cheap-Fi

[Wil]

The THD profile can be modeled (as per Bob Carver) so you can mimic the sound.

This "Bob Carver" you're fond of citing, my memory has led me to locate where I've seen the name before. Tim de Paravicini (in a Public Post) makes fun of him (does this mean Bob is but a joke within-the-industry/engineering community?):


@davidf The highlighted text is to especially amuse you.

 

[shadders]

This "Bob Carver" you're fond of citing, my memory has led me to locate where I've seen the name before. Tim de Paravicini (in a Public Post) makes fun of him (does this mean Bob is but a joke within-the-industry/engineering community?):
View attachment 2924

@davidf The highlighted text is to especially amuse you.

Hi,
Not sure if you are linking the mention of Bob Carver at the top of the thread and the copying of the C1000 issue. Bob Carver is a designer so would not copy other peoples designs.

When i mention Bob Carver, it is to refer to what he accomplished in relation to amplifier modeling, and nothing to do with who he is.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[davidf]

The whole budget vs high end is usually a preference thing, as is the opinions of those that prefer cheaper systems. Personally I’m not the sort of person who is particularly interested in excessively high end products, but they do usually measure better and sound more accurate, but not everyone likes accurate - which is why they prefer the sound of cheaper components. I think manufacturers and distributors taking £100k+ systems to shows is pointless. They’re never shown off to their full capabilities, so end up sounding very disappointing. I’ve heard a number of systems I didnt like at shows, and they’re usually very expensive ones with extravagant front ends, bu pt having worked at shows I understand how hard it is to get systems sound anywhere near what they’re actually capable of.

 

[Deleted member 196519]

I am no longer a fan of wireless speakers if I have ever been. Not a fan of Bluetooth connection for good quality sound either, give me cables and leads.

 

[shadders]

Hi,
I think people confuse subjective preferences with accuracy.

The Relentless amplifier THD profile for the money is extremely poor, whereas a Benchmark AHB2 has such low THD for the money (£3.3k).

There are loudspeakers using drivers that have cone resonance/breakup causing spikes in THD, and loudspeakers using those drivers are deemed as extracting more detail. The resonance/breakup gives the illusion of more detail.

Some of the best drivers which have the lowest distortion are reasonably cheap compared to the drivers which are thought of as being better. (SB Acoustics Aluminium cone versus Satori (2x price))

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[Wil]

Carver accomplished (almost) nothing for consumers. Are you arguing for counterfeiting (the sound)? Name some current day products sold for that (their availability and user response).

When i mention Bob Carver, it is to refer to what he accomplished in relation to amplifier modeling, and nothing to do with who he is.

From your own Wiki link, it leads to Carver Challenge Responses, an excerpt:
"The BC, Give Us Your State-of-the-Art Stuff If You've Got It, Challenge
It is hard for the high-end audio community to reconcile BC's contradictory behavior. Here is a man of formidable design talents who makes some of the most extraordinary claims for his products, uses a defunct audio publication to validate his claims, won't submit his products to the underground press for review, and makes periodic amplifier challenges. We are still waiting for the Carver Amplifier Challenge to begin.

For the serious practitioner of our art, this is how the high end audio community works: Any designer who thinks he's got the right stuff, technically and musically, submits his products for review, taking a risk with the underground press. It can be observed that, in spite of disagreements, drama, and a great deal of imperfections, the underground press has a unique integrity, and is very consistent in its judgments. Why doesn't BC stop copying others, and create his own assault on the state of the art?"


What has Carver accomplished since (1985)?

 

[shadders]

Carver accomplished (almost) nothing for consumers. Are you arguing for counterfeiting (the sound)? Name some current day products sold for that (their availability and user response).

From your own Wiki link, it leads to Carver Challenge Responses, an excerpt:
"The BC, Give Us Your State-of-the-Art Stuff If You've Got It, Challenge
It is hard for the high-end audio community to reconcile BC's contradictory behavior. Here is a man of formidable design talents who makes some of the most extraordinary claims for his products, uses a defunct audio publication to validate his claims, won't submit his products to the underground press for review, and makes periodic amplifier challenges. We are still waiting for the Carver Amplifier Challenge to begin.

