thing. My Yamaha cassette deck had Play Trim and various dolby settings to fine tune sound and it constantly won awards in What Hifi. So are tone controls really such a bad thing? It may have saved some too fast and punchy systems from becoming unlistenable.
Correct me if I am wrong about the Audiolab (as I remember such things existing elsewhere) but the button between the tone controls allows you to switch the tone controls on and off. A good compromise if you ask me. The ipod has various EQ settings (I use jazz) including one set to flat and itunes itself has an EQ that allows customised settings( which I use). I have never read of such being criticised, so I can only deduce that it is a good thing. My Yamaha cassette deck had Play Trim and various dolby settings to fine tune sound and it constantly won awards in What Hifi. So are tone controls really such a bad thing? It may have saved some too fast and punchy systems from becoming unlistenable.
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