Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Whilst I do advocate that only standmounts are needed for AV systems, it'd be hard for me to ignore the benefits of the dedicated mid driver of the 804 D3, especially when marrying up with any one of the two centres that use the same. If you're going this far, you may as well do things properly!
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Thats just a tad smaller than my room - I wouldn't dream of putting that sort of speaker system in here!gel said:
Ah thanks, what would you say regrading an upgrade then? Stick with what I got? Or something different? ThanksDavid@FrankHarvey said:
gel said:
Gel, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I can't stress enough how important it is to try an equivalent altenative to the B&Ws....especially if you are spending 10k - 15k, just on speakers without sub.
Since I'm familiar with the Kef Refs, I can talk about those with more authority, but the same logic applies to the equivalent in the B&W range.
If I was in your shoes (and was once), I would want to listen to the following system:
Kef Ref 1s (which sound more like Floorstanders) + Ref 2c + LS50 (rear) + Sub of choice (JL Audio Fathom 113 / B&W DB1 / Ref Sub 8b / Velodyne DD range)....this will set you back just less than 10k GBP (wihout sub). Your proposed system will be more like 14,250 (without sub). Nb. you can add a DB1 sub to my system and still have a saving of 1k.
Since music is not a priority, Arcam isn't a "must" buy, but it would still be "my" preference.
Please, please do not get tunnel vision if spending this kind of money and listen to alternatives....with systems at this level, they are so good, that it is very easy to get carried away by the first one you hear. There are fairly big differences between highend kit, just like with much cheaper systems, but the sums of money involved means you need to make sure that you make the correct decision.
It may well be that the B&W sound is the one for you, but you owe it to yourself to make sure (and the Refs are better *diablo* *wink* )
Cheers mate. Which amp? I don't think I like the idea of mix matching speaker ranges.CnoEvil said:
gel said:
I'm not David, but here are my thoughts:
- I think it's worth upgrading the AV amp....which makes a massive difference and isn't room dependant. My second choice of Amp would be Anthem, with its excellent EQ.
- I also think (and David will correct me if I'm wrong), that it's worth getting the smaller of the good centres.
- You could upgrade your sub, that is the correct size for your room and has a decent EQ system (like the Velodyne DD or JL Audio Fathom ranges).
- For my own taste, I would be happy with LS 50s all round with the Ref Centre (4,800 GBP without Sub)....again David might comment on this.
If going with B&W, I would use the good centre + 805s at the front, with CM6 at the rear (9,000 GBP without Sub)
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Cno makes some good suggestions in his previous post.gel said:
I can only relay what I would do personally or consider for my room, as I don't know really yours. Whilst mine is a tad larger, it is probably similar useable dimensions due to the amount of stuff in here.
There's no limit as to how far you can push sound quality, as Cno states, that isn't room dependent. The room will have a bearing on the end result, but quality still prevails. My system was improved (from circa £2k AV receivers) when I moved up to pre/powers, which was a £3k combo, and late last year to a £6k combo. Biggest improvement was up to the £6k combo, so all the recent, and ongoing, talk of high end being a waste of money and diminishing returns is nonsense - it's just a case of choosing the right product.
The speakers will be the important bit. I use five LS50s, and they're more than enough to fill this space at reasonable levels. Reasonable levels to me is about -20/-15dB on the volume control. This is a very comfortable volume level for almost any film, and only when looking for reference levels would I recommend needing larger speakers. But if you're after reference levels, chances are you have a dedicated room, so you would be looking at different speakers anyway.
With the quality of the front end, the LS50s do a great job. Relatively easy to implement into any room, they're excellent for short listening distances because of the UniQ arrangement. My listening distance to the centre speaker is 7 feet. I can't fit Reference 1s in here. Well, I could do, but they'd be taking up an awful lot of floor space, over twice what the LS50s are. Unfortunately, KEF have nothing between these two speakers for me. Since the launch of the PMC TwentyFive series, I have considered these as a future upgrade. Nice and lively, detailed, easy to drive, and the Twenty models are great with AV - open, effortless, big soundstage, and never overstretched - so the TwentyFives can only be better. Now I wouldn't normally recommend a floorstander for AV as its not usually needed, but I reckon I could fit the 23s in here, but that would depend on the bass performance. As long as they still sounded punchy, I'd go for them.
