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Class A, A/B endangered species?

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Benedict_Arnold

New member
Jan 16, 2013
661
1
0
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all.
My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
48
4
18,545
Alberich said:
Infiniteloop said:
Alberich said:
Rimse said:
lindsayt said:
The Bel Canto class D amplifier that I heard at an amplifier bake-off had received fantastic reviews and feedback and an owner that rated it highly. Still didn't stop it from making pianos sound all wrong. The best sounding amplifier at that bake-off was class A.
that is why some manufactures make hybrid amps of D class and valves
One of my best experiences with class D was auditioning the NAD M12 / M22. The M22 controlled a pair of JMR Bliss speakers like a dream. Was in awe of its authority and dynamics. One thing I've consistently found with all the class D amps i've experienced though is a slight synthetic character to the music. Some more than others but it's always been there. Some class D to my ears sounds a bit overly clean or a fraction sterile in its reproduction of music. It could possibly do with some of the harmonic distortion that can come with tubes, imo.
I'd be really interested to hear what you thought of the Devialet sound. I love the sound of valves but sometimes find that bass isn't as tight or tuneful as a good SS Amp can provide. For me, the combination of class A and D together as executed by Devialet gives you the best of both worlds.
I had a very brief listen to a pair of Devialet 200 mono blocks paired with B&W 803 DS2 at my dealers a little while ago while I was there picking something else up. Too brief a listen to make a proper judgement really and it was in the busy showroom area so not ideal. One thing that was pretty obvious though was the control the Devialet had over the B&W's, particularly in the bass department. I suppose that's class D's forte really.

I don't doubt for a second though the other quality's of the hybrid A/D topology. Will have to arrange a proper demo even though a pair of 200's mono'ed is way out of my league!
I don't have a pair of 200's (yet) but I'm more than happy with what a single unit does. It seems to have much of the sweetness of class A allied to the power and bass tautness of class D. - Like I said, the best of both worlds really. The SAM implementation is quite remarkable in what it does to the bass. It's not simply a bass boost, but genuinely allows your speakers to go deeper whilst controlling them much more accurately. You can hear the difference instantly by pressing a button on the remote to switch SAM off and on and it's not subtle!

Apparently the Expert Pro 1000 has a damping factor of 8000 which probably has a lot to do with the control a Devialet has over your speakers.
 

Rimse

New member
Dec 14, 2012
18
0
0
[/quote]

I love the sound of valves but sometimes find that bass isn't as tight or tuneful as a good SS Amp can provide.

[/quote]

it is true,tube and cobination of D class comes close to that,depends on music,if acoustic music ,it is fine,if some electronic,no no no,only ss amps can cope
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
244
83
18,870
steve_1979 said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
... After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
In my house I'm more concerned about the kettle being turned on to boil a litre of water then they go off to look a Facebook, get distracted and forget about the kettle. An hour later once it's had time to cool they'll go back to get a cup of coffee, boil the same litre of water again then get distracted by Facebook again... and so the cycle continues.
Look on the bright side, they won't waste any energy during the winter by doing that.
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
244
83
18,870
I love the sound of valves but sometimes find that bass isn't as tight or tuneful as a good SS Amp can provide.

[/quote]

it is true,tube and cobination of D class comes close to that,depends on music,if acoustic music ,it is fine,if some electronic,no no no,only ss amps can cope

[/quote]

Valve amps are what we used to use before the advent of superior SS amps.
 

Alberich

New member
Mar 15, 2016
11
0
0
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all.
My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice.
Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this.
In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay.
Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future.
Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
48
4
18,545
TrevC said:
I love the sound of valves but sometimes find that bass isn't as tight or tuneful as a good SS Amp can provide.
it is true,tube and cobination of D class comes close to that,depends on music,if acoustic music ,it is fine,if some electronic,no no no,only ss amps can cope

[/quote]

Valve amps are what we used to use before the advent of superior SS amps.

[/quote]

If that were true, a lot of Hi End HiFi companies would be making SS Amps only. They're not.

