Clearaudio Concept - MM or MC

[james_k100]

As simple a question as that - MM or MC.

Have demo'd the turntable with MM and loved it - fantastic clarity and data retrieval.

Am not able to demo the Concept MC - what are the relative benefits? I can upgrade the Concept MM to the Virtuoso MM or Maestro MM cartridge for similar money to having the Concept MC cartridge...thoughts?

All advice appreciated!

 

[Al ears]

Perhaps it may help if you tell us what amplifier you have as a lot of this is going to hinge on whether or not you can actually use a MC cartridge (most MC's normally have a much lower output voltage than MM's, and the Concept MC only outputs 0.42mV).

Will look up info on them but bear in mind you do not necessarily have to use Clearaudio cartridges at all.

As a general rule of thumb I would not consider moving coil cartridges under £600, up to this price point I stick with a similarly priced Moving Magnet type.

Hope this helps.

 

[james_k100]

Using an Arcam A19 - but looking to upgrade to a Music Fidelity M3si or a Cyrus....

The Phono Stage will be the Clearaudio Basic+ - the reason for the Clearaudio cartridge is that I'm getting a package deal on it all.

The Concept MC retails at about £600 but getting it with the Concept Turntable works out better - £1395 with it - it's £995 with the MM cartridge fitted....thus the decision being between taking the Concept MC or the Concept Turntable but upgrading to the Virtuoso or Maestro.

 

[Al ears]

Using an Arcam A19 - but looking to upgrade to a Music Fidelity M3si or a Cyrus....

The Phono Stage will be the Clearaudio Basic+ - the reason for the Clearaudio cartridge is that I'm getting a package deal on it all.

The Concept MC retails at about £600 but getting it with the Concept Turntable works out better - £1395 with it - it's £995 with the MM cartridge fitted....thus the decision being between taking the Concept MC or the Concept Turntable but upgrading to the Virtuoso or Maestro.

Right James,

Musical Fidelity is a nice amp with a very good MM phonostage. So personally I'd hold off until you know what amp you are actually going to get.

I cannot understand the logic of going for a package with an MC cartridge in this price range when it would mean buying a phono preamp that is going to cost as much as the cartridge itself. Why not ditch all the cartridges / preamp and buy yourself a very nice £600 moving magnet? If you had intended spending much more on a moving coil then I'd have said it might just then have made sense, but not as it stands in my opinion.

Just trying to help you understand, no intention of offending so hope I haven't.

 

[bigfish786]

Is the marantz tt15s1 turntable. Built by clearaudio, comes with a clearaudio arm and Vertuoso wood cartridge. Can be sourced from Europe for around 900 quid.

 

[Al ears]

Is the marantz tt15s1 turntable. Built by clearaudio, comes with a clearaudio arm and Vertuoso wood cartridge. Can be sourced from Europe for around 900 quid.

That's not a bad suggestion at all... gets the OP his cartridge upgrade and saves the expense of a phono preamp.. Nice one.

 

[davedotco]

I heard the players 2 or 3 years ago at a dealer/friend's establishment, this was when the players were about £400-500 more expensive than they are today.

Comparing the standard MM and MC package I thought there was no comparison really, the MC was just so much more delicate and refined that it was easily worth the difference. The phono stage was a Clearaudio of relatively modest cost, a Nano maybe.

That said I have always been a fan of moving coil cartriges since my first Denon DL103 in the mid 70s, for anything resembling a decent vinyl system I would always look at a MC. (Personal preference alert.....!)

 

[Al ears]

I heard the players 2 or 3 years ago at a dealer/friend's establishment, this was when the players were about £400-500 more expensive than they are today.

Comparing the standard MM and MC package I thought there was no comparison really, the MC was just so much more delicate and refined that it was easily worth the difference. The phono stage was a Clearaudio of relatively modest cost, a Nano maybe.

That said I have always been a fan of moving coil cartriges since my first Denon DL103 in the mid 70s, for anything resembling a decent vinyl system I would always look at a MC. (Personal preference alert.....!)

I will not disagree with you there davedotco as I too progressed up from the DL103R version (lovely cartridge, no wonder they are still making them).

My point to James was that there is a certain price point where the Moving Magnet cartridge is a better buy compared to the cost of a Moving Coil cartridge + the cost of the required phono preamp. As an example if I had £600 pound to spend I'd rather get a £600 moving magnet rather than a £300 moving coil and £300 phono preamp even though I love low output Moving Coils.

 

[davedotco]

Morning Al,

I understand where you are coming from with that comment but it absolutely does not work for me. (Personal preference again).

There is something quite fundamentally different about moving coil cartridges, and that difference to me is crucial. Even if we keep to affordable models, 'coils make a huge difference, from the big, solid presence of the old DL103 to the refined all round competence of the AT OC9s, they are a class apart from moving magnets.

