Cheers mate, that's great! I did look at putting the speakers on the wall but decided against it in the end to have more flexibility. I will definitely look in too moving my system around. I don't think I will be able to move the TV though, I think it will stay where it is. I have looked at Hifi racks stands before but decided against because of the price, besides my stand can take loads of weight and I won't be changing my TV for years.ellisdj said:
The fire place can't come out. And I put that fake one in to stop the wind from coming down the chimney. Works well.ellisdj said:
What do you mean by a professionally installation and how much does it cost and who does it? I pay a guy I know from who used to work at Technosound to setup my amp and he does a great job. Still the 850 Arcam then, I think David likes that too. Cheers.CnoEvil said:
I get what you mean! In front of the fire place. Don't think I would have enough room and my Sky HD box has short cables. I will look at it though. Taellisdj said:
2 things to stop wind coming down the chimney - mdf and glue / sealant - total cost £15 tops. If you dont use the fire for heating its just in the way of full cinematic sound. Have you ever seen a cinema with the system off to one side.
If you dont move the TV you will never get a proper front sound stage as it will always sound odd and off to one side no matter what you do. Speaker placement is Critical for sound - as critical as the speaker quality itself.
There are loads of speakers in the MK range I dont have enough experience to suggest one or the other to be honest but they are wall mount designs same as XTZ - these are better for limited space installations like yours, but its pointless with things as they are.
Why wont you change them - I dont see the love for a metal and glass stand. Do you not think a wood based stand would hold enough weight. Of Course it would. HiFi racks are expensive but its the custom size option that will allow you to fit it into your exact space and you can mount the TV as well
If you dont move the TV you will never get a proper front sound stage as it will always sound odd and off to one side no matter what you do. Speaker placement is Critical for sound - as critical as the speaker quality itself.
There are loads of speakers in the MK range I dont have enough experience to suggest one or the other to be honest but they are wall mount designs same as XTZ - these are better for limited space installations like yours, but its pointless with things as they are.
Why wont you change them - I dont see the love for a metal and glass stand. Do you not think a wood based stand would hold enough weight. Of Course it would. HiFi racks are expensive but its the custom size option that will allow you to fit it into your exact space and you can mount the TV as well
gel said:
By proffesionally done, I mean using someone who either does it for a living (or used to do it for a living).
What it may cost could depend on:
- Whether you are buying equipment from them.
- How far they have to travel
- The rates for the area you are in.
If your guy falls into that catagory, then it seems a sensible solution.
As for the amp, it is simply my preference....having heard highend offerings from Anthem and Pioneer.
As others have said, you need to hear other offerings at different prices....it's just the better SQ/Control/EQ/Processing of better amps, make a difference for me.
gel said:
I don't think it will make any appreciable difference, and is likely to be another pointless waste of money.
Its not a waste of money buying a better amp - especially not one that good.
However plugging it in with everything as it is - mostly all wrong wont let you get anything like the benefits you can get, so in a way its a waste of money.
Sound is a bugga - it always requires more of you than ideally you want to give, but ultimately must give if you want it to be really good. There is no way around it, doesnt matter what you buy its only what you do that matters.
However plugging it in with everything as it is - mostly all wrong wont let you get anything like the benefits you can get, so in a way its a waste of money.
Sound is a bugga - it always requires more of you than ideally you want to give, but ultimately must give if you want it to be really good. There is no way around it, doesnt matter what you buy its only what you do that matters.
Thanks. I do love my stand. And I love it even more now I know it will take a lot more weight. I know the Hifi racks take about 100kg per shelf too. Just seems a lot of money for that.ellisdj said:
I will use an example - I went to a dealers for a demo of the Arcam AVR600 a few years ago.
Admittedly it was a drop in siutation not a prebooked demo - however the Arcam AVR600 was already setup with B&W CM speakers and matching sub (rubbish)
At the time I had B&W 805 speakers and centre and was looking for a better amp than my Yamaha Z7 - my cousin had just bought the Pioneer LX83 with Monitor Audio Apex and I really liked the speed and accuracy of the sound compared to the Yamaha and B&W combo I had. It sounded like the amp wasnt enough for the speakers - as it very much wasnt, but it wasnt just that - the pioneer was playing back layers of detail that was mush from the Yamaha by comparison.
So bearing in mind it was a drop in demo - the dealer put on the Michael Jackson Blu Ray and Terminator Salvation and a few other bits. Straight away things didnt sound right, it was ok but not great, certainly not worth the money overall for the system. The system balance was awful - clearly setup by what I can only call a noddy and it was in a completely glass booth room.
I appreciate that might be good for keeping an eye on punters but for sound - horrendous conditions.
Going back to my couins after with more effort and attention paid to the setup on a system of about 1/3 the cost it sounded miles better, so I bought an LX83 that I reaally like and that went onto a good owner when I went pre and power and who still uses it happily to this day.
I have no doubts the Arcam would be a better amp than the Pioneer in perfect conditions but the better amp wont make up for fundamental flaws in the setup, just like what I experienced - even one with Dirac Live.
Dirac Live will be an amazing tool in the right hands - buts its not a magic wand. No room correction eq or whatever tool is a magic wand despite what they might sell them as.
Admittedly it was a drop in siutation not a prebooked demo - however the Arcam AVR600 was already setup with B&W CM speakers and matching sub (rubbish)
At the time I had B&W 805 speakers and centre and was looking for a better amp than my Yamaha Z7 - my cousin had just bought the Pioneer LX83 with Monitor Audio Apex and I really liked the speed and accuracy of the sound compared to the Yamaha and B&W combo I had. It sounded like the amp wasnt enough for the speakers - as it very much wasnt, but it wasnt just that - the pioneer was playing back layers of detail that was mush from the Yamaha by comparison.
