Dali k14f or arendal sub 1?

[nugget2014]

I have decided i am getting a sealed sub. No ported for me. I had a demo of the k14f which is close in driver size and amp power of the arendal and i was blown away by it. I also tried the monitor audio silver w12 which was terrible compared to the dali.

Also im sure its because of that paticular room and how close the sub was but i felt some serious impact.

Anyone compared or heard both these subs? Will be a difficult decision.

 

[nugget2014]

i was told by the manager at richer sounds the dali was sealed, and it did sound like it although after looking at the sub on dali's website it shows it has a port and says so too. disappointed! cant believe someone who works at richer sounds gives wrong advice nevermind the manager..think i will go for the sub 1 now, as i want a sealed subwoofer.

still have the question asking myself why did the dali sound so much better than the MA silver w12 sub and provide so much more impact that you can feel also?

just to make sure, will the sealed variety work alright in my room of 12ft long by 10ft wide? i plan to have 2 subs, i will use the ikon sub mixed with the sub 1 until i can afford a second sub 1.

 

[Frank Harvey]

But you were blown away by the Dali...

Don't dismiss the SVS SB2000.

 

[ellisdj]

I am guessing this would be around the price of the dali.

Will have far more output than any of the other subs mentioned before, this is in proper sub territory and be a beast in a small room.

Check out the output compared to a SVS SB13 Ultra - its the equivalent or double the SB2000

 

[Frank Harvey]

Personally, I wouldn't recommend larger subs in smaller rooms though, not unless the objective was lots of rumbling bass that lacks punch. There will be a perfect size driver and accompanying power for any room - overstep the mark and you sacrifice punch. When I had a KK DXD12012 in my room, I'd have been better of with dual 808s.

 

[ellisdj]

Bearing in mind if you take on a beast of a sub you will still need to setup it up properly and very likely need comprehensive bass management for room induced problems that will be inevitable

Funny video about the subs here

Bearing in mind this guy doesnt seem really to know what he is on about but its still a funny watch

 

[ellisdj]

Personally, I wouldn't recommend larger subs in smaller rooms though, not unless the objective was lots of rumbling bass that lacks punch. There will be a perfect size driver and accompanying power for any room - overstep the mark and you sacrifice punch. When I had a KK DXD12012 in my room, I'd have been better of with dual 808s.

I am sorry David that is wrong - punch is a result of the freq response and power output curve.

You will get far more punch from a larger sub than a smaller sub - the reason smaller subs may seem to punch harder is because they do not go low in the bass so the power output curve is different to subs that can go low.

Ask Tom V from Power Sound audio about this - bearing in mind Tom V is the V from S"V"S.

If your spending £900 on a sub you might as well get the best one you can.

Normally a sub of the SB13 Ultra quality would cost more but if you can get one for the same money as a lesser sub it makes sense.

There is a guy running a PSA3000i dual 18" and he lives in a flat I think. He loves his

People say the SB13 Ultras dont kick - I can (not at the minute) proove they kick harder than any other sub I have heard of equivalent price - because of how they are setup here

 

[ellisdj]

Also there is a chap I know personally on AVF that is selling his KK DXD1202 for £1k but you would have to collect it from Essex.

Thats another big sub for the money, I havent heard that model I have heard the MK equivalents and I personally prefer the SVS, however I have not had my hands on the KK or MK subs to see what I can get out of them

 

[ellisdj]

Thats the S1500 power output curve - turned right up it can put out over 110db at 50hz thats going to kick hard and 105db at 30hz so with room gain loads of rumbling on your chair.

The problem with big subs is with the user setting it up and possibly room acoustics - not the sub itself.

 

[ellisdj]

The issue for Nugget might be size
Dimensions (D x W x H): 18” x 17” x 17.25” includes grill[/list]

 

[Frank Harvey]

Personally, I wouldn't recommend larger subs in smaller rooms though, not unless the objective was lots of rumbling bass that lacks punch. There will be a perfect size driver and accompanying power for any room - overstep the mark and you sacrifice punch. When I had a KK DXD12012 in my room, I'd have been better of with dual 808s.

I am sorry David that is wrong - punch is a result of the freq response and power output curve.

You will get far more punch from a larger sub than a smaller sub - the reason smaller subs may seem to punch harder is because they do not go low in the bass so the power output curve is different to subs that can go low.

Ask Tom V from Power Sound audio about this - bearing in mind Tom V is the V from S"V"S.

If your spending £900 on a sub you might as well get the best one you can.