Your comment is about as accurate as saying that Fettucine al Fredo is what we used to eat before the advent of superior Pot Noodle.
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
7
18,795
TrevC said:
steve_1979 said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
... After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
In my house I'm more concerned about the kettle being turned on to boil a litre of water then they go off to look a Facebook, get distracted and forget about the kettle. An hour later once it's had time to cool they'll go back to get a cup of coffee, boil the same litre of water again then get distracted by Facebook again... and so the cycle continues.
Look on the bright side, they won't waste any energy during the winter by doing that.
They're warming up the kitchen though. I don't mind that room being cooler than the rest of the house (food last longer and the fridge doesn't need to work as hard in a cool room).
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
7
18,795
Benedict_Arnold said:
... After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
In my house I'm more concerned about the kettle being turned on to boil a litre of water then they go off to look at Facebook, get distracted and forget about the kettle. An hour later once it's had time to cool they'll go back to get a cup of coffee, boil the same litre of water again then get distracted by Facebook again... and so the cycle continues.

 

busb

New member
Jun 14, 2011
58
0
0
about owning a class D (Primare A34.2) because my Panasonic plasma rather negates the effect. My preamp gets warmer than the power because it has a linear PSU instead of the switch mode the A34.2 has.

Trying telling newly married couples that they should consider have only one or no children - it's seen as a right. Exponential growth? Denial time.

As for class A/B - have valve amps dwindled out of existance? Nope. How many leave equipment powered up all night or leave half their house on standby? How many PSUs do you own that are left plugged in powering phones, printers etc? Some sense low drain & virtually switch themselves off. Perhaps someone should tell that to Chord Electronics!

As a cyclist, don't get me on the subject of the number of 4x4s! So what do we collectively do to help? Spending a hell of a lot more on education is a long term solution. My home is largely lit by Philips Hue lamps but the low running costs don't offset the cap ex until well past my snuffed-it date.

"The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds; the pessimist fears this is true."

James Branch Cabell
 

busb

New member
Jun 14, 2011
58
0
0
Alberich said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all. My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice. Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this. In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay. Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future. Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
The power consumed by vaccuum cleaners is vast compared to the few remaining Hi Fi systems so don't be too surprised if Hi Fi remains completely under the radar of commissioners!
 

Alberich

New member
Mar 15, 2016
11
0
0
busb said:
Alberich said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all. My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice. Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this. In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay. Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future. Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
The power consumed by vaccuum cleaners is vast compared to the few remaining Hi Fi systems so don't be too surprised if Hi Fi remains completely under the radar of commissioners!
Granted Hi Fi on its own may very well be too niche an area to be disproportionately affected by over regulation, but in the eyes of the commissioners it falls under the broad category of general consumer/home electronics sector along with PCs, TVs, washine mashines, the lot, which will see further and further regulation in the coming years.
We don't know what ideas are bouncing around the brains of the geniuses in Brussels.

Future legislation of this sector as a whole will put pressure on manufacturers of all electronics, Hi Fi included, to comply further, resulting in them inevitably moving away from the production of their more insufficient designs.

As i see it, Hi Fi will bear it's fair share of the burden, how can it not?
I'm not talking about the next decade or two, more into the latter half of this century possibly and the eventual demise of old dirty technology, inefficient Hi Fi amplifier topologies included.

Class A - A/B has no future.
 

Gazzip

New member
Jan 15, 2011
88
0
0
busb said:
about owning a class D (Primare A34.2) because my Panasonic plasma rather negates the effect. My preamp gets warmer than the power because it has a linear PSU instead of the switch mode the A34.2 has.

Trying telling newly married couples that they should consider have only one or no children - it's seen as a right. Exponential growth? Denial time.

As for class A/B - have valve amps dwindled out of existance? Nope. How many leave equipment powered up all night or leave half their house on standby? How many PSUs do you own that are left plugged in powering phones, printers etc? Some sense low drain & virtually switch themselves off. Perhaps someone should tell that to Chord Electronics!

As a cyclist, don't get me on the subject of the number of 4x4s! So what do we collectively do to help? Spending a hell of a lot more on education is a long term solution. My home is largely lit by Philips Hue lamps but the low running costs don't offset the cap ex until well past my snuffed-it date.

