Thanks for info on that. Hadn’t heard of it, but it’s obviously a totally different design to what an isotek Aquarius does. I’ve no doubt the audioquest performs very well in right system, but look at what’s in an Aquarius. It’s not high tech, in fact if I had gcse or a levels electronics or beyond, I reckon I could design one. That’s why it’s not value, plus it doesn’t get anywhere near same sound improvements of most £1500 amp upgrades.
we all have different experiences quest yours is yours thats fair enough.
Bearing in mind for 1500 it upgrades everything you plug into it not just an amp so 1500 /6 sockets so about 250 a socket its actually not that much when you look at it like that.
Bearing in mind for 1500 it upgrades everything you plug into it not just an amp so 1500 /6 sockets so about 250 a socket its actually not that much when you look at it like that.
I accept people’s experiences but with my points I made in mind, I’d find it extremely galling to spend £1500 on an isotek Aquarius considering its rudimentary design and not much in it (and it probably doesn’t have much circuit / component design involved), whilst I accept it has to sell at these types of prices in a limited market, and good luck to anyone who can sell something like that for £1500. But the opposite argument is, some say, that these types of conditioners often don’t improve sound but choke dynamics. My experience is they do help and didn’t choke dynamics, but is it worth it. They used to sell isotek Polaris blocks for £250 or so, now I think they are £400.
QuestForThe13thNote said:
A lot of what you said agrees with my experience. I have not liked the effect of most Conditioners (except prohibitively expensive ones) and Mains Regenerators. The only item that I did like, was an Atlas Balanced Mains Transformer (which they stopped making as the price of Copper soared).
Nothing changes in these debates, as this long thread shows: https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/mains-blocks-conditioners-regenerators
It takes stamina to put your head above the parapet - which is why I seldom bother these days.
QuestForThe13thNote said:
It was an Isol8, which I borrowed.
You should read the thread I linked to...where I discuss my experience and viewpoints.
its an interesting point made on how many bits are inside the Aquarius.
if there are 50 bits in there and it improves the sound why would they put more in? would you pay 1500 if it had 100 bits in it or 200 and it did the same thing?
The Aquarius stopped all the measurable mains noise at bristol all of it I have it all on film. It was the product that everyone kept mentioning when I asked them about what they heard in terms of differences.
looking at 25 + different people all at different times.
thats why I suggested it as a good place to start for purposes of personal investigation into the topic.
What you have just bought has far less in it but you are still happy with it thats whats important
if there are 50 bits in there and it improves the sound why would they put more in? would you pay 1500 if it had 100 bits in it or 200 and it did the same thing?
The Aquarius stopped all the measurable mains noise at bristol all of it I have it all on film. It was the product that everyone kept mentioning when I asked them about what they heard in terms of differences.
looking at 25 + different people all at different times.
thats why I suggested it as a good place to start for purposes of personal investigation into the topic.
What you have just bought has far less in it but you are still happy with it thats whats important
I read some of it, and your one mentioning Tacima I think (which I found rubbish too) and your comments about isol8, but 109 posts I think so a bit long to trawl through it. Tbh I didn’t know they were into it because I thought they only do conditioners, but I see from their website they had a legacy regenerator called a power station.
ellisdj said:
my thinking wasn’t how much is in it necessarily by itself, but value Ellis which I think is a fair point. I’d be happy to pay on power leads and basic block which does just as much as a conditioner, if not more. I don’t need more in it for it to be value per see, say if someone came up with an amazing simple design, but roughly speaking there isn’t much more tech and design in an Aquarius to what I’ve bought. But a big jump in price. It also a preference thing as to what the sound does, which will be system dependent too.
and please don’t get me wrong, you are talking to someone on the same page as you with conditioners and I’m the converted on them. I rate them a lot, I just don’t think at home they are value, given my recent experiences.
Id accept this is totally different experience for someone else. The demo I sat through was with Larsen speakers and exposure amp and CD player.
That Niagara 7000 is an unfortunate name as it connotes an idea of something going down as in waterfall (I’m sure it’s a fab product). It should be the viagara 7000. It goes up in performance. Maybe that’s not how they spell viagara. lol.
quest I have built what you have just bought, to its limits with the best cable plugs connections etc. it doesnt do the same as a filtering mains conditoner. You can prefer one over the other thats fine but its not the same thing
ifor
Well-known member
”The conditioners do play to an ideal of being good because they condition, like making your hair great.”, in a thread about HiFi?
