DAC comparison

[SeattleChris]

Might be my last post as my midlife crisis system upgrade fiasco must end now. Not sure how significant this one is but thought I'd report my findings.

For streaming Amazon HD, three years ago I first moved from a Soundblaster Xfi Titanium PC sound card to a Schiit Modi DAC and heard a general improvement. Six months later I upgraded to a Schiit Bifrost 2 and heard more improvement in detail, soundstage size & bass heft. This last summer I got a second one for my headphone amp (in a different room), but this one is the newer Bifrost 2/64 which has different chips. Finally tested them against each other in my main system, going back & forth on maybe a dozen songs.

In every case I heard what was expected from reviews: the new Bifrost 2/64 sounds clearer & more detailed and the old Bifrost 2 sounds a little "thick" with midrange and maybe a bit more "full". What I didn't expect is that I can't choose between the two. Every time I thought one was clearly superior, on the next song I felt the other was clearly superior, and back & forth it went. Each individual recording favored one DAC over the other!

I clearly believe DACs make a noticeable difference and feel the Modi to Bifrost upgrade was worthy. However, within a given level of DAC performance there may be no way to anticipate which will sound best in any given situation. Your stereo system components may favor one DAC in general, but the music genre may indicate a different one, and then the individual song recording may indicate a different one yet. My unexpected conclusion is that within a given level of DAC performance there may not be much point in worrying which one you have!

 

[deaver]

Hi, I am interested in your final sentence as I have been mulling over trying a new Dac , the problem for me is that I find it hard to get my head around how a signal from the Dac can change such things as Separation, Bass weight, sound stage etc. Surely the Dac just sends the converted signal to the Amplifier which then does its thing then sends it to the Speakers which then do their thing as regards Sound stage etc. As I say I struggle to see how the Dac can change what the Amp and Speakers are putting out. I would love someone to explain it to me as I have a 10 year old Arcam IrDac which is very well made , but could I be missing out on improving my system. Maybe!!

 

[nopiano]

Might be my last post as my midlife crisis system upgrade fiasco must end now. Not sure how significant this one is but thought I'd report my findings.

For streaming Amazon HD, three years ago I first moved from a Soundblaster Xfi Titanium PC sound card to a Schiit Modi DAC and heard a general improvement. Six months later I upgraded to a Schiit Bifrost 2 and heard more improvement in detail, soundstage size & bass heft. This last summer I got a second one for my headphone amp (in a different room), but this one is the newer Bifrost 2/64 which has different chips. Finally tested them against each other in my main system, going back & forth on maybe a dozen songs.

In every case I heard what was expected from reviews: the new Bifrost 2/64 sounds clearer & more detailed and the old Bifrost 2 sounds a little "thick" with midrange and maybe a bit more "full". What I didn't expect is that I can't choose between the two. Every time I thought one was clearly superior, on the next song I felt the other was clearly superior, and back & forth it went. Each individual recording favored one DAC over the other!

I clearly believe DACs make a noticeable difference and feel the Modi to Bifrost upgrade was worthy. However, within a given level of DAC performance there may be no way to anticipate which will sound best in any given situation. Your stereo system components may favor one DAC in general, but the music genre may indicate a different one, and then the individual song recording may indicate a different one yet. My unexpected conclusion is that within a given level of DAC performance there may not be much point in worrying which one you have!

I don’t doubt for a second what you believe you heard. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to exclude the expectations we have when connecting a new piece of kit.

I’ve been listening to hifi for over fifty years now, and fifteen of those I spent each Saturday working at a Hifi shop where I heard probably hundreds of amps and speakers, never mind cartridges and CD players. However, I find listening to the gear and listening to music in the ordinary way to be quite different, try as I might not to!

That’s why longer-term listening is helpful, rather than the quick switch we do when swapping. Your experience is what often happens - you can’t reliably tell one from t’other, and if you can the levels are probably different enough to be audible.

I can’t really advocate true blind testing as it’s too complex, but not knowing what’s playing can give surprising results. DACs are probably the least likely product to reveal meaningful differences, given that technically even the simplest DAC has pretty much all the usual distortions and noises at an inaudibly low level. Nevertheless, many will claim night and day improvements, and if that makes them happy then that’s great!