"The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds; the pessimist fears this is true."

James Branch Cabell
In the Western Europe and the US we have population growth of 0.7%. Do the limited children thing and our populations will begin to fall.

The real problems in this regard are the Indian sub-continent and Eastern Asia. Unfortunately the Chinese tried this one a few years ago by imposing fines for having more than one, and it resulted in the murder of millions of second children. Not a world I want to live in so we are going to have to try harder to fix the source of the problem...
 

nopiano

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2009
174
53
18,670
busb said:
Alberich said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all. My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice. Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this. In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay. Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future. Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
The power consumed by vaccuum cleaners is vast compared to the few remaining Hi Fi systems so don't be too surprised if Hi Fi remains completely under the radar of commissioners!
Hopefully they are too stupid to realise that cleaners are used for a few minutes but hifis can be left on for hours! Soon we'll be heating kettles with candles...
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
244
83
18,870
"Your comment is about as accurate as saying that Fettucine al Fredo is what we used to eat before the advent of superior Pot Noodle".

I expect you think a vintage Ford Popular is superior to a modern Ford Focus, but that doesn't make you right. The ultimate hifi is all solid state. Much lower distortion, better damping factor, less noise, the valve is an also ran in every department. The valves in otherwise SS equipment are there for audiophool marketing purposes. Add a couple of pointless valves to a CD player and double the price, the audiophool will buy it and claim it sounds better.
 

Alberich

New member
Mar 15, 2016
11
0
0
nopiano said:
busb said:
Alberich said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all. My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice. Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this. In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay. Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future. Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
The power consumed by vaccuum cleaners is vast compared to the few remaining Hi Fi systems so don't be too surprised if Hi Fi remains completely under the radar of commissioners!
Hopefully they are too stupid to realise that cleaners are used for a few minutes but hifis can be left on for hours!  Soon we'll be heating kettles with candles...
Some systems spend their lives powered up indefinitely.
Not talking standby mode either.
I suspect it's the minority though.
 

manix

New member
May 31, 2016
7
0
0
Alberich said:
nopiano said:
busb said:
Alberich said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all. My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice. Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this. In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay. Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future. Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
The power consumed by vaccuum cleaners is vast compared to the few remaining Hi Fi systems so don't be too surprised if Hi Fi remains completely under the radar of commissioners!
Hopefully they are too stupid to realise that cleaners are used for a few minutes but hifis can be left on for hours! Soon we'll be heating kettles with candles...
Some systems spend their lives powered up indefinitely. Not talking standby mode either. I suspect it's the minority though.
It's a great way to shorten the life of your amps.
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
0
0
manix said:
Alberich said:
nopiano said:
busb said:
Alberich said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all. My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice. Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this. In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay. Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future. Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
The power consumed by vaccuum cleaners is vast compared to the few remaining Hi Fi systems so don't be too surprised if Hi Fi remains completely under the radar of commissioners!
Hopefully they are too stupid to realise that cleaners are used for a few minutes but hifis can be left on for hours! Soon we'll be heating kettles with candles...
Some systems spend their lives powered up indefinitely. Not talking standby mode either. I suspect it's the minority though.
It's a great way to shorten the life of your amps.
Strangely, no.

Most components fail because of mechanical reasons, and it is the thermal shock and inrush current at switch on that causes them to fail. Electrolytics are an exception and will dry out quicker in a warm environment, so if you have a class A toaster, it would make sense to keep it off when not in use.
 

richardw42

New member
May 2, 2010
299
0
0
Picking up on the population growth. A one child policy per couple would effectively mean a large population decrease. To enable population stability each couple needs to produce two children. I read a piece some years ago that among traditional Anglo Saxon Brits, there were actually only 1.9 children born to a couple.
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
7
18,795
richardw42 said:
Picking up on the population growth. A one child policy per couple would effectively mean a large population decrease.
I agree in principal that would be ideal but the question is how do you enforce it without causing more problems?
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
48
4
18,545
TrevC said:
"Your comment is about as accurate as saying that Fettucine al Fredo is what we used to eat before the advent of superior Pot Noodle".

