DAC comparison

[SeattleChris]

Might be my last post as my midlife crisis system upgrade fiasco must end now. Not sure how significant this one is but thought I'd report my findings.

For streaming Amazon HD, three years ago I first moved from a Soundblaster Xfi Titanium PC sound card to a Schiit Modi DAC and heard a general improvement. Six months later I upgraded to a Schiit Bifrost 2 and heard more improvement in detail, soundstage size & bass heft. This last summer I got a second one for my headphone amp (in a different room), but this one is the newer Bifrost 2/64 which has different chips. Finally tested them against each other in my main system, going back & forth on maybe a dozen songs.

In every case I heard what was expected from reviews: the new Bifrost 2/64 sounds clearer & more detailed and the old Bifrost 2 sounds a little "thick" with midrange and maybe a bit more "full". What I didn't expect is that I can't choose between the two. Every time I thought one was clearly superior, on the next song I felt the other was clearly superior, and back & forth it went. Each individual recording favored one DAC over the other!

I clearly believe DACs make a noticeable difference and feel the Modi to Bifrost upgrade was worthy. However, within a given level of DAC performance there may be no way to anticipate which will sound best in any given situation. Your stereo system components may favor one DAC in general, but the music genre may indicate a different one, and then the individual song recording may indicate a different one yet. My unexpected conclusion is that within a given level of DAC performance there may not be much point in worrying which one you have!

 

[deaver]

Hi, I am interested in your final sentence as I have been mulling over trying a new Dac , the problem for me is that I find it hard to get my head around how a signal from the Dac can change such things as Separation, Bass weight, sound stage etc. Surely the Dac just sends the converted signal to the Amplifier which then does its thing then sends it to the Speakers which then do their thing as regards Sound stage etc. As I say I struggle to see how the Dac can change what the Amp and Speakers are putting out. I would love someone to explain it to me as I have a 10 year old Arcam IrDac which is very well made , but could I be missing out on improving my system. Maybe!!

 

[nopiano]

Might be my last post as my midlife crisis system upgrade fiasco must end now. Not sure how significant this one is but thought I'd report my findings.

For streaming Amazon HD, three years ago I first moved from a Soundblaster Xfi Titanium PC sound card to a Schiit Modi DAC and heard a general improvement. Six months later I upgraded to a Schiit Bifrost 2 and heard more improvement in detail, soundstage size & bass heft. This last summer I got a second one for my headphone amp (in a different room), but this one is the newer Bifrost 2/64 which has different chips. Finally tested them against each other in my main system, going back & forth on maybe a dozen songs.

In every case I heard what was expected from reviews: the new Bifrost 2/64 sounds clearer & more detailed and the old Bifrost 2 sounds a little "thick" with midrange and maybe a bit more "full". What I didn't expect is that I can't choose between the two. Every time I thought one was clearly superior, on the next song I felt the other was clearly superior, and back & forth it went. Each individual recording favored one DAC over the other!

I clearly believe DACs make a noticeable difference and feel the Modi to Bifrost upgrade was worthy. However, within a given level of DAC performance there may be no way to anticipate which will sound best in any given situation. Your stereo system components may favor one DAC in general, but the music genre may indicate a different one, and then the individual song recording may indicate a different one yet. My unexpected conclusion is that within a given level of DAC performance there may not be much point in worrying which one you have!

I don’t doubt for a second what you believe you heard. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to exclude the expectations we have when connecting a new piece of kit.

I’ve been listening to hifi for over fifty years now, and fifteen of those I spent each Saturday working at a Hifi shop where I heard probably hundreds of amps and speakers, never mind cartridges and CD players. However, I find listening to the gear and listening to music in the ordinary way to be quite different, try as I might not to!

That’s why longer-term listening is helpful, rather than the quick switch we do when swapping. Your experience is what often happens - you can’t reliably tell one from t’other, and if you can the levels are probably different enough to be audible.

I can’t really advocate true blind testing as it’s too complex, but not knowing what’s playing can give surprising results. DACs are probably the least likely product to reveal meaningful differences, given that technically even the simplest DAC has pretty much all the usual distortions and noises at an inaudibly low level. Nevertheless, many will claim night and day improvements, and if that makes them happy then that’s great!

 

[SeattleChris]

Hi, I am interested in your final sentence as I have been mulling over trying a new Dac , the problem for me is that I find it hard to get my head around how a signal from the Dac can change such things as Separation, Bass weight, sound stage etc. Surely the Dac just sends the converted signal to the Amplifier which then does its thing then sends it to the Speakers which then do their thing as regards Sound stage etc. As I say I struggle to see how the Dac can change what the Amp and Speakers are putting out. I would love someone to explain it to me as I have a 10 year old Arcam IrDac which is very well made , but could I be missing out on improving my system. Maybe!!

Hi deaver - Lots of debate here as to how much different DACs affect sound, or if they even can. As nopiano suggested, expectations affect our perception so comparisons are difficult as few of us manage to do them blind. I try to keep that in mind, second guessing (and third and forth guessing) whether I'm really hearing what I think I am.