 

[SeattleChris]

Hi, I am interested in your final sentence as I have been mulling over trying a new Dac , the problem for me is that I find it hard to get my head around how a signal from the Dac can change such things as Separation, Bass weight, sound stage etc. Surely the Dac just sends the converted signal to the Amplifier which then does its thing then sends it to the Speakers which then do their thing as regards Sound stage etc. As I say I struggle to see how the Dac can change what the Amp and Speakers are putting out. I would love someone to explain it to me as I have a 10 year old Arcam IrDac which is very well made , but could I be missing out on improving my system. Maybe!!

Hi deaver - Lots of debate here as to how much different DACs affect sound, or if they even can. As nopiano suggested, expectations affect our perception so comparisons are difficult as few of us manage to do them blind. I try to keep that in mind, second guessing (and third and forth guessing) whether I'm really hearing what I think I am.

I feel my Bifrost 2/64 vs Bifrost 2 test has some validity because while I heard exactly what I expected on every song, that didn't mean one was better over-all. It was split pretty evenly, half the songs sounded better with the 2/64's clearer, more detailed presentation and half sounded better with the 2's more "full" presentation (even if not as clear & detailed). If each individual recording favors one DAC over the other there's no point in worrying about which one I'm using. However, I'm confident both Bifrosts sound better than the Modi, but at several times the price you would sure hope so (and is that why I think so?). I'm afraid all you can do is see for yourself if you're able...

 

[Gray]

Based on my limited DAC experience, I can't imagine differences ever really being anything more than subtle.
Subtle enough to make blind comparisons difficult, if not impossible.
Can you imagine saying that about speaker comparisons?

When it comes to improving sound, DACs must be well down the list of things to change, virtually non-existent on the "bang for buck" spectrum.

 

[abacus]

Hi, I am interested in your final sentence as I have been mulling over trying a new Dac , the problem for me is that I find it hard to get my head around how a signal from the Dac can change such things as Separation, Bass weight, sound stage etc. Surely the Dac just sends the converted signal to the Amplifier which then does its thing then sends it to the Speakers which then do their thing as regards Sound stage etc. As I say I struggle to see how the Dac can change what the Amp and Speakers are putting out. I would love someone to explain it to me as I have a 10 year old Arcam IrDac which is very well made , but could I be missing out on improving my system. Maybe!!

Assuming it's a good quality DAC then the associated components and circuit design makes the biggest difference, however it is not going to be a big difference but will be noticeable (Usually lower noise and distortion etc.) depending on the quality of the rest of the equipment it is feeding.

Bill

 

[busb]

I upgraded my Audiolab M-Dac to an M-Dac+ many years ago - I considered the improvement in SQ worthwhile at the time. I could not hear any appreciable difference when changing the filters. If you belief that amplifiers, CD players sound different then why not DACs?

I certainly think that the differences myself & others "hear" can be heavily influenced by expectation bias, tiredness, tinnitus etc.

 

[Gray]

If you belief that amplifiers, CD players sound different then why not DACs?

I don't think anyone is saying DACs don't make any difference - anyone who's tried a DAC on the digital output of their CDP, knows it will change the sound.

But few people (surely) would expect much more than subtle sound differences between (adequately decent) DACs.

You're right about the filters...I've even seen reviewers say they shouldn't bother with them, rather than pretend they can hear anything worthwhile.
And when golden eared reviewers can't hear a difference, what chance have ordinary people got? 🤔

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I would say DAC don't make any difference. Also CD players.

 

[podknocker]

I once owned a Denon DVD2900 and that sounded incredibly crisp and detailed from the first seconds of listening. I don't know what part of that player made it sound that good, but I've never owned a disc player sound as good, apart from my Sony 4k Blu Ray player when listening to the audio on the free bundled crappy Spiderman disc. DACs play an important part of course, but there are many other things like the accuracy of the optics and error correction and also the players power supply etc. I've always said CD players sound different, but I can't agree that a new CD player today would sound much better than a decent Sony ES player from 35 years ago. The most expensive DACs are about £50 when bought in bulk from either AKM or ESS. I would doubt anyone could tell the difference between these £50 slabs of audio silicon, if they were embedded in players with identical circuitry and all things being equal.