For the serious practitioner of our art, this is how the high end audio community works: Any designer who thinks he's got the right stuff, technically and musically, submits his products for review, taking a risk with the underground press. It can be observed that, in spite of disagreements, drama, and a great deal of imperfections, the underground press has a unique integrity, and is very consistent in its judgments. Why doesn't BC stop copying others, and create his own assault on the state of the art?"


What has Carver accomplished since (1985)?

Hi,
Not sure what you are trying to achieve here. The link you provided is from a web article in Stereophile 2009, which is from 1985 article. The cut and paste is the readers response (letters) as of 1986.

Bob Carver proved he could copy the sound of another amplifier, and that it is the distortion profile that creates the sound signature of an amplifier.

To answer the question you have asked, he has achieved 15 patents as well as his own audio business.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[Wil]

You're tiring.

The link you provided is from a web article in Stereophile 2009, which is from 1985 article. The cut and paste is the readers response (letters) as of 1986.

Look, it’s from your own Wiki link, it leads…:


@shadders Well, you need to either go back to my 1st Post that starts this Thread, or just understand this simplification:

cheap-Fi is just cheap—I buy it. We can certainly be good (well informed, discerning) consumers of it.

For this Thread, we should all name products for consideration rather than…

For example, I'd be happy to read and discuss any products mentioned by WHF, award-winners or not.

 

[Wil]

Home

But you'll still need £10,998 if you want to buy a pair...

www.whathifi.com

WHF had News it, but not a review. 2 rival mags did… 1 said in Conclusion:
“For some people the TuneTot will never make sense – as the price for such a compact speaker will forever be better spent on something larger and more imposing – but I take a different view. Short of a lottery win, I am resigned that my listening space will never be vast and will always be somewhere that serves other functions. The idea that the TuneTot delivers jaw-dropping sonics regardless of its surroundings is an intoxicating one and for some lucky people represents the start of an astonishing journey into Wilson Audio ownership.”

Example in extremes
A speaker like that $10.000 TuneTot bookshelves from Wilson Audio are in my opinion where the term high end falls short. I would seriously challenge that their sound isn't in any aspect better than any bookshelf speaker for under a 1000 and even under 400 euros. So let's say they give sound for a reasonably priced bookshelf. Then adding 9600 for design is rediculous.

Unless.. you have too much to spend and treat it as a work of art stating that it is worth its price, the same way any other object sells for unlikely prices. But I don't see that for the TuneTot. Also given design, they seem totally doable for 700 euro.

Recently, my brother-in-law, Eric, sought a new pair of speakers. He wanted Debut B5.2, a 2021 "Best standmount speaker under £300":

Elac Debut B5.2 review

What Hi-Fi? Awards 2021 winner. These are very talented speakers for the money

www.whathifi.com

However, something else was cheaper—so he has ordered those instead. More about this another time.

 

[AJM1981]

Home

But you'll still need £10,998 if you want to buy a pair...

www.whathifi.com

WHF had News it, but not a review. 2 rival mags did… 1 said in Conclusion:
“For some people the TuneTot will never make sense – as the price for such a compact speaker will forever be better spent on something larger and more imposing – but I take a different view. Short of a lottery win, I am resigned that my listening space will never be vast and will always be somewhere that serves other functions. The idea that the TuneTot delivers jaw-dropping sonics regardless of its surroundings is an intoxicating one and for some lucky people represents the start of an astonishing journey into Wilson Audio ownership.”




Recently, my brother-in-law, Eric, sought a new pair of speakers. He wanted Debut B5.2, a 2021 "Best standmount speaker under £300":

Elac Debut B5.2 review

What Hi-Fi? Awards 2021 winner. These are very talented speakers for the money

www.whathifi.com

However, something else was cheaper—so he has ordered those instead. More about this another time.

It smells like a text influenced by the PR department of Wilson Audio. Non bounded reviewers like Andrew Robinson mentioned they were branded as not qualified to review the brand's products. Darko had a hard time justifying its price to quality aspect up to a point that he just disabled the user comments. Which kind of tells there was some force of agreement on some rules.

