DACless streamer

[ErwinC]

Ok well can anyone tell me why then a £30 chromecast audio sounds rubbish against my £1300 cyrus stream x signature, both digital transports into my cyrus dac xp signature.

Cyrus DAC's are bad in handling source jitter.

 

[SemiChronic]

The only thing I can think of which might make a difference would be the power supply.

And I couldnt even begin to explain why, without being torn to shreds!

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

No not really as there is isn't any such papers in hi fi. It's all amateur tests, with no hypothesis and proper controls and repeatability and scientific methodology. Alas no science interest to do so.

The cca has optical out and Cyrus coaxial out. No idea what software the chromecast uses but I suppose that's another thing too isn't it, software and firmware having impacts on sq. when you say unfettered but perfect what do you mean? There are no settings other than to set high dynamic range on the cca. How would something be unfettered. I suppose isn't that the difference between a good one and a poor one. Does power supply and interference affect the quality of the transfer and bit perfect signal. I suspect it does. but this is stuff people on forums don't really know, you get so many different opinions and stuff is so specific to the circuits that they can not know. It's like someone trying to work out why a cell secretes a chemical without having the cell under a microscope.

I'm asking some advice as to why the two sound so different, from someone I know.

 

[cheeseboy]

No not really as there is isn't any such papers in hi fi. It's all amateur tests, with no hypothesis and proper controls and repeatability and scientific methodology. Alas no science interest to do so.

alas, the only papers I've ever seen regarding hifi and things are from the likes of aes etc and most of those back up the current theories that a lot of percieved differences in hifi come from sighted and expectation biases. That doesn't meant that the person experiencing it doesn't hear a difference, just that the difference is a not a real world one. In the same way that people in the pain killer test swore blind that the more expensive pain killers worked better than the cheaper ones, when they were in fact identical. https://today.duke.edu/2008/03/placeboprice.html

The cca has optical out and Cyrus coaxial out.

ok, so far starters there are different connections in to your dac. The implementation of the connections, ie how well the device interacts with say a co-ax output to a usb for example can change things. So there's one.

No idea what software the chromecast uses but I suppose that's another thing too isn't it, software and firmware having impacts on sq.

Yes, it's very possible that the chromecast uses a player with say a built in eq setting for example that would make it sound different. I'm not saying that is the reason, but it's a possible one.

when you say unfettered but perfect what do you mean? There are no settings other than to set high dynamic range on the cca. How would something be unfettered. I suppose isn't that the difference between a good one and a poor one.

Idealy, when you are working with digital audio, you want the playback software to send the singal to the dac with out anything added for starters. So no eq, dsp etc. This is what some people refer to as a bit perfect signal. The thoery is that if you say take two devices that claim to output bit perfect, then they should sound the same. If they don't, then we have to look at why. There's plenty of reasons why they could sound different without getting all esoteric.

Does power supply and interference affect the quality of the transfer and bit perfect signal.

It should not. If you think there is intereference from the power supply, connect the devices up, turn them on then turn the volume up loud on your amp. Do you hear anything? If it's quiet then your psu is fine. Digital data is very very resiliant and you can transfer data across all sorts of mediums and still get the exact same result. Anybody here remember dial up internet? that's right, data, converted to audio, sent across miles of shitty copper cable buried in the ground, yet when it gets the other side it's fine. If it's not, it gets retransmitted until it does get the correct data. Sure the power supply may have an influence of sorts under the analogue amplification stage etc, but until the data hits the dac, it's pretty irrelevent. have a look at archimego's blog. He tries to run as many tests as he can to work these things out http://www.archimago.blogspot.com

but this is stuff people on forums don't really know, you get so many different opinions and stuff is so specific to the circuits that they can not know.

the issue that some people do know, and when they try to tell somebody the science etc behind them, the same old audipohile tropes get brought out. We seem to be hitting an age where wilful igornace is becoming common place, and ignorance is not something that should be championed.