 

[Witterings]

I clearly believe DACs make a noticeable difference and feel the Modi to Bifrost upgrade was worthy. However, within a given level of DAC performance there may be no way to anticipate which will sound best in any given situation. Your stereo system components may favor one DAC in general, but the music genre may indicate a different one, and then the individual song recording may indicate a different one yet. My unexpected conclusion is that within a given level of DAC performance there may not be much point in worrying which one you have!

I do agree with this ... not at the same price level but for ages I've used a WiiM Pro coax out into my Arcam SA30 which has a well regarded ESS Sabre chip.
I saw something recently where someone posted they preferred the sound of their WiiM Pro Plus with an AKM chip rather than using their Arcams ESS Sabre DAC.

As I also have a Pro Plus I set it up so could back to back and compare the 2 by just switching the input on the amp.
My initial impression was I was blown away by the Pro Plus dac in comparison and thought he was right, it has a much wider soundstage which was the 1st thing I noticed, making it seem like the SA 30's dac was too "compressed" and missng the breadth of the sound .... I also felt that there was possibly some more detail on the Pro Plus

The more I tested it over 2 evenings though the more I reaslised how track dependent the difference was, to the extent with some there was a quite a distiguishable difference and others it was virtually non existant .
I also started to feel that in some instances the extra width of soundstage was too much and they never actually seemed to converge in the middle which giving it a slighly unnatural feel (this may partially be how wide apart my speakers are).
What I initially felt was a compressed sound from the Pro, after a while became a more concentrated and precise placement with greater weight / punch.

My conclusion .... I don't feel one is better than the other ..... they're just slightly different with "better" coming down to personal prefernce, choice of music and possibly room layout combined with other equipment.

I would however like to compare with something quite a lot more expensive one day but can't help think it'd be a similar experience especially with the law of diminishing returns.

 

[Gray]

I would say DAC don't make any difference. Also CD players.

You've got no chance of hearing differences between cables then

 

[Jasonovich]

Hi, I am interested in your final sentence as I have been mulling over trying a new Dac , the problem for me is that I find it hard to get my head around how a signal from the Dac can change such things as Separation, Bass weight, sound stage etc. Surely the Dac just sends the converted signal to the Amplifier which then does its thing then sends it to the Speakers which then do their thing as regards Sound stage etc. As I say I struggle to see how the Dac can change what the Amp and Speakers are putting out. I would love someone to explain it to me as I have a 10 year old Arcam IrDac which is very well made , but could I be missing out on improving my system. Maybe!!

It's a question many people have asked.

I recall my first serious DAC was a Topping E30, it sounded better to my ears than my FX-Audio DAC. When we had a power outage, unfortunately my Topping got cooked and was subsequently replaced with Topping E50. Was it placebo, my expectation that I am going to get a better sound?

Yes there was marked improvement over the E30. Not the kind of difference you will see when changing your amplifier or speakers. The sound to my ears seemed more fuller, less lean.
I eventually upgraded to Eversolo DAC, noticeable improvements there also.
I sold the E50 on eBay, the person who brought it from me, also, previously owned Topping E30 and he was more ecstatic, he was saying big big improvements in the sound.
I can't be mad surely or do we all have the same mechanism in our brain. you know the little placebo button that gets pressed each time you upgrade your Hifi?

The general consensus is that; DACs don’t make a major difference in terms of sound quality unless your system is noisy. It is subtle. The better a DAC is, the more accurately it will perform its digital to analogue-conversion. However, more expensive DACs typically don’t make a noticeable difference in terms of audio quality but will reduce noise.

The better a DAC is, the more accurately it will perform its digital to analogue conversion. Better quality clock often seen in more expensive DACs will reduce the jitter and distortion.

Also, looking at it from a scientific context, DACs measure differently so perhaps this gives clue to the overall sound quality?

 

[Jasonovich]

You've got no chance of hearing differences between cables then

Somebody mentioned cables?