I expect you think a vintage Ford Popular is superior to a modern Ford Focus, but that doesn't make you right. The ultimate hifi is all solid state. Much lower distortion, better damping factor, less noise, the valve is an also ran in every department. The valves in otherwise SS equipment are there for audiophool marketing purposes. Add a couple of pointless valves to a CD player and double the price, the audiophool will buy it and claim it sounds better.
Yet the sound that some pure class A Valve Amps produce is sublime. - Funny that.
 

richardw42

New member
May 2, 2010
299
0
0
steve_1979 said:
richardw42 said:
Picking up on the population growth. A one child policy per couple would effectively mean a large population decrease.
I agree in principal that would be ideal but the question is how do you enforce it without causing more problems?
im not endorsing it at all. Just saying what the result of such a policy would be. You could cut the population significantly within 3/4 generations and that is exactly what we don't want.
 

Al ears

Moderator
manix said:
Alberich said:
nopiano said:
busb said:
Alberich said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
I shall consider buying a Class D amp. Until then it's Class A or no class at all. My little hi-fi isn't going to kill the planet. After all, the brats almost certainly burn more juice leaving the pantry light on than I shall ever use listening to my stereo.
I suppose I'm trying to gauge what is the level of likelihood that future fans of class A will be deprived that choice. Future generations of audiophiles may have their hands tied on this. In 100 years from now audiophiles may not have the luxury to choose class A, and for better or for worse, class D and no doubt other topologies, will be the mainstay. Class A will become something uttererd only by ageing audiophiles and connoisseurs of vintage kit and ultimately resigned to history.

Look at the EU energy commissions ruling on vacuum cleaners for precedence. Who knows what regulations will have to imposed in the future. Some may find this tone alarmist in nature but be warned lovers of the pure current, the end is near!
The power consumed by vaccuum cleaners is vast compared to the few remaining Hi Fi systems so don't be too surprised if Hi Fi remains completely under the radar of commissioners!
Hopefully they are too stupid to realise that cleaners are used for a few minutes but hifis can be left on for hours! Soon we'll be heating kettles with candles...
Some systems spend their lives powered up indefinitely. Not talking standby mode either. I suspect it's the minority though.
It's a great way to shorten the life of your amps.
Sure is. ;-)
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,232
4
19,195
Any future upgrade of my amp (or amp/DAC) will almost certainly be class D or class A/B.

I have spent time (more than once) thinking about valves but it always comes down to the heat and the energy they burn and the continuing need for replacements. Too 'needy'.

Sods Law will ensure that valves always need replacing at [financially] inconvenient times unless I become some kind of valve 'hoarder'. (I don't want to be that person.)

I don't want an amp the size of a small suitcase, or one that can't be played during the summer without sitting it on a table outside and running cables back into the living room!

I don't want to pay two-to-three (or more) times the price of a good conventional amplifier just to get what's considered to be the most 'entry level' of valve designs.

I don't have the nostalgia for valves. My earliest memories of valves from the late 1960s are associated with our old rental TV regularly breaking down and needing the repairman to replace them. So - even as pre-school child - I grew up associating valves with break-downs and repair. By the time I bought my first television (a Sony 14" Trintron) they were all solid state (apart from the CRT itself) and reliable. That first Trinitron lasted about 20 years before we lost track of it, still working perfectly, after donating it to a 'bring and buy' sale!
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
244
83
18,870
Infiniteloop said:
TrevC said:
"Your comment is about as accurate as saying that Fettucine al Fredo is what we used to eat before the advent of superior Pot Noodle".

I expect you think a vintage Ford Popular is superior to a modern Ford Focus, but that doesn't make you right. The ultimate hifi is all solid state. Much lower distortion, better damping factor, less noise, the valve is an also ran in every department. The valves in otherwise SS equipment are there for audiophool marketing purposes. Add a couple of pointless valves to a CD player and double the price, the audiophool will buy it and claim it sounds better.
Yet the sound that some pure class A Valve Amps produce is sublime. - Funny that.
They produce the asymmetric distortion that pleases you for some peculiar reason. Of course it can sound good on non-demanding music.
 

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