 

[Gazzip]

I agree that £1700 is quite punchy when one considers the original Moon Mind streamer sold for less than half of that, but if you think this is just a Raspberry-Pi or a simple PC in a fancy aluminium suit then you are talking complete balls. Yes you can build a PC music server which does all of this and more, but it will cost you approaching that amount if you want to get close to the spec of the Moon Mind.

I'd respectfully disagree. I think you could build the same/better for a lot less.

Edit - Not saying one should, just that one can btw. I've no problem with people charging loads of money, I mean it's probably a little tin pot company, they have pay wages, recoup the money for research, building/milling/machining costs as the case looks bespoke so I understand the cost. However, doesn't mean it's acutally any better than other things on the market, or because it's a high price that it somehow contains some kind of magic that cheaper options don't. It's generally down to economies of scale.

Well having just built one in the last two weeks I would respectfully disagree. *blum3*

The cost goes exponential when you go down the passively cooled processor route. Throw in a passive cooled linear ATX PSU and SSD on which to run the OS and the price of components continues to go North. THEN have a look for a soundcard with AES-EBU out, and brace yourself because your eyes will water...

That is what this Moon product is (albeit that the OS is onboard as opposed to SSD). It is not a simple home buit PC, which would be much cheaper as you rightly point out.

 

[cheeseboy]

Well having just built one in the last two weeks I would respectfully disagree. *blum3*

The cost goes exponential when you go down the passively cooled processor route. Throw in a passive cooled linear ATX PSU and SSD on which to run the OS and the price of components continues to go North. THEN have a look for a soundcard with AES-EBU out, and brace yourself because your eyes will water...

not at all, i build pc's for studios. Chances are some of the ones I've build would make your eyes water....said the actress to the bishop etc.

Anyways, as a quick one, here we go:

nice sound card with aes out https://www.gak.co.uk/en/motu-8d-aes3-and-s-pdif-usb-audio-interface/906224 - 599 sheets

and iirc this is fanless - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-Brix-GB-BXBT-1900-Ultra-Compact/dp/B00Y0LYUG0/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1505392200&sr=8-8&keywords=j1900+fanless - 189 sheets.

This is just as an example to prove it can be done is all.

That is what this Moon product is (albeit that the OS is onboard as opposed to SSD). It is not a simple home buit PC, which would be much cheaper as you rightly point out.

i agree, i did edit my post but because this forum is so utterly shite, it didn't save it. I did say that I understand the cost as they are tin pot small company who will have massive overheads for research, design, tooling etc and they need to make it back.

 

[Gazzip]

Well having just built one in the last two weeks I would respectfully disagree. *blum3*

The cost goes exponential when you go down the passively cooled processor route. Throw in a passive cooled linear ATX PSU and SSD on which to run the OS and the price of components continues to go North. THEN have a look for a soundcard with AES-EBU out, and brace yourself because your eyes will water...

not at all, i build pc's for studios. Chances are some of the ones I've build would make your eyes water....said the actress to the bishop etc.

Anyways, as a quick one, here we go:

nice sound card with aes out https://www.gak.co.uk/en/motu-8d-aes3-and-s-pdif-usb-audio-interface/906224 - 599 sheets

and iirc this is fanless - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-Brix-GB-BXBT-1900-Ultra-Compact/dp/B00... - 189 sheets.

This is just as an example to prove it can be done is all.

That is what this Moon product is (albeit that the OS is onboard as opposed to SSD). It is not a simple home buit PC, which would be much cheaper as you rightly point out.

i agree, i did edit my post but because this forum is so utterly shite, it didn't save it. I did say that I understand the cost as they are tin pot small company who will have massive overheads for research, design, tooling etc and they need to make it back.

Fair play, that is a cheap SSD PC, but add the soundcard on and we are already up to £800 excluding that all important linear PSU and an OS. Not exactly cheap as chips in comparison with the Moon MiND when you add it all together, but your point is well made.