Normally a sub of the SB13 Ultra quality would cost more but if you can get one for the same money as a lesser sub it makes sense.

There is a guy running a PSA3000i dual 18" and he lives in a flat I think. He loves his

People say the SB13 Ultras dont kick - I can (not at the minute) proove they kick harder than any other sub I have heard of equivalent price - because of how they are setup here

Rather than say "you're wrong", I'm going to say I disagree. The design of a sub can/does have an effect on how much punch a sub can have, but it is also down to the room it is in. I know room EQ can tame things, but a sub that's just too large for the room can just have too much bass - bear in mind the majority of people aren't using EQ systems to the level of PBK/ARC/DIRAC etc, and many AV receivers don't EQ subs at all! For me, basics should be tamed first before unleashing EQ on the signal. A sub more suitable for a room should need less EQing, and less a signal is messed with, the better.

Ken's subs never lack punch, but I have heard that aspect affected by the room they're in (I've heard them in many different rooms). I can only speak from my own personal experiences too.

 

[ellisdj]

Different subs will perform the same in the same spot in the room for the most part.

The main difference you will have is some subs will have more output in a range to another and have lower distortion depending on the design and quality, especially when played louder.

The bigger driver and larger amplifier will allow deeper bass to be achieved with less internal eq boost added and have more headroom at louder volumes so lower distortion through the range.

Too much bass is caused by room modal issues or poor acoustics - same thing

Most people dont do anything about acoustics so turn to bass management - which even with good acoustics is inevitable you will need it

Providing the freq response of the sub is correct and the spl is set right there will be no issue with a big sub in a small room.

When you turn it up you will notice it though as it will scale with the volume no problem, not be rolling off or getting increased distortion as its working harder to scale its output with the sound.

Its possible to get away with lesser subs in a smaller room if the ouput required stays within their compression curve and the sub performs to how you want it in terms of freq repsons and extension but doesnt mean bigger ones wont work.

 

[nugget2014]

Its a shame i only seen one svs pb13 ultra second hand for £1000 on the movie rooms. If there was a sb13 ultra for around £1000 anywhere i would snap it up. Only trouble is im sceptical of buying off people on classifie sites. With shops its different as you get some warranty at least

 

[ellisdj]

I will say this again Power Sound Audio is owned by the V from SVS.

Based on the numbers and spec the S1500 performs equal / slightly better than a SB 13 Ultra - take from that what you will,

The SVS is slightly smaller with a nicer gloss black finish - the Power Sound is cheaper

 

[nugget2014]

I will say this again Power Sound Audio is owned by the V from SVS.

Based on the numbers and spec the S1500 performs equal / slightly better than a SB 13 Ultra - take from that what you will,

 

The SVS is slightly smaller with a nicer gloss black finish - the Power Sound is cheaper

Bought the sub 1 in gloss black. Sure i will be very happy and will be a nice upgrade.

 

[ellisdj]

Let us know how you get on with it

EDIT - EQ1 - if you want any low end out if it sitting in the middle of the room

 

[nugget2014]

Let us know how you get on with it 

EDIT - EQ1 - if you want any low end out if it sitting in the middle of the room 

Yeah. Was gonna try eq1 for movies and eq2 for music see how much difference there is for music on the settings.

On the graph there doesnt seem to be much difference though. Does it just sound better or something?

 

[ellisdj]

Nugget there is a huge difference between EQ1 and 2. Quick education for you

EQ2 is for a situation where there is too much room gain and you want to tail off the response of the sub to stop booming. This is a moot point if you have correct bass management.

Even with EQ1 the reponse is falling from 50hz to -3 to -5db at 30hz - bearing in mind you are in the middle of the room and away from the rear boundary - so the boundary gain you will get will be reduced compared to sitting on the back wall.

I personally think at 30hz you need +6db of bass output comapred to 80hz - so you need to bass to increase in volume considerably the deeper it goes. In certain spots in the room , room gain will help this.

In the middle you dont really get any bass help - so it will be interesting to see what results you get from the Sub1 comapred to your exisitng sub - shame you cant use REW.

That is also why I was suggesting the Power Sound Audio because with the extra power it holds its output to 30hz, it doesnt tail off then with some room gain it will increase nicely.

However with your room being smaller you might be alright with the Sub1 - if not you can double up and get another one to help out.

Also you should set the subs phase to halfway 90degrees (sorry I got the number worng initially) - because you have rear ported speakers. This is to get them in phase with your speakers and stop cancellation.

If you dont have your current sub set like this I would suggest doing so and running Auddessey again and see if you get better bass - nothing to lose now as its going anyway.