So whilst the likes of Reference and 800 ranges will still provide a boost in quality, I wouldn't go that far for a room this size. I think with the processor I have, the TwentyFive series is as far as I'd take things, unless some speaker range came out that was similar quality but much smaller. The only other speakers I was interested in was the smallest of the PMC TwoTwo range, which are about the size of LS50s. The only drawback with these is that they would take the excellent decided analogue signal coming from my processor and change it back to digital before converting back to analogue again - but other than that, a small, high quality, active speaker with integral EQ is a mouthwatering prospect - it's just a shame they won't also accept an analogue input. I'll still give them a go though, as they might bring other benefits despite this shortfall.
At a push, I could fit in B&W 805s or Monitor Audio Platinum PL100s with their smaller matching centre. The discontinued Reference 201/2 with matching centre would also be viable. But I'd find it hard to justify them in such a small room over the TwentyFive series.
With regards to subs, an SVS SB2000 is more than enough for this room, although I wouldn't dismiss dual SB2000s as I know what sort of difference dual subs can make. Only one is needed though, so if I was upgrading there, I'd be looking at the B&W DB1 (which is a great performer), and the current KEF Reference sub, which are both quite compact, all things considered. Go too big and you'll lose punch and impact, which are far more satisfying characteristics than outright depth, which many subs aim for.
And don't forget to plug the single wire cables into the HF terminals
Thanks David! I think the combo amp will be too big for my stand. I like the idea of all B&W speakers and an amp, any suggestions? The same series too.David@FrankHarvey said:Cno makes some good suggestions in his previous post.gel said:
I can only relay what I would do personally or consider for my room, as I don't know really yours. Whilst mine is a tad larger, it is probably similar useable dimensions due to the amount of stuff in here.
There's no limit as to how far you can push sound quality, as Cno states, that isn't room dependent. The room will have a bearing on the end result, but quality still prevails. My system was improved (from circa £2k AV receivers) when I moved up to pre/powers, which was a £3k combo, and late last year to a £6k combo. Biggest improvement was up to the £6k combo, so all the recent, and ongoing, talk of high end being a waste of money and diminishing returns is nonsense - it's just a case of choosing the right product.
The speakers will be the important bit. I use five LS50s, and they're more than enough to fill this space at reasonable levels. Reasonable levels to me is about -20/-15dB on the volume control. This is a very comfortable volume level for almost any film, and only when looking for reference levels would I recommend needing larger speakers. But if you're after reference levels, chances are you have a dedicated room, so you would be looking at different speakers anyway.
With the quality of the front end, the LS50s do a great job. Relatively easy to implement into any room, they're excellent for short listening distances because of the UniQ arrangement. My listening distance to the centre speaker is 7 feet. I can't fit Reference 1s in here. Well, I could do, but they'd be taking up an awful lot of floor space, over twice what the LS50s are. Unfortunately, KEF have nothing between these two speakers for me. Since the launch of the PMC TwentyFive series, I have considered these as a future upgrade. Nice and lively, detailed, easy to drive, and the Twenty models are great with AV - open, effortless, big soundstage, and never overstretched - so the TwentyFives can only be better. Now I wouldn't normally recommend a floorstander for AV as its not usually needed, but I reckon I could fit the 23s in here, but that would depend on the bass performance. As long as they still sounded punchy, I'd go for them.
So whilst the likes of Reference and 800 ranges will still provide a boost in quality, I wouldn't go that far for a room this size. I think with the processor I have, the TwentyFive series is as far as I'd take things, unless some speaker range came out that was similar quality but much smaller. The only other speakers I was interested in was the smallest of the PMC TwoTwo range, which are about the size of LS50s. The only drawback with these is that they would take the excellent decided analogue signal coming from my processor and change it back to digital before converting back to analogue again - but other than that, a small, high quality, active speaker with integral EQ is a mouthwatering prospect - it's just a shame they won't also accept an analogue input. I'll still give them a go though, as they might bring other benefits despite this shortfall.