 

[cheeseboy]

Fair play, that is a cheap SSD PC, but add the soundcard on and we are already up to £800 excluding that all important linear PSU and an OS. Not exactly cheap as chips in comparison with the Moon MiND when you add it all together, but your point is well made.

I'd dispute the linear psu, if it's just for the pc epecially. It's not needed. It won't affect the data coming out of the pc at all, after all, it's just data. So unless it's injecting noise, it's not going affect the output. This linear psu thing seems to be another one of the hifi bandwagons that people have picked up on because it's a way to spend more money. Even companies like benchmark agree https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

Os, I'd lean towards volumio or rune or something so no cost. Yes, not cheap as chips, but as I said, half the price for the same. Like I say, it was just an example that it can be done. I'm not trying to start a virtual rumble or anything, I just want to give an alternative.

But, I must reapeat, I wouldn't expect people to do this at all and I totally understand the cost and conveience of an all in one device etc.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Did we ever come to a conclusion regards digital out output level?

Was mentioned in another thread as to why 2 different transports sound different using same dac?

 

[Andrewjvt]

On a tight budget we all look at things that may not make a difference to sound quality etc but let's face it if you have the choice we all will have the fancy parts etc.

For example: my logic tells me there should be no difference to sound quality using a cheap laptop or a high end streamer digital out to the same dac. But if I have a choice I'd rather have the posh streamer delivery into my dac because it will make me feel better even though I believe the science why it shouldn't.

I'd love to conduct some blind tests into my dac using laptop v posh streamer.

It's a personal choice the same as why I use XLR instead of RCA
It makes me feel better

Some people prefer optical
I prefer coaxial, if I have choice
My dac manual says should be no difference

 

[Gazzip]

Fair play, that is a cheap SSD PC, but add the soundcard on and we are already up to £800 excluding that all important linear PSU and an OS. Not exactly cheap as chips in comparison with the Moon MiND when you add it all together, but your point is well made.

I'd dispute the linear psu, if it's just for the pc epecially. It's not needed. It won't affect the data coming out of the pc at all, after all, it's just data. So unless it's injecting noise, it's not going affect the output. This linear psu thing seems to be another one of the hifi bandwagons that people have picked up on because it's a way to spend more money. Even companies like benchmark agree https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

Os, I'd lean towards volumio or rune or something so no cost. Yes, not cheap as chips, but as I said, half the price for the same. Like I say, it was just an example that it can be done. I'm not trying to start a virtual rumble or anything, I just want to give an alternative.

But, I must reapeat, I wouldn't expect people to do this at all and I totally understand the cost and conveience of an all in one device etc.

"...A well-designed switching power supply can be much quieter than a linear supply...". Benchmark are probably right, and judging by their other products their well-designed SMPSU is probalby great. However, the usual PC offerings are somewhat agricultural to say the least.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Fair play, that is a cheap SSD PC, but add the soundcard on and we are already up to £800 excluding that all important linear PSU and an OS. Not exactly cheap as chips in comparison with the Moon MiND when you add it all together, but your point is well made.

I'd dispute the linear psu, if it's just for the pc epecially.  It's not needed.  It won't affect the data coming out of the pc at all, after all, it's just data.  So unless it's injecting noise, it's not going affect the output.  This linear psu thing seems to be another one of the hifi bandwagons that people have picked up on because it's a way to spend more money.  Even companies like benchmark agree https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

Os, I'd lean towards volumio or rune or something so no cost.  Yes, not cheap as chips, but as I said, half the price for the same.  Like I say, it was just an example that it can be done.  I'm not trying to start a virtual rumble or anything, I just want to give an alternative.

But, I must reapeat, I wouldn't expect people to do this at all and I totally understand the cost and conveience of an all in one device etc.