Do you remember that scene from Dusk to Dawn (Excellent Tarrantino horror flick)

As they were entering the night club (vampire nest).....the scene where Danny Trejo was going on about 'Cats'

Now remove the offending word and replace it with Cables

I got Tall cables​

I got short cables​

I got skinny cables​

I got fat cables​

I got brown cables​

I got white cables​

I got yellow cables​

​

C - A - B - L - E - S​

​

Sorry I digress but Gray you've embedded into my brain! ​

 

[Gray]

Do you remember that scene from Dusk to Dawn (Excellent Tarrantino horror flick)

Sorry Jason, most film references are lost on me.
(Would honestly struggle to name 10 films I've ever watched).

In fact, if I was offered a million quid to name any 10 films in 15 seconds....doubt I could do it.

 

[Jasonovich]

Sorry Jason, most film references are lost on me.
(Would honestly struggle to name 10 films I've ever watched).

In fact, if I was offered a million quid to name any 10 films in 15 seconds....doubt I could do it.

Not a bad thing Gray

 

[Friesiansam]

Sorry Jason, most film references are lost on me.
(Would honestly struggle to name 10 films I've ever watched).

In fact, if I was offered a million quid to name any 10 films in 15 seconds....doubt I could do it.

I too, would not get the money and, I haven't watched a single film this year.

 

[Rodolfo]

What I have never bought, literally or otherwise, are dedicated DACs.

Yet, I did a quick survey and count, and find I actually own 18 DACs, in the following array;

5 in tablets/computers, including one used exclusively as a music streamer
2 in "pure" computers
1 in a rarely-used, and then only for music, "pure" laptop
1 in an integrated amp
3 in CD players
1 in a Blue-Ray player
2 in DAPs (which are barely anything other than DACs)
3 in phones

There are differences of various kinds among these, including least-importantly in branding, but I don't compare any of them: it's truly Plenty for me to appreciate that they all reproduce my nice music CDs, SACDs, DVD-As, and FLAC or 320kbps files very satisfactorily through my also nice and satisfactory speakers and head- and ear-phones.

I have rarely ever compared anything, except for fun, with my brother and a friend who have also enjoyed doing it occasionally. And then it is about comparing music, which we care a lot about, not equipment. Alone, I do enjoy reading threads about all sorts of comparison ideas, stories, and beliefs, including of DACs -and cables, and streamers, etc...

Speaking of... I've also never bought -or swallowed?- dedicated streamers (also barely anything other than DACs) --but that is for many other threads.

 

[nopiano]

What I have never bought, literally or otherwise, are dedicated DACs.

Yet, I did a quick survey and count, and find I actually own 18 DACs, in the following array;

5 in tablets/computers, including one used exclusively as a music streamer
2 in "pure" computers
1 in a rarely-used, and then only for music, "pure" laptop
1 in an integrated amp
3 in CD players
1 in a Blue-Ray player
2 in DAPs (which are barely anything other than DACs)
3 in phones

There are differences of various kinds among these, including least-importantly in branding, but I don't compare any of them: it's truly Plenty for me to appreciate that they all reproduce my nice music CDs, SACDs, DVD-As, and FLAC or 320kbps files very satisfactorily through my also nice and satisfactory speakers and head- and ear-phones.

I have rarely ever compared anything, except for fun, with my brother and a friend who have also enjoyed doing it occasionally. And then it is about comparing music, which we care a lot about, not equipment. Alone, I do enjoy reading threads about all sorts of comparison ideas, stories, and beliefs, including of DACs -and cables, and streamers, etc...

Speaking of... I've also never bought -or swallowed?- dedicated streamers (also barely anything other than DACs) --but that is for many other threads.

Do TVs contain one, at least in a modern ‘smart’ TV?

 

[Jasonovich]

Do TVs contain one, at least in a modern ‘smart’ TV?

Not sure if Freeview built in counts? It converts digital transmission DTTV into video and analogue sound.

 

[SeattleChris]

I do agree with this ... not at the same price level but for ages I've used a WiiM Pro coax out into my Arcam SA30 which has a well regarded ESS Sabre chip.
I saw something recently where someone posted they preferred the sound of their WiiM Pro Plus with an AKM chip rather than using their Arcams ESS Sabre DAC.