Does anyone here know what they’re talking about?
Does anyone here know what they’re talking about?
gasolin
Well-known member
I have a very old danish power distributor with a filter and it's good, one thing i have never tried before is a power conditioner,they are all so expensive, why?
iMark
Well-known member
gasolin said:
The more expensive the equipment that doesn't do anything, the more expectation bias kicks in. The power cable conmerchants are very good at marketing their wares to the restless tinkerers.
ellisdj said:
Not it’s not the same thing but I was just looking at which is better, because if you do one there is the opportunity cost of the other. You can’t have both. So was your experience that an isotek Aquarius is better sq wise than a passive proprietary hi Fi block and dedicated hi Fi power cables into power amps? Not sure what comparison you made.
To recap my experience was
a) isol-8 minisub axis 6 gang power conditioner - £1300, standard cyrus mains cables - 8/10 as a change to sq (not related to price, absolute score). Good rich sound, with more detail, nice tight bass. To my taste and could easily have lived with it.
b) Titan Styx power block (£150), 3 Helios cables (175 each) , total £600 with discount - 8 or 9/10 as an absolute score . Huge detail and more than the isol-8, lovely deep taught bass and deeper than the isol-8 but not so smoothed. Not to my taste, but could be to others with hike in detail. Was to my taste with Styx and mains cable, plus cable on streamer.
so one costs £1300, the other £600, hence raising value for money. But if adding cables to the Aquarius takes it into territory well beyond quality of option b, it would be worth it, but that’s a lot more spending on top, and would it be value for money.
re read your answers there dude - the first one was to your taste the second one there is bits coming over thats not sitting right with you.
Could these bits be the noise thats there and the fact you improved the systems resolving power your hearing that as well as everything else - thats been my experience - think on that for a minute.
Making changes doesnt guarantee audio nirvana it might be the next step to improvement but also realisation of mistake - all part of the learning curve.
Noise in the treble is often harshness and brittlnes imo, mids you get away with it until you hear it gone then its audible smear and sometimes leaness to the sound. Pushes the vocal back in the sound stage and reduces instrument separation in the soundstage as a whole
Noise on the bass can actually be percieved as better bass - fuller and more rounded - sometimes the much cleaner bass is much leaner but more articulate - notes not just boom boom boom. Thats the first thing people notice in the Isotek A/B demo going from the Ikea strip to one of their filtered strips - the bass is tighter - its notes not just noise.
I started with a block like what you have just bought powering my front end (I still have it in the loft) also an Isotek Titan on amp and subs, then I built myself a block using to me better bits Furutech Plugs etc - however I always had harshness and digitalness to the sound no matter what I did. I was accustomed to it however other fresh ears coming in would point it out in one way or another and make me realise its not right.
Going to the HiFi Show Live in 2016 was the big eye opener for me after coming back from that all I heard with my own system was noise
I changed my DIY block for a used Isotek Orion so I had some filtering in the front end components - this cost me about 1/5 the cost of making my own block and I thought it would probably be worse not better but it was worth a punt for the cost and I just wanted to see and that was me realising my mistake - I have had filtering on the whole system since.
Shortly after that I bought an Isotek Nova for the front end much better than the Isotek orion as it has filtering per socket like the aquarius. Now I am using the Audioquest Niagara 7000 on loan and I would love to buy it as its one better again.
I gave the orion to a pal I think he uses it instead of a non filtered block that he had.
You can buy the little plug in shunt filters and plug it into one of the spare sockets of your block and see if it does anything - might balance out the bit thats not to your liking for about £40 - you can sell it on if it doesnt work for you if you buy a branded one. Loads of companies make them
Could these bits be the noise thats there and the fact you improved the systems resolving power your hearing that as well as everything else - thats been my experience - think on that for a minute.
Making changes doesnt guarantee audio nirvana it might be the next step to improvement but also realisation of mistake - all part of the learning curve.