"...A well-designed switching power supply can be much quieter than a linear supply...". Benchmark are probably right, and judging by their other products their well-designed SMPSU is probalby great. However, the usual PC offerings are somewhat agricultural to say the least.

Is your DIY streamer finished already and working?

I'd be really interested in a comparison between that and the zenith.

Also if there is a difference in volume level between the 2 into same dac same connections

Could you also post or send some pictures?

 

[cheeseboy]

On a tight budget we all look at things that may not make a difference to sound quality etc but let's face it if you have the choice we all will have the fancy parts etc.

For example: my logic tells me there should be no difference to sound quality using a cheap laptop or a high end streamer digital out to the same dac. But if I have a choice I'd rather have the posh streamer delivery into my dac because it will make me feel better even though I believe the science why it shouldn't.

that's totally fair enough. I'd agree completely. *biggrin*

 

[cheeseboy]

"...A well-designed switching power supply can be much quieter than a linear supply...". Benchmark are probably right, and judging by their other products their well-designed SMPSU is probalby great. However, the usual PC offerings are somewhat agricultural to say the least.

yep totally agree. Some of the cheap power supplies they put in computers are horrible, and that's before you've even considered it for music playback. If the psu is crap it will have a hard time getting the correct regulated power to wihchever part of the computer needs it. Especially if we are talking about graphics cards (which we're not, but it's just an example). A crap psu can manifest in odd ways too, like random crashing (if the voltage dips) and things like that. I think the thing here is just making sure you have a decent psu, doesn't matter if it's linear or not.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

No not really as there is isn't any such papers in hi fi. It's all amateur tests, with no hypothesis and proper controls and repeatability and scientific methodology. Alas no science interest to do so.

alas, the only papers I've ever seen regarding hifi and things are from the likes of aes etc and most of those back up the current theories that a lot of percieved differences in hifi come from sighted and expectation biases. That doesn't meant that the person experiencing it doesn't hear a difference, just that the difference is a not a real world one. In the same way that people in the pain killer test swore blind that the more expensive pain killers worked better than the cheaper ones, when they were in fact identical. https://today.duke.edu/2008/03/placeboprice.html

The cca has optical out and Cyrus coaxial out.

ok, so far starters there are different connections in to your dac. The implementation of the connections, ie how well the device interacts with say a co-ax output to a usb for example can change things. So there's one.

No idea what software the chromecast uses but I suppose that's another thing too isn't it, software and firmware having impacts on sq.

Yes, it's very possible that the chromecast uses a player with say a built in eq setting for example that would make it sound different. I'm not saying that is the reason, but it's a possible one.

when you say unfettered but perfect what do you mean? There are no settings other than to set high dynamic range on the cca. How would something be unfettered. I suppose isn't that the difference between a good one and a poor one.

Idealy, when you are working with digital audio, you want the playback software to send the singal to the dac with out anything added for starters. So no eq, dsp etc. This is what some people refer to as a bit perfect signal. The thoery is that if you say take two devices that claim to output bit perfect, then they should sound the same. If they don't, then we have to look at why. There's plenty of reasons why they could sound different without getting all esoteric.

Does power supply and interference affect the quality of the transfer and bit perfect signal.

It should not. If you think there is intereference from the power supply, connect the devices up, turn them on then turn the volume up loud on your amp. Do you hear anything? If it's quiet then your psu is fine. Digital data is very very resiliant and you can transfer data across all sorts of mediums and still get the exact same result. Anybody here remember dial up internet? that's right, data, converted to audio, sent across miles of shitty copper cable buried in the ground, yet when it gets the other side it's fine. If it's not, it gets retransmitted until it does get the correct data. Sure the power supply may have an influence of sorts under the analogue amplification stage etc, but until the data hits the dac, it's pretty irrelevent. have a look at archimego's blog. He tries to run as many tests as he can to work these things out http://www.archimago.blogspot.com

but this is stuff people on forums don't really know, you get so many different opinions and stuff is so specific to the circuits that they can not know.