I feel my Bifrost 2/64 vs Bifrost 2 test has some validity because while I heard exactly what I expected on every song, that didn't mean one was better over-all. It was split pretty evenly, half the songs sounded better with the 2/64's clearer, more detailed presentation and half sounded better with the 2's more "full" presentation (even if not as clear & detailed). If each individual recording favors one DAC over the other there's no point in worrying about which one I'm using. However, I'm confident both Bifrosts sound better than the Modi, but at several times the price you would sure hope so (and is that why I think so?). I'm afraid all you can do is see for yourself if you're able...

 

[Gray]

Based on my limited DAC experience, I can't imagine differences ever really being anything more than subtle.
Subtle enough to make blind comparisons difficult, if not impossible.
Can you imagine saying that about speaker comparisons?

When it comes to improving sound, DACs must be well down the list of things to change, virtually non-existent on the "bang for buck" spectrum.

 

[abacus]

Hi, I am interested in your final sentence as I have been mulling over trying a new Dac , the problem for me is that I find it hard to get my head around how a signal from the Dac can change such things as Separation, Bass weight, sound stage etc. Surely the Dac just sends the converted signal to the Amplifier which then does its thing then sends it to the Speakers which then do their thing as regards Sound stage etc. As I say I struggle to see how the Dac can change what the Amp and Speakers are putting out. I would love someone to explain it to me as I have a 10 year old Arcam IrDac which is very well made , but could I be missing out on improving my system. Maybe!!

Assuming it's a good quality DAC then the associated components and circuit design makes the biggest difference, however it is not going to be a big difference but will be noticeable (Usually lower noise and distortion etc.) depending on the quality of the rest of the equipment it is feeding.

Bill

 

[busb]

I upgraded my Audiolab M-Dac to an M-Dac+ many years ago - I considered the improvement in SQ worthwhile at the time. I could not hear any appreciable difference when changing the filters. If you belief that amplifiers, CD players sound different then why not DACs?

I certainly think that the differences myself & others "hear" can be heavily influenced by expectation bias, tiredness, tinnitus etc.

 

[Gray]

If you belief that amplifiers, CD players sound different then why not DACs?

I don't think anyone is saying DACs don't make any difference - anyone who's tried a DAC on the digital output of their CDP, knows it will change the sound.

But few people (surely) would expect much more than subtle sound differences between (adequately decent) DACs.

You're right about the filters...I've even seen reviewers say they shouldn't bother with them, rather than pretend they can hear anything worthwhile.
And when golden eared reviewers can't hear a difference, what chance have ordinary people got? 🤔

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I would say DAC don't make any difference. Also CD players.

 

[podknocker]

I once owned a Denon DVD2900 and that sounded incredibly crisp and detailed from the first seconds of listening. I don't know what part of that player made it sound that good, but I've never owned a disc player sound as good, apart from my Sony 4k Blu Ray player when listening to the audio on the free bundled crappy Spiderman disc. DACs play an important part of course, but there are many other things like the accuracy of the optics and error correction and also the players power supply etc. I've always said CD players sound different, but I can't agree that a new CD player today would sound much better than a decent Sony ES player from 35 years ago. The most expensive DACS are about £50 when bought in bulk from either AKM or ESS. I would doubt anyone could tell the difference between these £50 slabs of audio silicon, if they were embedded in players with identical circuitry and all things being equal.

 

[Witterings]

I clearly believe DACs make a noticeable difference and feel the Modi to Bifrost upgrade was worthy. However, within a given level of DAC performance there may be no way to anticipate which will sound best in any given situation. Your stereo system components may favor one DAC in general, but the music genre may indicate a different one, and then the individual song recording may indicate a different one yet. My unexpected conclusion is that within a given level of DAC performance there may not be much point in worrying which one you have!

I do agree with this ... not at the same price level but for ages I've used a WiiM Pro coax out into my Arcam SA30 which has a well regarded ESS Sabre chip.
I saw something recently where someone posted they preferred the sound of their WiiM Pro Plus with an AKM chip rather than using their Arcams ESS Sabre DAC.

As I also have a Pro Plus I set it up so could back to back and compare the 2 by just switching the input on the amp.
My initial impression was I was blown away by the Pro Plus dac in comparison and thought he was right, it has a much wider soundstage which was the 1st thing I noticed, making it seem like the SA 30's dac was too "compressed" and missng the breadth of the sound .... I also felt that there was possibly some more detail on the Pro Plus

The more I tested it over 2 evenings though the more I reaslised how track dependent the difference was, to the extent with some there was a quite a distiguishable difference and others it was virtually non existant .
I also started to feel that in some instances the extra width of soundstage was too much and they never actually seemed to converge in the middle which giving it a slighly unnatural feel (this may partially be how wide apart my speakers are).
What I initially felt was a compressed sound from the Pro, after a while became a more concentrated and precise placement with greater weight / punch.

My conclusion .... I don't feel one is better than the other ..... they're just slightly different with "better" coming down to personal prefernce, choice of music and possibly room layout combined with other equipment.

I would however like to compare with something quite a lot more expensive one day but can't help think it'd be a similar experience especially with the law of diminishing returns.

 

[Gray]

I would say DAC don't make any difference. Also CD players.

You've got no chance of hearing differences between cables then