Noise in the treble is often harshness and brittlnes imo, mids you get away with it until you hear it gone then its audible smear and sometimes leaness to the sound. Pushes the vocal back in the sound stage and reduces instrument separation in the soundstage as a whole
Noise on the bass can actually be percieved as better bass - fuller and more rounded - sometimes the much cleaner bass is much leaner but more articulate - notes not just boom boom boom. Thats the first thing people notice in the Isotek A/B demo going from the Ikea strip to one of their filtered strips - the bass is tighter - its notes not just noise.
I started with a block like what you have just bought powering my front end (I still have it in the loft) also an Isotek Titan on amp and subs, then I built myself a block using to me better bits Furutech Plugs etc - however I always had harshness and digitalness to the sound no matter what I did. I was accustomed to it however other fresh ears coming in would point it out in one way or another and make me realise its not right.
Going to the HiFi Show Live in 2016 was the big eye opener for me after coming back from that all I heard with my own system was noise
I changed my DIY block for a used Isotek Orion so I had some filtering in the front end components - this cost me about 1/5 the cost of making my own block and I thought it would probably be worse not better but it was worth a punt for the cost and I just wanted to see and that was me realising my mistake - I have had filtering on the whole system since.
Shortly after that I bought an Isotek Nova for the front end much better than the Isotek orion as it has filtering per socket like the aquarius. Now I am using the Audioquest Niagara 7000 on loan and I would love to buy it as its one better again.
I gave the orion to a pal I think he uses it instead of a non filtered block that he had.
You can buy the little plug in shunt filters and plug it into one of the spare sockets of your block and see if it does anything - might balance out the bit thats not to your liking for about £40 - you can sell it on if it doesnt work for you if you buy a branded one. Loads of companies make them
I totally agree with your assessment on changes with treble and bass. Still not sure though of your opinion on whether or not an isotek Aquarius type device (not a Niagara) is better or worse than a power block and cables, for your taste on sq ie what you like in what the relative things these do in your system.
the cyrus power amps do have much more resolving power with the Helios cables, quite a bit more to an unnatural degree, but all the issues with hazy treble become apparent. but cyrus told me that they tune the sound with the kettle leads they supply, so if they had designed the power amps to have more detail and this treble etc, they would no doubt have used or recommended them or specced different kettle type leads.
So my next trial is to try power chords with conductors more similar to the kettle leads but are well insulated and screened for rfi. As you tend to go up the range of these companies power cables, you tend to get thicker and purer conductors for more bass slam and no doubt resolving power , as well as better shielded cables to lower noise floor. The shielding bit I want, but not the extra slam or resolving power with potentially hazy treble. If that gives unfavourable sound, I’ll just keep the kettle leads and buy a power cable for the streamer. I’ve given two of the Helios back so have a bit of cash to play with. Apparently some kettle leads do state the diameter of conductors on the lead, so it makes sense to check the cyrus supplied ones as to what they are.
the cyrus power amps do have much more resolving power with the Helios cables, quite a bit more to an unnatural degree, but all the issues with hazy treble become apparent. but cyrus told me that they tune the sound with the kettle leads they supply, so if they had designed the power amps to have more detail and this treble etc, they would no doubt have used or recommended them or specced different kettle type leads.
So my next trial is to try power chords with conductors more similar to the kettle leads but are well insulated and screened for rfi. As you tend to go up the range of these companies power cables, you tend to get thicker and purer conductors for more bass slam and no doubt resolving power , as well as better shielded cables to lower noise floor. The shielding bit I want, but not the extra slam or resolving power with potentially hazy treble. If that gives unfavourable sound, I’ll just keep the kettle leads and buy a power cable for the streamer. I’ve given two of the Helios back so have a bit of cash to play with. Apparently some kettle leads do state the diameter of conductors on the lead, so it makes sense to check the cyrus supplied ones as to what they are.
Im not sure on that when the price goes up cnoevil. A £50 cable tuned for a £3000 cyrus dac xp signature or pair of mono x300 signature power amps about £6000 I think, would be a very small proportion of the price. I suspect if cyrus went to say clearer audio and asked them to design a cable for all cyrus units, or another other similar manufacturer did the same, the licensing deal wouldn’t make the cost of the cable £175, but this £50 for argument sake, as clearer audio would do better by more scaleability. Also it gives upselling capability to the manufacturer.