Over the years I have owned, sold and handled mc cartridges from the inexpensive AT F3 to top of the line Kiseki (Lapis Lazuli) and Koetsu (Urushi, Signature) via Lyras, exotic Ortofons and heaven knows what else, for me they are a fundamental part of what makes a top end vinyl setup worth listening too.

 

[Al ears]

Morning dave,

I do appreciate where you are coming from as I'm the same myself. Whilst I have no intention of entering Koetsu heights I was trying to assist someone who's exact budget we still do not know.

I wouldn't have anything other than a low output MC now but I have heard some pretty dire cheapo ones and would not like to direct the uninitiated there which is why I suggested a 'do not go below' figure.

 

[james_k100]

Hi guys - thankyou for your comments they are hugely appreciated - price wise I am happy to make the extra outlay for the difference in performance.

The real question is - is that price leap worth it - I will be unable to listen to the MC before purchase, don't get me wrong if I'm not happy I can take it back afterwards but can't be doing with the rigmarole!

I have listened to the MM a great deal and it's excellent - if I mark it up a little bit I will stand to make some good savings on the Phono stage(I will buy one eventually) so rather than making baby steps thought it better to make a leap!

 

[Al ears]

Hi guys - thankyou for your comments they are hugely appreciated - price wise I am happy to make the extra outlay for the difference in performance.

The real question is - is that price leap worth it - I will be unable to listen to the MC before purchase, don't get me wrong if I'm not happy I can take it back afterwards but can't be doing with the rigmarole!

I have listened to the MM a great deal and it's excellent - if I mark it up a little bit I will stand to make some good savings on the Phono stage(I will buy one eventually) so rather than making baby steps thought it better to make a leap!

If the above is the case and you can afford to do so then buy the MC+ phono preamp now. If you don't you'll always be wondering 'what if?' I'm sure davedotco would agree.

I don't think I'd ever go back to a Moving Magnet now. Enjoy!

 

[jerry klinger]

Some slightly bizarre comments on this thread. The OP said, quite interestingly, that he found the Concept extremely good. I would counsel listening to both, but in fact I'm interested myself in the new Concept Wood MC (with the latest birch plinth) as it seems an exptremely well-designed package with a number of useful updates to the original Concept.

As far as MC carts generally, I've had a number over the years and it's by no means true that the more you spend the better (or more satisfying) you get. For example, I've had a Dynavector DV10x5 (high output, £250 when bought in 2005) for ages and wouldn't part with it (second system on an RP6). Conversely, I've had a couple of their low output MCs at several hundred more and found them unsatisfying.

The Quintet Black sounded like a great cartridge to me, but if Clearaudio furnish a t/t with an MC which happens to cost only £400 on its own there's no reason to assume it wouldn't be the right cart for the deck. Me, I'd go for properly designed synergy over unbalanced dosh-sploshing any day.

New Concept Wood MC is £1595 and looks superb.

 

[davedotco]

Is always an issue and I think you are mostly right in terms of turntable 'packages'.

The Clearaudios are decent examples of where this is generally a good thing, their packages are usually well judged and while I have little doubt that better pairings might be possible it would be just as easy to end up with something less good. In the 'old' days a good dealer would be able to advise, but these days the requisite knowledge and experience is hard to find.

 

[Al ears]

You have clearly demonstrated that everyones ears are different and I have always stated on this forum that it is OK to ask advice but ultimately you'll have to go and audition for yourself.

It is also a well known fact that, when buying turntable packages, they are not always fitted with a decent cartridge. Most have a basic 'do the job' cartridge fitted to save money on the package as a whole. Whilst quality may change slightly the further upmarket you go the same principle applies which is why (synergy or not) I would never buy a turntable package.

I like to think I know my cartridges and I certainly have come to understand value-for-money (a principle which my whole system is built around), so I'd like to fit my own cartridge tah very much.

Synergy may play a part but, quite frankly, anyone who buys a Rega package of the cheap variety is ultimately wasting good money on a cartridge that isn't really that good.

You like high output moving coils and I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole, everyone differs that's the nature of things.

In this thread it wasn't until the OP stated he was going to get a phono preamp anyway that I suggested a Moving Coil might be worth looking at. A more expensive moving magnet might have done his system more justice was what I was trying to get at rather than splitting the cash 50:50 on a MC and phono preamp, and I still stick to that if you want value for money, a concept which as far as I know is anything but bizarre.

I'd possibly disagree with your point about a £400 Clearaudio fitted cartridge as being right for the deck, it's there purely so they can sell the package at a reasonable price to customers who can't be bothered or don't know how to fit their own. It might very well suit the deck but probably not the best cartridge you could get for that money.

 

[Al ears]

Is always an issue and I think you are mostly right in terms of turntable 'packages'.