the issue that some people do know, and when they try to tell somebody the science etc behind them, the same old audipohile tropes get brought out. We seem to be hitting an age where wilful igornace is becoming common place, and ignorance is not something that should be championed.

but I don't think you get into what these 'esoteric reasons' are for pricier dedicated streamers. You may well be into your stuff with computers, but hi fi design is quite another matter. It may well be that the costs of the components are similar, you do pay for brands I agree, but what you are paying for in these streamers is there absolute need to be uncompromising in the pursuit of best sound quality. A chromecast audio isn't designed to do that, neither is a sonos connect etc. When you have a revealing system you are after best possible to tie in with the quality of the system.

It depends on things like ability to deal with the jitter, electrical interfearance can have an effect. The noise in the power supply too. Isn't that why they use low noise toroidal transformers instead of noisier switching mode ones in the best streamer transports, like with CD players and amps etc. Check out the site called mono audio, article 'computer audio misconceptions'. Seems to explain a lot of it well.

cyrus stated the following on the matter and they told me ; "A digital signal is indeed a 1 and a 0, but that's not the whole story. The timing and order of the data arriving (jitter) and the other things transmitted along with the signal (noise) are the two main drivers of differences. Ultimately, your ears will prove the difference.

http://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/computer-audio-misconceptions/

 

[davedotco]

On a tight budget we all look at things that may not make a difference to sound quality etc but let's face it if you have the choice we all will have the fancy parts etc.

For example: my logic tells me there should be no difference to sound quality using a cheap laptop or a high end streamer digital out to the same dac. But if I have a choice I'd rather have the posh streamer delivery into my dac because it will make me feel better even though I believe the science why it shouldn't.

that's totally fair enough. I'd agree completely. *biggrin*

Sometimes the sense of 'wellbeing' that surrounds you when you have bought the product you really wanted is immense. In the case of hi-fi equipment, you simply relax and enjoy the music without fretting whether the cheaper unit you bought instead is actually good enough.

This is all part of working out how you, as an individual, react to the system you are using, highly subjective, but important.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

What about nas drives? Are they just sitting holding a bunch of ones and zeros......or can the sound they send on to a streamer be influenced in any way?...eg; psu,software ....This is not a statement or anything just a general curiosity on my part.

 

[davidf]

What about nas drives? Are they just sitting holding a bunch of ones and zeros......or can the sound they send on to a streamer be influenced in any way?...eg; psu,software ....This is not a statement or anything just a general curiosity on my part.

I think sitting down and comparing an Innuos Zen Mini to a ZENith SE would put that one to bed. Through a suitable system, of course.

 

[cheeseboy]

but I don't think you get into what these 'esoteric reasons' are for pricier dedicated streamers. You may well be into your stuff with computers, but hi fi design is quite another matter. It may well be that the costs of the components are similar, you do pay for brands I agree, but what you are paying for in these streamers is there absolute need to be uncompromising in the pursuit of best sound quality.

please remember this is talking about a dacless streamer. A dacless streamer is just a computer. The hifi world can call it whatever it wants, but inside, it *is* a computer. This unfortunately is not a disputable thing.

A chromecast audio isn't designed to do that, neither is a sonos connect etc. When you have a revealing system you are after best possible to tie in with the quality of the system.

Ahhh, here we go, hifi lingo 101, revealing system. Again, please remember we are talking about a dacless streamer. Just because it's going to get plugged in to a dac doesn't change that it's still a computer and still falls under all the rules that a computer has to adhere to.

It depends on things like ability to deal with the jitter, electrical interfearance can have an effect. The noise in the power supply too. Isn't that why they use low noise toroidal transformers instead of noisier switching mode ones in the best streamer transports, like with CD players and amps etc. Check out the site called mono audio, article 'computer audio misconceptions'. Seems to explain a lot of it well.