I agree with you people have their favourite cable and to choose themselves, but i think this still doesn’t detract from a unit which I think probably does, for the majority, have a much better sound using better shielded and quality mains cables, than these kettle leads, and it’s very bizarre on this basis that cyrus (or another similar brand) keep the status quo.
I agree with you people have their favourite cable and to choose themselves, but i think this still doesn’t detract from a unit which I think probably does, for the majority, have a much better sound using better shielded and quality mains cables, than these kettle leads, and it’s very bizarre on this basis that cyrus (or another similar brand) keep the status quo.
QuestForThe13thNote said:
IMO. The reason that "better" P/Cs aren't supplied with components are as follows:
- People who think they make absolutely no difference, would be unhappy having to pay the extra cost it would add to the price.
- People who think they do make a difference, often have their favorite brands and differing budgets.
So the sensible thing to do, is provide a basic one and let people do their own thing.
As an aside, here is Shunyata measuring their foo (probably marketing b/s to baffle the ignorant). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qCK--lRFd0
QuestForThe13thNote said:
You are looking at this from the perspective of someone who thinks P/Cs make a difference. Do you not think that someone who doesn't, would rather have the 50 Quid in their pocket...and might even decide against a brand that includes snake oil with their product.
As a company, they don't want to alienate any potential customer - it's really a matter of a sensible marketing stratagy.
Naim have their own expensive P/C, as does Rega...which is usually an after market purchase.
Regardless of beliefs I think these manufacturers will do what’s best according to their ideals on design, and you go with that or not and trust it on the whole design ie what it sounds like. I don’t think it would be a deal breaking, something as relatively minor to purchasing decision as the cable going with the unit. I suspect most consumers of high end products just buy and leave it like that, whether it’s a topic to us lot. But in any event you wouldn’t probably know what’s in the supplied cable. The chord screened ones look like standard kettle leads. For all I know if I cut open my cyrus leads they may have layered screening.
I was just looking at the cable to a Sony video recorder I’ve got (I’m digitalising music) and it states 2 x 0.75mm relating to the size of wires. Looking at the cyrus kettle leads they are thicker, probably 1.5mm Darren from clearer audio thought. So even there you’ve got them selecting a cable to suit the purpose, no doubt to achieve designed current delivery, so it’s really no different in a the hi Fi manufacturer designing or specking from someone else dialectric screening around the cable to stop interfearance etc, or going on what the cable firm say is best etc.
I was just looking at the cable to a Sony video recorder I’ve got (I’m digitalising music) and it states 2 x 0.75mm relating to the size of wires. Looking at the cyrus kettle leads they are thicker, probably 1.5mm Darren from clearer audio thought. So even there you’ve got them selecting a cable to suit the purpose, no doubt to achieve designed current delivery, so it’s really no different in a the hi Fi manufacturer designing or specking from someone else dialectric screening around the cable to stop interfearance etc, or going on what the cable firm say is best etc.
CnoEvil said:
This. I was looking on Instagram last night and had an advert for a hifi store pop onto my feed, scrolling down I’m thinking “ooh, interesting looking dac, what is it and how much” followed by “£900 speaker cable, you can f*** right off with your bs foo”. Still thought the dac looked good but not interested in buying from that place, some people get quite offended at the thought of having their intelligence insulted and would be suspicious of a manufacturer that bought into cable bollox. My thought process would be if they believe in that sort of thing how can I trust they know how to design an amp (or whatever).
Macspur
Well-known member
I have played around with power chords in the past, but wasn't willing to pay silly money for small returns... that's not to say I'm a non believer, I am and have heard differences for myself.
I now have 3 Russ Andrews Classics, picked up second hand, well made and a good fit
Mac
www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
I now have 3 Russ Andrews Classics, picked up second hand, well made and a good fit
Mac
www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
quest I was making the suggestion to Sabbath before we got into it mate. You have just bought your products dude so I am not suggesting you change anything.
I do think filtering products are different to non yes and I see them as a necessity not an accessory pinching the phrase
I do think filtering products are different to non yes and I see them as a necessity not an accessory pinching the phrase
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