For me it is ok, if one likes these and is willing to pay that price. I also like the tunetot design on its own. But something like Wilson will probably get less resistance on channels which purely focus on exclusivity with a higher price tag.

 

[Al ears]

It's not just the Wilson's of this world.....
The entry level Magico A1s are £9998....

 

[Edbostan]

Hi,
This is part of my point, although i did not state it. That, the law of diminishing returns assumes that the more you pay the better it is.

This is not the case. You can take a cheap well designed amplifier, modify its distortion profile, and obtain the same sound as a high end piece of equipment.

All we have is a different sounding pieces of equipment. People are conditioned to believe that more money means better.

Regards,
Shadders.

Years ago I was in Harrods sound and vision department featuring a £20,000 Linn system where the speaker cables were the size of hosepipes. I found the sound not at all to my liking and preferred my £300 JVC midi system.

 

[AJM1981]

It's not just the Wilson's of this world.....
The entry level Magico A1s are £9998....

Aw yez, the Magico A1

 

[Rui]

Hi-Fi, of course, stands for high-fidelity. And much of what we can buy amounts to cheap-fidelity (whatever you choose that to mean)?

It’s pointless, for me, to disparage cheap-Fi. Because I buy it (perhaps not as often now [because my collection is plentiful]).

Well, yes, KI Ruby series I own is certainly cheap-Fi. As is the perhaps less contentious America sourced BDP-S3700 I use to play region-A Criterion Blu-ray.

In certain contexts, I'm all for celebrating cheap-Fi.​

just a remark theres cheap devices and it´s not related with hi-fi or low-fi the concept is only refering to sound quality ,not prices and low-fi today is hard to find only in those speakers in super markets that play music and makes anoucements as an example ,but there´s lot´s of other places that have low-fi sound, as an example some old tape recorders ,cheap ones ,you recorded a cassette from a radio station and when playing it in a hi-fi system the tweeters don´t send any sound or some hum. this is what could be called low-fi . But cheap-fi can be e new concept created by you, a system with good sound that is cheap , regards

 

[Rui]

Hi,
Cheaper hifi is no worse than high end. Having price bands is just that, a price band, not a sound quality band.

Paying more does not provide a better sounding piece of equipment. High end is just bling, or veblen goods marketing.

Regards,
Shadders.

with SONY is just like that, or better IT´S A SONY!!!but in a entire year catalog the most expensive everything could be good, atention, COULD...but talking without depreciate a brand .Why in late 80´s or early 90´s sony catalogs for the U.K most of the components had diferent and much better specifications with the same reference of other european country? ,that tells something. i myself in early 90´s was using a system i use since 76 with some new components that i choose to buy in the 80´s or late 70´s, and in 93 i bought a integrated amplifier from sony ES or esprit series the tc-f690ES in U.K and Portugal it had two power transformers and 4 capaciteurs for the sound in the rest of european countries only one power transformer and two capaciteurs for sound and in England a magazine for the first time talked about a sony component, a deck of cassettes the TC-K611S(or close to this) it had open/close nice specifications on recording and playing quality and the new at the time dolby S but while i was using sony for the first time and the deck was still from the 70´s i went to a store from a friend of mine and looked to the catalog where i could see the deck and a litle magazine apart with the specifications, well no open/close just eject ,the specifications in quality of recording and play were much beneath the ones in England from the same year and a lot of people that saw the review in the magazine in Portugal and bought the deck ,most of them never looked into the specifications,that´s how SONY works, in the 80´s i bought a yellow radio o listen to music on the beach and it had a good design and till today either than being splash proof didn´t play a station ,you might say ,in that beach it had bad reception but i worked in a radio station and before entering at a distance of 500 meters i was in a cofee but in the street and seeing the broadcast antenna also no signal and it worked it had the reception antena working but till today since mid 80´s i am still waiting

 

[Wil]

But cheap-fi can be e new concept created by you, a system with good sound that is cheap , regards

I styled it as cheap-Fi, but if the c is capitalised, whenever in capital, then…

 

[DCarmi]

I am no longer a fan of wireless speakers if I have ever been. Not a fan of Bluetooth connection for good quality sound either, give me cables and leads.