So bearing in mind it was a drop in demo - the dealer put on the Michael Jackson Blu Ray and Terminator Salvation and a few other bits. Straight away things didnt sound right, it was ok but not great, certainly not worth the money overall for the system. The system balance was awful - clearly setup by what I can only call a noddy and it was in a completely glass booth room.
I appreciate that might be good for keeping an eye on punters but for sound - horrendous conditions.
Going back to my couins after with more effort and attention paid to the setup on a system of about 1/3 the cost it sounded miles better, so I bought an LX83 that I reaally like and that went onto a good owner when I went pre and power and who still uses it happily to this day.
I have no doubts the Arcam would be a better amp than the Pioneer in perfect conditions but the better amp wont make up for fundamental flaws in the setup, just like what I experienced - even one with Dirac Live.
Dirac Live will be an amazing tool in the right hands - buts its not a magic wand. No room correction eq or whatever tool is a magic wand despite what they might sell them as.
Yep, we did get to the B&W 805s as fronts and the HTM 2 I think as centre and the db1 as sub, and the cm6 as rears I think. With the Arcam 850 as amp. Cno had some interesting combinations on Kef too costing a lot less too.David@FrankHarvey said:
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
800s would be, but I believe we have been talking about 805s? Even I could squeeze 805s in, and my space is 12x14ft.ellisdj said:
You dont have to a buy a hifi racks stand - but making a plan to change for the better of the sound and overall experience is a good plan to make.
I think plan the whole thing out and do it in one hit.
The only way to know if this is worth it to you or not is to go and hear proper setup systems and see if they interest you enough to make a change.
No disrespect intended to any dealers with this comment - however I have had much better demos from dealers with permanent installations over ones that are changing kit all the time to demo different options to people - that stands to reason really but its something to bear in mind if you are only the hunt for what can I get - how good does it get experience.
That is the best place to start to see if you want it or are actually happy with it how it is
I think plan the whole thing out and do it in one hit.
The only way to know if this is worth it to you or not is to go and hear proper setup systems and see if they interest you enough to make a change.
No disrespect intended to any dealers with this comment - however I have had much better demos from dealers with permanent installations over ones that are changing kit all the time to demo different options to people - that stands to reason really but its something to bear in mind if you are only the hunt for what can I get - how good does it get experience.
That is the best place to start to see if you want it or are actually happy with it how it is
Yep, I am definitely worried that it won't sound right. I am also so use to my current sound. I just wish I bought the Susano of David and then upgraded my system at a later stage to suit that amp! Which speakers would've suited that amp?ellisdj said:
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Theres no real excuse for a system to sound so bad. Even if the room is a hindering factor, the staff, over time, should be able to perfect the system and smooth out any major shortcomings. Only so much can be done of course, but you should be able to make almost any system sound good in most rooms - it's how you use it.ellisdj said:
Which is why I always recommend getting the basics right first, particularly BEFORE EQ.
What would have been the point in buying the Susano, for more power? You wont need more power with those B&W speakers in that small room
You can change your current setup around for less than the Susano would cost and it will sound better than upgrading the amp - no question in my mind.
Changing the amp would have given you inital buyers excitement - followed by severe remorse that ultimately nothing has really changed - you suffer from this worse than anyone I have ever seen, even worse than me. You know this as well by how much stuff you return.
That Susano was only ever going 1 way - back after 48 hours. However once you set things up properly they will never ever go back to how they was before.
I have never seen or heard of anyone doing that
You can change your current setup around for less than the Susano would cost and it will sound better than upgrading the amp - no question in my mind.
Changing the amp would have given you inital buyers excitement - followed by severe remorse that ultimately nothing has really changed - you suffer from this worse than anyone I have ever seen, even worse than me. You know this as well by how much stuff you return.
That Susano was only ever going 1 way - back after 48 hours. However once you set things up properly they will never ever go back to how they was before.
I have never seen or heard of anyone doing that
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Which is why we rarely change our system in our AV demo room - it may change one a year, maybe two years. We use a system that works well together, and works well in the room. If anything doesn't sound good, even after tinkering, it comes out.ellisdj said:
This is where I think 99% of people will go wrong with Dirac and other eq setup systems
Dirac gives you a target frequency curve that you can adjust - same as a lot of other systems.
Most people will run the setup - taking no consideration for the pre results - look at the smoothed out post results and think things are wonderful.
To me that is a huge mistake.
Instead people should look at the Pre results - see how bad they are - then move the speakers, sub and listening position to try and achieve the best freq repsonse they can compared to the target curve from Dirac or Arc or whatever they are using before they run the correction system. That means there is a lot less work to do for the correction system and I am convicned will end in much better overall results. It means a lot more work for the user though and as I said a few posts ago - sound is one of them that requires work if you want it to be truly great - despite what you might be sold / told
Dirac gives you a target frequency curve that you can adjust - same as a lot of other systems.
Most people will run the setup - taking no consideration for the pre results - look at the smoothed out post results and think things are wonderful.
To me that is a huge mistake.
Instead people should look at the Pre results - see how bad they are - then move the speakers, sub and listening position to try and achieve the best freq repsonse they can compared to the target curve from Dirac or Arc or whatever they are using before they run the correction system. That means there is a lot less work to do for the correction system and I am convicned will end in much better overall results. It means a lot more work for the user though and as I said a few posts ago - sound is one of them that requires work if you want it to be truly great - despite what you might be sold / told
David@FrankHarvey said:
gel was originally asking about 804 D3s, and I still think the speakers he has now are more than adequate for his far-from-ideal current set-up.
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