That website, I'm afraid to say is pretty misinformed and generally wrong. for one they don't reference anything, it's all just an opinion. Plus he's selling stuff which should be a big warning about how biased what he is saying is. Have a look here for a more balanced approach that also cites references and tests to back up what they say http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/index.html​

cyrus stated the following on the matter and they told me ; "A digital signal is indeed a 1 and a 0, but that's not the whole story. The timing or exmaple and order of the data arriving (jitter) and the other things transmitted along with the signal (noise) are the two main drivers of differences. Ultimately, your ears will prove the difference.

ok, fair enough to the noise. We can tell if the power supply is injecting noise becasue we can hear it. If you can't hear it, it's fine. Also this constant harping on about a jitter. It's 2017, jitter really isn't an issue anymore unless you are using really really old out of date equipment. Hifi people like to use as a catch all gremlin to justify all sorts of things. Please remember that in a studio, a computer will be recording and playing back however many (8, 16, 24 etc) tracks with effects. that's 24 seperate instances of a wav file, plus effects. If things like jitter were such an issue, you would hear it on recordings etc. So to tell me that a computer that only has to pass data from a network source to a dac will have issues is pretty absurd quite frankly.

 

[davedotco]

What about nas drives? Are they just sitting holding a bunch of ones and zeros......or can the sound they send on to a streamer be influenced in any way?...eg; psu,software ....This is not a statement or anything just a general curiosity on my part.

The transfer of data (music) from a NAS drive to a streamer is over a computer network, the data is tranferred using appropriate network protocols, including doing a 'check-sum', that ensure that the data transfer is 100% accurate.

This is entirely different from transfering over the SPDIF links that are commonly used in hi-fi, these can sound different, impedance mismatch, jitter, noise etc have to be dealt with but there is no way of checking the accuracy of the transfer. A good modern dac should minimise these differences to a point that they are inconsequential, if not totally inaudible.

 

[davidf]

Sometimes the sense of 'wellbeing' that surrounds you when you have bought the product you really wanted is immense. In the case of hi-fi equipment, you simply relax and enjoy the music without fretting whether the cheaper unit you bought instead is actually good enough.

Unless of course, you are of the viewpoint that virtually nothing makes a difference, in which case, you sit there with your Chromecast feeding your active speakers safe in your own oblivious knowledge that what you're hearing is as good as it gets.

That's not aimed at anyone, just an example, as there are a number of people like this - those that feels all DACs sound the same, all amplifiers sound the same, all streamers sound the same etc etc.

 

[cheeseboy]

What about nas drives? Are they just sitting holding a bunch of ones and zeros......or can the sound they send on to a streamer be influenced in any way?...eg; psu,software ....This is not a statement or anything just a general curiosity on my part.

only if you are running transcoding or something on the nas, otherwise, no, it's just data. If this were true then in theory every time you listened to the same track on spoitify for example, it would sound different as the data comes through different bits of kit to get to you.

 

[cheeseboy]

Unless of course, you are of the viewpoint that virtually nothing makes a difference, in which case, you sit there with your Chromecast feeding your active speakers safe in your own oblivious knowledge that what you're hearing is as good as it gets.

That's not aimed at anyone, just an example, as there are a number of people like this - those that feels all DACs sound the same, all amplifiers sound the same, all streamers sound the same etc etc.

but if you are happy with that, what's the problem? 🙂

 

[cheeseboy]

but what you are paying for in these streamers is there absolute need to be uncompromising in the pursuit of best sound quality.

I wanted to address this point separately as it comes up a lot. The issue is, what are you referencing this "best sound quality" against. How are you benchmarking it? Unless you have a specific end point that you are trying to achieve, with some form of benchmark to measure it against, it's just pissing in the wind really as you don't know what you are trying to gain.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I would always(out of paranoia) have a wired connection but in theory a wireless connection cuts out all the possible problems linked with noise from components