As I also have a Pro Plus I set it up so could back to back and compare the 2 by just switching the input on the amp.
My initial impression was I was blown away by the Pro Plus dac in comparison and thought he was right, it has a much wider soundstage which was the 1st thing I noticed, making it seem like the SA 30's dac was too "compressed" and missng the breadth of the sound .... I also felt that there was possibly some more detail on the Pro Plus

The more I tested it over 2 evenings though the more I reaslised how track dependent the difference was, to the extent with some there was a quite a distiguishable difference and others it was virtually non existant .
I also started to feel that in some instances the extra width of soundstage was too much and they never actually seemed to converge in the middle which giving it a slighly unnatural feel (this may partially be how wide apart my speakers are).
What I initially felt was a compressed sound from the Pro, after a while became a more concentrated and precise placement with greater weight / punch.

My conclusion .... I don't feel one is better than the other ..... they're just slightly different with "better" coming down to personal prefernce, choice of music and possibly room layout combined with other equipment.

I would however like to compare with something quite a lot more expensive one day but can't help think it'd be a similar experience especially with the law of diminishing returns.

Hi Witterings - Agreed. I wasn't surprised to hear the difference between the two Bifrost models, but I was surprised that each individual recording favors one or the other to the point I can't choose between the two over-all.

My experience indicates a good DAC upgrade might exceed an amp upgrade and may be similar to a minor speaker upgrade. When detail improves and soundstage width & depth expand it's worth consideration if budget allows.

 

[Gray]

Do TVs contain one, at least in a modern ‘smart’ TV?

Yes

 

[Gray]

Not sure if Freeview built in counts? It converts digital transmission DTTV into video and analogue sound.

👍
Any digital TV must, necessarily, have a DAC 'built-in'.

 

[Noddy]

You've got no chance of hearing differences between cables then

🤣🤣🤣

I can't be mad surely or do we all have the same mechanism in our brain. you know the little placebo button that gets pressed each time you upgrade your Hifi?

The placebo effect is incredibly strong, you can even tell someone they have received a placebo drug, and it will have the placebo effect.

I decided to replace my speaker cables, as they were very different lengths and a bit ugly. The new ones were nothing special, from KabelDirect, a reputable supplier. For days I heard a huge improvement in the sound when the two were compared. Gradually that impression vanished.

I was also convinced that speaker break in was real, and when I auditioned at home new Kef LS50 Metas, straight out of the box, I heard a gradual break in as expected. When I received my brand new pair, they sounded … the same. There was no break in. Okay, there might have been subtle changes, I can’t rule that out, but nothing obvious as per the supposed break in of the first pair. I suspect the brain initially adapts to the sound, if the treble is too high, it makes adjustments, just as if you wear glasses that turn the world upside down, over time the world rights itself.

The general consensus is that; DACs don’t make a major difference in terms of sound quality unless your system is noisy. It is subtle. The better a DAC is, the more accurately it will perform its digital to analogue-conversion. However, more expensive DACs typically don’t make a noticeable difference in terms of audio quality but will reduce noise.

The better a DAC is, the more accurately it will perform its digital to analogue conversion. Better quality clock often seen in more expensive DACs will reduce the jitter and distortion.

Also, looking at it from a scientific context, DACs measure differently so perhaps this gives clue to the overall sound quality?

With a good DAC the differences will be below the threshold of audibility. Cheaper ones will be audibly worse e.g. the one in the Wiim Mini. Of course a manufacturer of a boutique DAC could voice the frequency response, I don’t know if that happens.

I had a Chord Mojo. I compared it with the £10 Apple DAC dongle, and I couldn’t hear a difference, using a Sennheiser HD600 and an Audeze Sine. Some reviewers will tell you the opposite. To be fair it is incredibly different to perform such tests, and you really need to have two systems level matched to each other. Measurements confirm that they should sound the same, except that the Mojo can provide a higher output signal which can be important with insensitive headphones. The Mojo failed after 18 months, a piece of overpriced overhyped junk.