At a push, I could fit in B&W 805s or Monitor Audio Platinum PL100s with their smaller matching centre. The discontinued Reference 201/2 with matching centre would also be viable. But I'd find it hard to justify them in such a small room over the TwentyFive series.
With regards to subs, an SVS SB2000 is more than enough for this room, although I wouldn't dismiss dual SB2000s as I know what sort of difference dual subs can make. Only one is needed though, so if I was upgrading there, I'd be looking at the B&W DB1 (which is a great performer), and the current KEF Reference sub, which are both quite compact, all things considered. Go too big and you'll lose punch and impact, which are far more satisfying characteristics than outright depth, which many subs aim for.
And don't forget to plug the single wire cables into the HF terminals
gel said:
David has confirmed my thoughts on amplification. My choice would be the Arcam 850, but you need to go to a specialist shop that can show you what different amounts of money can get you.
As for mixing speaker ranges, please try it and see what you think...especially for rear surrounds....as it frees up money where it really makes a big difference (Sub and Centre)
If you look at my suggestions, I kept the B&W option with all three front from the same range.
On the Kef option, I think the LS50s sound enough like the Reference range, that they would work well with the Ref centre.
Remember, at least 65% comes through the centre and Front L&R just need to be tonally similar enough to give consistancy across the front.....Surely it is worth a try, as LS50s cost 800GBP compared to the 4,500 of the 805s/Ref 1s). I bet it wouldn't ruin the experience. Don't think of the LS50s as a cheap speaker, but a reference speaker at a cheap price.
I can talk all I like, but it is only your ears that will say if I'm right....and why demoing with an open mind is imperative.
bigboss
Moderator
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with Cno here, especially for advice to gel. Besides egging him on to spend loads of money, I do not think Arcam will be any better than a Pioneer in a small room for movies. We're talking of a bedroom here, with a king size bed in the middle and furniture around. This is not a dedicated cinema room or living space. If gel needs to upgrade anything, it needs to be his room. The system he has currently is as good as it can get IMO.
bigboss
Moderator
Gel, you have the best bedroom based home cinema system than anyone else on the forum (closely followed by Son_of_SJ). I really don't think you need to change anything for now.
Going to demo would be hard too. Cheers BB. I think I will just keep with what I got then. I am really happy to be honest anyway.bigboss said:
bigboss
Moderator
bigboss said:
I'm actually trying to get Gel to think very carefully about what he is doing , get advice from a good specialist and spend no more than he needs to...and go demo, demo demo.
We can certainly agree to differ on the effect that really good amplification (with sophisticated EQ) can make on modest speakers, in a mid sized room.
Saying all that, your point about being in a bedroom and how the logistics will work, certainly has to be considered....which is where the advice of a decent specialist is crucial.
Edit. Sometimes these things have to be teased out, only to find that the answer is to "stick"....as seems to be the case now.
CnoEvil said:
Entirely seriously, I think 'advice from a good specialist' is exactly what gel needs, but that advice has nothing to do with hi-fi or home cinema.
bigboss
Moderator
CnoEvil said:
That's all fine Cno, but gel is unlikely to use the sophisticated EQ (DIRAC of Arcam). He will ask his dealer to connect the system up who will not perform room EQ.
bigboss said:
Maybe I'm lucky, but the 2 dealers I use wouldn't dream of "throwing in" an AV system and running....I'm also sure that David wouldn't, either.
bigboss
Moderator
Gel has already said he's happy with his current system. He doesn't know in which area he's looking for an improvement. He's not interested in 2 channel music. I can't see how he will benefit from suggestions to demo, when we all know that he won't demo.... he'll just buy, only to return it soon after.
bigboss said:
If you throw enough muck against a wall, some it may just stick.
At least Gel came on here for a discussion. If he gets an unfriendly response and isn't taken seriously, he'll just buy first and we'll here about it afterwards (if at all).
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