They have their place. I couldn't get a hifi system into my kitchen even if I were allowed. But if I am cooking my Home Hub Max is good enough for radio or music and I get recipes and timers thrown in. I can even cast video to it.

I get what you say though. I would not choose to sit down a "listen" to my music on it but as background noise, it's fine.

 

[Wil]

Recently, my brother-in-law, Eric, sought a new pair of speakers. He wanted Debut B5.2, a 2021 "Best standmount speaker under £300":

Elac Debut B5.2 review

What Hi-Fi? Awards 2021 winner. These are very talented speakers for the money

www.whathifi.com

However, something else was cheaper—so he has ordered those instead. More about this another time.

Eric has bought a used pair of B6.2, after some days listening, he’s “pretty happy” and I've replied with comments its designer once made:


Also recalling Jones' Q&A, addressing cheap-Fi:
"SM: I think it’s absolutely outstanding that you’ve provided such a high-quality product at such an affordable price. Do you think it’s important that the high-end audio industry provides such affordable products?

AJ: I think it’s crucial to provide such products. You only have to look at the comments when expensive hi-fi is mentioned on the blogs. I would say that such articles receive almost universal condemnation and derision in the comments sections. We need that to change, and the only way is to provide product at low enough entry price that we attract new blood onto the upgrade path, so that they begin to understand that listening to hi-fi can be intensely rewarding and that the expensive product does ultimately justify itself in the performance it provides.
It’s also important that the very high end companies find some way to provide this, to show that we care about encouraging new listeners and that we are not just an elitist club."

 

[Wil]

I’ll mention myself (since no else yet has) that the-next-purchase we’ve in mind may be worthwhile (trying and) buying (and, hopefully, really enjoying) right now (or soon). Because (we’ve likely deeply studied the product and) it’s likely cheap-Fi, but will yield a substantive improvement from before (its addition into our listening room).

If money really is the biggest concern, Black Friday was an opportunity… Let’s now look forward to the post-Christmas sales.


Well, my brother-in-law sent me his Diamond 12.1 because they were discounted in my country. He’ll collect when…

 

[plastic penguin]

Think we need to clarify: Cheap-Fi or affordable-fi? IMO there's a big difference

 

[Friesiansam]

Price, cheap as chips, super expensive or, somewhere in between, is relevant only in as much as it determines whether you can afford to buy. It's not the price that matters, it's whether you are happy with the sound you hear.

I'm happy with what I have and, if someone thinks it cost too much, or not enough, that's their problem not mine.

 

[twinkletoes]

Think we need to clarify: Cheap-Fi or affordable-fi? IMO there's a big difference

Is there?

That's like going to a 99 p shop and buying a branded bag of jelly sweats and then going to Waitrose and buying their own brand jelly sweets for 99p. Which do you put more value into and are you getting better value for money over than the other? what is the better overall experience? which product is the high end product?

cheap and affordable mean exactly the same thing and in this context mean nothing as the retailer governs the price to the end consumer when purely looking at the price which is what the general consumer will do.

 

[Wil]

Hi-Fi = Commerce

I’d like to let readers think/debate that for, say, 48 hours before I write more.

 

[plastic penguin]

Is there?

That's like going to a 99 p shop and buying a branded bag of jelly sweats and then going to Waitrose and buying their own brand jelly sweets for 99p. Which do you put more value into and are you getting better value for money over than the other? what is the better overall experience? which product is the high end product?

cheap and affordable mean exactly the same thing and in this context mean nothing as the retailer governs the price to the end consumer when purely looking at the price which is what the general consumer will do.

Cheap-fi is something that's been sat in auntie Mauds cupboard for the past 30-years and sold on a auction site. Affordable-fi is good new or nearly new budget or entry-level components from a reputable dealer, whether it's online or high street. That's how I see it.

 

[shadders]

Hi,
Cheap-Fi is where you purchase from the far east a product that functions, but if you purchased the product from the UK, then the UK postage for delivery would cost more than the unit cost from the far east.

Hifi purchased from the UK vendors is not cheap-fi. It may be denoted budget, but it can still be expensive to some.

Regards,
Shadders.