The Clearaudios are decent examples of where this is generally a good thing, their packages are usually well judged and while I have little doubt that better pairings might be possible it would be just as easy to end up with something less good. In the 'old' days a good dealer would be able to advise, but these days the requisite knowledge and experience is hard to find.

I was going to add a bit about the loss of / lack of knowledge in my previous post but thought I'd rambled on long enough. However you are quite correct in that this 'convenience packaging' is what companies have to resort to in these days of vinyl 'upsurge' in order to sell their kit to the recent vinyl initiates.

 

[davedotco]

Is always an issue and I think you are mostly right in terms of turntable 'packages'.

The Clearaudios are decent examples of where this is generally a good thing, their packages are usually well judged and while I have little doubt that better pairings might be possible it would be just as easy to end up with something less good. In the 'old' days a good dealer would be able to advise, but these days the requisite knowledge and experience is hard to find.

I was going to add a bit about the loss of / lack of knowledge in my previous post but thought I'd rambled on long enough. However you are quite correct in that this 'convenience packaging' is what companies have to resort to in these days of vinyl 'upsurge' in order to sell their kit to the recent vinyl initiates.

There is certainly a degree of 'instant gratification' involved here but the biggest problem remains the lack od compedent dealers at the lower end of the market. Sure there are some upmarket dealers who know their stuff but we are talking fairly serious money here but the market, despite the upsurge, remains small and largely fashion lead.

Many of the budget vinyl systems I have heard are nothing more than parodies of real hi-fi, but it appears that is mainly what the market wants. Suggesting that rather better players are available seems to be dismissed as 'elitism' or some sort of 'snobbery' as they are invariably rather more expensive and 'more than most people can afford'.

 

[Al ears]

Is always an issue and I think you are mostly right in terms of turntable 'packages'.

The Clearaudios are decent examples of where this is generally a good thing, their packages are usually well judged and while I have little doubt that better pairings might be possible it would be just as easy to end up with something less good. In the 'old' days a good dealer would be able to advise, but these days the requisite knowledge and experience is hard to find.

I was going to add a bit about the loss of / lack of knowledge in my previous post but thought I'd rambled on long enough. However you are quite correct in that this 'convenience packaging' is what companies have to resort to in these days of vinyl 'upsurge' in order to sell their kit to the recent vinyl initiates.

There is certainly a degree of 'instant gratification' involved here but the biggest problem remains the lack od compedent dealers at the lower end of the market. Sure there are some upmarket dealers who know their stuff but we are talking fairly serious money here but the market, despite the upsurge, remains small and largely fashion lead.

Many of the budget vinyl systems I have heard are nothing more than parodies of real hi-fi, but it appears that is mainly what the market wants. Suggesting that rather better players are available seems to be dismissed as 'elitism' or some sort of 'snobbery' as they are invariably rather more expensive and 'more than most people can afford'.

I couldn't agree more and, in my particular case, never thought 'elitist' would enter into in. I'm not loaded with cash but knowledge and the luck of finding exactly what I wanted for a low price has enabled me to build a system that would knock even the most expensive Rega set-up into a cocked-hat. My TT itself was purchased for less than the cost of a new RP3, the tonearm cost about half as much again and the cartridge was bought direct from Japan for half the then going UK price.

Result = a system for about the same price as an RP8, and I know which I'd rather have.

I could justify this price because my main source has always been vinyl, it is not just a passing phase or a fashion statement.

I don't consider myself a snob just someone who gets the best value to my 'hard-earnt'.

'Parodies of real hifi' and set-ups purely for convenience are not what I want and now consider to be a complete waste of money.

Going for something that costs 'more than most people can afford' does not enter into it because if you cannot afford to spend out on a half-decent turntable then you certainly are not going to be able to afford much new vinyl at 20 odd quid a pop, and this is much like "don't buy the car if you can't afford the petrol".

 

[jerry klinger]

As far as packages go, I tried the Project Xtension 9 setup with Quintet black and wouldn't in that case feel the need to upgrade the cart. Similarly, the 2xperience sb package which I've listened to, while having a lowly mm, sounded far better than the sum of its parts... So I wouldn't personally make any generalisations re packages.

I'll have a listen to the Concept Wood MC package and report back.

 

[Al ears]

As far as packages go, I tried the Project Xtension 9 setup with Quintet black and wouldn't in that case feel the need to upgrade the cart. Similarly, the 2xperience sb package which I've listened to, while having a lowly mm, sounded far better than the sum of its parts... So I wouldn't personally make any generalisations re packages.

I'll have a listen to the Concept Wood MC package and report back.

I can understand your viewpoint regards packages but my remarks were directed more to the 'entry level' types that exist and not those costing £2200 (which does have a very good cartridge indeed, by the way).