Auddessey might set this for you, but I doubt it will have variable phase - it will likely have positive or negative only and you need in the middle

You can thank me for these tips as I am helping you on your way.

 

[nugget2014]

Nugget there is a huge difference between EQ1 and 2.  Quick education for you

EQ2 is for a situation where there is too much room gain and you want to tail off the response of the sub to stop booming.  This is a moot point if you have correct bass management.

Even with EQ1 the reponse is falling from 50hz to -3 to -5db at 30hz - bearing in mind you are in the middle of the room and away from the rear boundary - so the boundary gain you will get will be reduced compared to sitting on the back wall.

I personally think at 30hz you need +6db of bass output comapred to 80hz - so you need to bass to increase in volume considerably the deeper it goes.  In certain spots in the room , room gain will help this.

In the middle you dont really get any bass help - so it will be interesting to see what results you get from the Sub1 comapred to your exisitng sub - shame you cant use REW.

That is also why I was suggesting the Power Sound Audio because with the extra power it holds its output to 30hz, it doesnt tail off then with some room gain it will increase nicely.

However with your room being smaller you might be alright with the Sub1 - if not you can double up and get another one to help out.

Also you should set the subs phase to halfway 90degrees (sorry I got the number worng initially) - because you have rear ported speakers.  This is to get them in phase with your speakers and stop cancellation.

If you dont have your current sub set like this I would suggest doing so and running Auddessey again and see if you get better bass - nothing to lose now as its going anyway.

Auddessey might set this for you, but I doubt it will have variable phase - it will likely have positive or negative only and you need in the middle 

You can thank me for these tips as I am helping you on your way.

 

Thanks!

What phase should my dali sub be when using both subs? 0 or 180 there is only a switch not adjustable unlike the sub 1

I will use my dali still in the setup alongside sub 1 until i can afford another sub 1 in maybe a year. It shouldnt sound worse than just using my sub 1 should it? If i adjust them both

My next purchase however is going to be upfiring kef atmos speakers.

The install should help my surround sound as placement be a lot better. And with better speakers should be improved quite a bit

 

[ellisdj]

Previously I would have said use both subs - however reading the Power Sound Sub thread Tom V suggested to someone to not use their lesser sub with one of his so I am not sure now.

Maybe start with just the Sub 1 and see how that is, otherwise how will you know how good it is - then try both and see what happens - you will get more ouput which is def better - however if one is audible or bottoms out etc you will hear it and then I suppose it will ruin the illusion so play it by ear.

I am not sure on the 0 or 180 - it depends on how much cancellation with the mains which you can only tell by measuring - it will likely cancel out in a different region lower or higher in the freq reponse.

This is where sometime I think manufacturers make mistakes - for example the Kef Ref are rear ported so my subs will remain on 90 degress - I will check this with REW.

But the Centre speaker is sealed - now I am not sure if that will integrate exactly with the subs or not - I am hoping as its sealed it doesnt affect the phase like front or rear ported speakers but again I wont know until I measure and see - otherwise all I have available is positive or negative phase in the processor so it might a compromise needed. I wont be happy if that is the case.

 

[nugget2014]

Previously I would have said use both subs - however reading the Power Sound Sub thread Tom V suggested to someone to not use their lesser sub with one of his so I am not sure now.

Maybe start with just the Sub 1 and see how that is, otherwise how will you know how good it is - then try both and see what happens - you will get more ouput which is def better - however if one is audible or bottoms out etc you will hear it and then I suppose it will ruin the illusion so play it by ear.

I am not sure on the 0 or 180 - it depends on how much cancellation with the mains which you can only tell by measuring - it will likely cancel out in a different region lower or higher in the freq reponse.

This is where sometime I think manufacturers make mistakes - for example the Kef Ref are rear ported so my subs will remain on 90 degress - I will check this with REW.

But the Centre speaker is sealed - now I am not sure if that will integrate exactly with the subs or not - I am hoping as its sealed it doesnt affect the phase like front or rear ported speakers but again I wont know until I measure and see - otherwise all I have available is positive or negative phase in the processor so it might a compromise needed.  I wont be happy if that is the case.

I'll do some listening without then use both subs see if sounds odd or if its fine. Might still be worthwhile to use both simply because of the room null i am in. Might help give better output there if use two? I would of thought some difference?

 

[ellisdj]

Maybe maybe not - I have 2 it doesnt cancel out my nulls dude so dont expect a miracle with something like that.

The bass will be spread more evenly around the room - thats probably the best bit and the extra headroom where its needed.